Hate for Erebus and Kor Phaeron?

[TheDarkApostle]

Well, I think the Alpha Legion went very well knowingly as well.

 

TDA

[A D-B]

Personally, I just don't like them because they're part of a larger trend from the IA articles of making the Primarchs' turn to Chaos the result of manipulation by faceless, mustache-twirling Grand Vizier types. I think an outright majority of the Traitor Primarchs, at this point, were tricked into serving Chaos. To me, this makes the Heresy more absurd than tragic.

 

I sort of agree. For the record, I know some of the HH team do, too.

 

Where Lorgar is concerned, I think it works on a lot of levels, especially when we consider how early in the Heresy it is. Yes, he was manipulated by Kor Phaeron and Erebus. He was young, naive - a demigod struggling to understand his place in a species he was technically never part of - and as a trusting soul yearning for both acceptance and brotherhood, he was open to manipulation. I certainly don't think that made him stupid or easily manipulated, given who raised him, and the fact they fought a global civil war together.

 

Moving on into the Heresy, Lorgar starts to take steps to learn the truth himself. Maybe the gods are lying to him, and maybe they're not. They certainly tell him the truth sometimes, and clearly lie at others. Ultimately, these are his first steps to damnation, but neither the reason nor the rhyme behind it all. They're the baby steps, not the meat of the journey. At Isstvan, Lorgar makes a specific point in confronting Corax. Firstly, he knows that if he ever faces Corax, he's likely to die. He knows it from daemonic prophecy, as well as the fact he's not a match for his brother. But he can no longer stand by while his sons bleed and die for him in a battle they can never win. Secondly, more importantly, he's defying the wills of Erebus and Kor Phaeron, who imply in the text that they have all these plans for him, and he needs to follow their course of action. Lorgar doesn't care. He states clearly that they may have found the gods, but humanity is supposed to exist in union with them, not become slaves to Chaos. Worship is about respecting the divine, not enslavement to it. So he's casting off the shackles of those who mentored him, as well. At this point, he now believes he understands Chaos better than they do anyway.

 

After Isstvan, the Lorgar we're starting to see (in Aurelian and soon in The Butcher's Nails), all leading into my next HH novel, is one who has faced the fact - after nearly dying to Corax - that if they restrain themselves at all, then they're going to blow this. He plans Calth and sends his most competent leaders to deliver that hammer blow, while he does... something else, something currently a secret... with the rest of his Legion.

 

He's very much out of the shadow of being manipulated, with his own ideas, his own goals, and his own understanding of Chaos that ultimately grows to eclipse anything Erebus and Kor Phaeron can understand. In fact, Lorgar is piecing together some huge parts of the puzzle, to become a major reason the Traitor Legions, and the Traitor Primarchs themselves, become what they are by the time of the 40K setting.

 

I was really keen on a character arc with Lorgar. I liked the idea of a primarch who started at A, went through B, C and D, all the way through to X, Y and Z. It rang truer and more interesting to me than most of the primarch depictions we see, which is that they're all essentially perfect and at the top of their games all the way through. I like the one brother who doesn't reach his full potential until he's uncontrollably committed to the Heresy, and all shackles fall off. With Lorgar, I wanted him to learn more, get better, grow stronger, reflecting the rise of Chaos itself in humanity. He's the thermometer for Chaos levels in the human race, if you will.

 

On a related note, where Angron is concerned, his coming "fall" is completely different to anything we've seen before, either. We know Angron essentially falls willingly, but with a certain degree of willful ignorance. He doesn't have the same knowledge of Chaos that Lorgar possesses, but on the flip side of the coin, Angron is driven by emotion rather than hope, faith and ambition, the way Lorgar is. Angron's fall is almost a natural endgame to who he is (and, well, what the Butcher's Nails have made him). Still, it has the potential to be deep and involved, because there's a lot of nuance in the process of how he'd fall. He's still a ferociously powerful, intelligent, godlike being, even if his higher function is impaired to some degree by artificial rage. Even if Angron sensed he was being manipulated, there's the chance he simply wouldn't care if it served his own ends, his own goal, anyway. And in that sense, it's not really manipulation, it's deceiving the deceiver.

