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Seraphims and Seraphims Corrupt


Syricus Sweister

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Hi all! This is my first time on B&C, although I've been a guest for about little while now.

This is my DIY chapters. I've already got the models for these chapters (as in bought and in some cases painted) it's just that they require conversions to the standard marine model so it's a bit time consuming. Before any of you get worried, I've been playing 40k for years and do know what I'm doing B)

 

But the point of this is, to ask you what you think of the concepts of these chapters. To summarize, The two chapters are the Seraphims and a Chaos breakaway faction of them called the Seraphims Corrupt. These two, although they're just the same history wise, have their fluff broadly worked out, just not really detailed.

 

Anyway here goes:

Just so you're warned, this is a long read. Also you can just skip the Wall of text and go to the bottom to read the bullet points.

 

Seraphims (Kinda working title, definitely want it based around Angels)

 

Are a Blood Angels Successor Chapter in history only, they have no connection to the kin whatsoever (so despite what Matt Ward says, these guys did not help the Blood Angels in the defence of Baal, they didn't even get the message). This is due to being cut off from the rest of the galaxy by some inconveniently place warp storms. They've a cluster to themselves because of this, although the planets are populated by Xenos (the hostile, codex supported kind). They've been there quite a while, several thousand years (haven't decided on a founding, although I'm either thinking the 3rd/4th founding or perhaps the Cursed 21st founding if I compact the timeline by a fair bit) and have developed their own culture. They came to the cluster pretty quickly after their founding due to trying to claim more territory for the Imperium. Humans were already settled in the cluster (not having been reached in the great crusade) to be beckoned into the Emperor's graces. However after their arrival warp storms quickly cut them off from the known space and with no way back and with their objective not even started yet, they decided to wait it out. Their Power Armour is Silver with Golden Helmets, Left Arms, Trims, Belts and Shins. (I would show you the B&C SM Painter images for them, or Real life photos I took of the ones I've done so far, but I don't know how). They're unique in that they all have Angel wings (not very original I know) which vary in length depending on the individual marine prowess. They're all also total narcissists with Gargantuan egos who, if it wasn't for their current predicament of continuously being attacked (and their wings of course), would base their ranks on who consistently looked the the best. Seriously, I want to stress that part. Totally hung up on their vanity! I think this quote is perfect to describe them:

 

"Have you ever wondered if there was more to life, other than being really, really, ridiculously good looking?" - Derek Zoolander

 

But I'm not trying to turn them into a joke who carry mirrors instead of chainswords. They're hard fighting Space marines all the same, they just got an air of Fulgrim about them (pre-snake days). Also to distance them from the whole Vampire thing, they've also mutated away from their Red Thirst and Black Rage. Rules wise however, I do use the standard Blood Angels codex for them.

 

Their main planet is Arcadia, in a solar system of other 4 planets 1 of which was turned into a forgeworld by them. This system was the first the came across. The Warp storms never ceased and so at the close of the 41st Millennium they're still stuck where they are. Due to their objective, the Seraphims took control of the planets and started spreading the Emperors will. After it became clear that they couldn't leave, they decided to 'civilize' the local populous and made it their Fortress Monastery. The Arcadians and local system inhabitants had a industrial age level of technology, however they'd found clean methods of industrialization so the planets didn't become any less appealing for the Seraphims, all of which were beautiful expansive. planets. With limited supplies and no way of being resupplied, the Chapter master of the time set his Master of the Forge and Techmarines to turn one of the planets to turn out as large an industrial out put as possible. Needless to say the technology levels of the locals jumped greatly, as the Seraphims had techmarines and artificers who understood the technology themselves and were willing to share them.

 

Eventually after about a thousand years or so, the Seraphims were completely worshiped as Gods themselves and at least partially believed it too. (now if they were founded in the 3rd/4th foundings, they'll have been founded and lost before the Ecclesiarchy, which means the words HERESEY! and HERETIC!, the concept of Big E being a God and the concept of blind faith towards him wouldn't be drilled into them which makes this part easier to explain. While they indeed wouldn't so easily stop believing that service towards him and the Imperium is what they live for, with a mellennia without any contact, an indigenous population with no idea who he or the Imperium are, whom have just benefited from them greatly and are much inclined to serve the huge space men made for fighting with a small yet larger than what they have ever dreamed or imagined, no way of getting back to said Imperium and not Holy Emperor and as noted in everyone of them: Gargantuan egos, I think this is plausible enough). Eventually the Arcadia System flourished and had full contact, none of the neighboring planets had known that other humans existed. However, not everything was perfect. With continuous fighting with the local Xenos (Orks, an Eldar Maiden World and some Dark Eldar webway pirates to name the ones I'm actually going to think about) the Seraphims were heavily stuck in. The local humans however, were not militarized beyond policing themselves, the Seraphims were the standing army. Eventually the planet the first Master of the Forge set down on and built upon, was turned into a full fledged Forgeworld and provided all the needs for the other 4 planets in the solar system as well as replacement weaponry, vehicles and ships (although none were standard space marine design anymore, the Techmarines improvised when they needed to) for the Seraphims.