 

I love the opposing aspects in their respective falls. That's why they're such a good foundation for stories of brotherhood in opposition and reluctant cooperation. One was a lost boy, growing from an idealistic schemer right through to a zealous crusader who sees the world behind the veil; the other is almost an avatar of ignorance about the secret world, but embodies Chaos taking root in the physical realm through suffering, abuse, and unrestrained emotion.

 

 

tl;dr -- I like to think we're slowly moving away from primarchs who fall through treachery and/or being lied to. Remember, it's early days - the Legions are barely even showing signs of Chaos yet.

[Captain Tezdal]

On a related note, where Angron is concerned, his coming "fall" is completely different to anything we've seen before, either. We know Angron essentially falls willingly, but with a certain degree of willful ignorance. He doesn't have the same knowledge of Chaos that Lorgar possesses, but on the flip side of the coin, Angron is driven by emotion rather than hope, faith and ambition, the way Lorgar is. Angron's fall is almost a natural endgame to who he is (and, well, what the Butcher's Nails have made him). Still, it has the potential to be deep and involved, because there's a lot of nuance in the process of how he'd fall. He's still a ferociously powerful, intelligent, godlike being, even if his higher function is impaired to some degree by artificial rage. Even if Angron sensed he was being manipulated, there's the chance he simply wouldn't care if it served his own ends, his own goal, anyway. And in that sense, it's not really manipulation, it's deceiving the deceiver.

 

tl;dr -- I like to think we're slowly moving away from primarchs who fall through treachery and/or being lied to. Remember, it's early days - the Legions are barely even showing signs of Chaos yet.

 

I wouldn't say Angron's fall is solely because of what the butchers nails and what his character made him, there's also the Big E being a complete dick upon meeting him, I hope when you write about him it's not just cause "he's angry, all the time" but the deep sorrow of having his men killed while he was absconded with by the Emperor. Essentially to me his interesting bit was he was betrayed by the Big E on their first meeting.

[A D-B]

On a related note, where Angron is concerned, his coming "fall" is completely different to anything we've seen before, either. We know Angron essentially falls willingly, but with a certain degree of willful ignorance. He doesn't have the same knowledge of Chaos that Lorgar possesses, but on the flip side of the coin, Angron is driven by emotion rather than hope, faith and ambition, the way Lorgar is. Angron's fall is almost a natural endgame to who he is (and, well, what the Butcher's Nails have made him). Still, it has the potential to be deep and involved, because there's a lot of nuance in the process of how he'd fall. He's still a ferociously powerful, intelligent, godlike being, even if his higher function is impaired to some degree by artificial rage. Even if Angron sensed he was being manipulated, there's the chance he simply wouldn't care if it served his own ends, his own goal, anyway. And in that sense, it's not really manipulation, it's deceiving the deceiver.

 

tl;dr -- I like to think we're slowly moving away from primarchs who fall through treachery and/or being lied to. Remember, it's early days - the Legions are barely even showing signs of Chaos yet.

 

I wouldn't say Angron's fall is solely because of what the butchers nails and what his character made him, there's also the Big E being a complete dick upon meeting him, I hope when you write about him it's not just cause "he's angry, all the time" but the deep sorrow of having his men killed while he was absconded with by the Emperor. Essentially to me his interesting bit was he was betrayed by the Big E on their first meeting.

 

For really reals. That's my personal fave aspect to it, too. But it's not had as much mention canonically, it's just one of several factors in his overall "decline" (they can't all turn because the Emperor is mean), and that post was already getting stupidly long (plus, it was mostly about Lorgar). I've already wasted most of this week on forums.

[Morollan]

I've already wasted most of this week on forums.

 

Well sod off and write some more novels then. :P If there's any chance of sneaking in some guest appearances by Talos and his merry bunch of murdering bar stewards that would be lovely. Night Lords - The Early Years.

 

Ta muchly.

[Liliedhe]

tl;dr -- I like to think we're slowly moving away from primarchs who fall through treachery and/or being lied to. Remember, it's early days - the Legions are barely even showing signs of Chaos yet.

 

What occurred to me is that the rebellion and the Fall to Chaos probably should be seen as two seperate issues. Most legions decide to rebel first, and then begin to eventually fall (for whatever reasons, manipulated or not). The Emperor's Children do it backwards, they are corrupted before they join the rebels. ^^ And the Word Bearers of course start to lay the groundwork in the other legions. But for the rest, it is about rebellion first, and corruption comes second.

 

MOst of the 9 Primarchs who make up the rebel side didn't do it for religion or chaos, but for reasons of their own. The fall, the real fall, is only going to come now.

 

And two say they all just fall/join because they were lied to is quite an oversimplification.

[Bearingtheword]

Thanks ADB. Love the insight I always glean from your posts.

 

I was hoping that that was the direction you were leading Lorgar in, but I have to admit that I am boggled with the seeming fact that in the 40k 'verse, as opposed to the 30k 'verse, that Lorgar is in seclusion, isolation, or whatever it seems to be. Especially after considering what you mentioned.

 

It appears, at least to the ignorant eye of some, that the manipulators seem to have him still under their respective thumbs, or at very least they still have his sons in the legion under their thumbs. I have heard it argued that Lorgar is either a: not in said seclusion/contemplation and the legion has been left to Kor, Erebus and the rest of the council, or b: Lorgar has been left completely unhappy by both his results from his daemonic ascension and his choice to follow chaos. I'm not sure what my personal opinion is on the matter. I'm kind of one of those wait and see types, to be honest. But I am hoping it's something that is ultimately revealed to us...

 

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to following the continued adventures of Lorgar, Angron and the rest....

 

~BtW

[LPetersson]

I've already wasted most of this week on forums.

 

Surely in your case that's either research or working... :-D

[Lexington]

But even then, I would say that the "tricking" arguement makes more sense than suddenly deciding that you don't like your god-father who you were grown to adore/worship/serve.

Well, sure, but I'm not suggesting they should just wake up one day and, unbidden, decide to start a galactic rebellion intended to doom the human race. I just feel like it gives the events of the Heresy more gravity if the Primarchs decide to turn to Chaos of their own volition, rather than having it thrust upon them by minions. It's not an absolute belief or anything, and the scheming underling is as much an effective storytelling device as any other when it comes to "the fall of..." storylines, but it occurs way too often in the Heresy for my tastes. Lorgar's pushed into Chaos by Kor Phaeron (and, now, Erebus as well). Typhus is now more responsible for the Death Guard's embrace of Nurgle than Mortarion is. Fulgrim's different in so much as he's corrupted by a daemon sword, but at the same time, it's just as much a removal of a Primarch's agency. Heck, even Horus, the traitor's traitor, gets taken in by Erebus' song and dance routine. It gets to be a little much, y'know?

 

[wall o' AaronSpeak]

So, that was...a crazy amount of info. Illuminating and interesting stuff, Aaron. Seriously, thanks.

 

As a retroactive caveat of sorts, I actually wouldn't apply this criticism to the Heresy novels. It's well understood that y'all are working with what came before, and probably the most prominent piece of that pre-novel material is the Index Astartes series, which is where most of the "tricked" Primarch lore came from, IIRC. If there's some movement afoot to make the Primarchs' actions more their own (something that definitely came across in The First Heretic), then, hey, that's awesome! Like you said, tho, the novels are still set pretty early in the Heresy, so the less fleshed-out IAs still form a lot of...I dunno, "current" cannon? There's been enough horseplay on that topic lately, tho, so I'll just hope that the idea gets through, and start backing away before someone brings up little bearded men on bikes or half-Eldar Librarians...

[minigun762]

Well, sure, but I'm not suggesting they should just wake up one day and, unbidden, decide to start a galactic rebellion intended to doom the human race. I just feel like it gives the events of the Heresy more gravity if the Primarchs decide to turn to Chaos of their own volition, rather than having it thrust upon them by minions.

 

That I fully agree with. It seems more tragic, more of a true betrayal if it is intentional and knowing instead of being tricked or decieved into it.

 

Though with the Death Guard, I was under the impression their betrayal was based more on necessity than any person. I could be mistaken though as I've never been a huge DG/Nurgle fan so I tend not to spend a lot of time on them.

[Lexington]

Though with the Death Guard, I was under the impression their betrayal was based more on necessity than any person.

It's been a bit since I read the full story, but, IIRC, it's now Typhus who sold them out, more or less. He'd already sold his soul to Nurgle long before, and intentionally dropped the Death Guard into an unnavigatable section of the Warp in order to let all sorts of warp-contagions in, forcing Mortarion to etc., etc.