 

Eventually, due to genetic mutations that the Apothecaries could not understand or deter (and were experiencing themselves), the Seraphims all developed angelic wings (in turn caused by the proximity to the Warp storms). The wingspan varied from marine to marine, however it soon became apparent that the marines with the greatest combat prowess had the larger wings. When this came to light, the Seraphims reorganized themselves, with wingspan determining rank. The exception to this was the Apothecaries and the Techmarines who kept their current system. With these wings, Terminator Armour (which the Seraphims had very little to begin with) became unwearable for those used to them. For the Vanguard Veteran squads, Jump Packs became unusable, but thankfully also unnecessary (this is displayed on the models themselves thanks to my conversions, the Sternguard also have usable wingspans, but since they're not supposed to use jumpacks, for the few I've done, they are folded in. None of the models use backpacks, other than the normal Assault Marines using Jump Packs). After several centuries, the same began happening to the unmodified humans of the Arcadia system, those strong and pure of heart developed wings of their own, although not to the size of the Seraphims themselves. It was from these humans that the Seraphims began to recruit new marines from. Since the Seraphims had been defending themselves this entire time, they had done away with the 10th company of scouts and had adopted a new station for the newest members to test themselves. These neophytes had been called the Young Ones rather than Scouts, although all equipment the was the same, just the tactics and the name changed (Rules wise they are still scouts, it's just fluff-wise they don't infiltrate, they just back up and assist the Seraphims).

 

When one of the Children, as the 'normal' humans were being called, developed wings, Seraphims and local police would turn up at the home of the "Chosen" and drag them away to "ascend". (it finally starts to get grimdark here although its very little at this point in the description ;) don't worry, it gets worse) These would be indoctrinated into completely forgetting about their life before their ascension. Regardless of family and social standing the chosen would be taken after wings had been made know. The Seraphims didn't only take their young ones from the youngest chosen however, if one of the children became a chosen, they would be taken to ascension regardless of their age. Like all Space Marines chapters, the survival rate for the chosen was low. However this wasn't a problem. With 5 planets to gain chosen from (and as the centuries grew, the Seraphims and the Children would begin to populate the neighboring solar systems too) and chosen levels rising as good behaviorism was encouraged and insisted upon, the Seraphims ranks replenished any losses. As they went deeper into the cluster however, they found more and more dangers. Each homeworld of the Arcadia system had it's fair share of orks to ward off, and with Dark Eldar raids to defend from, the Seraphims were stretched. Only a company or so could claim new territory at a time and some worlds proved more dangerous than others, forcing the company to retreat and await reinforcements, or abandon the planet all together until their force was large enough to restart.

 

After several centuries of stalemate and struggle, more worlds were successfully colonized and after a millennia, the Seraphims had completely colonized the two closest Systems and had most of the next three. For each conquered system, each would have one planet turned into a forgeworld to provide for the system and its garrison of Seraphims. Beyond these six systems, there was nothing within the Seraphims' detectable range for colonization or discovery. So the Seraphims turned to security now more than ever. With orks on nearly every planet, Dark Eldar Raids persistent and able to strike from many locations, not to mention there were Web Way Gates on several planets, one system actually containing an Eldar Maidenworld (this planet remained so hard to even get a foothold on that it was left to not be colonized, although the Eldar still acted very hostile and would take action against any approaching vessel) the Seraphims were never at peace.

 

Around two hundred Seraphims, however, wanted to continue exploring. These were led by the Third company captain who was largely responsible for all the conquering (guy's ego was so Gargantuan that he just couldn't be satisfied with staying, or even finishing the job. He just had to go get more glory :D ) they continued off into unknown space.

 

Anyway, the Seraphims changed drastically over the years. Their numbers swelled and they eventually completely abandoned the codex's ideas of only having a thousand marines. They changed to having Twelve companies: Six Planet based and Six Fleet based. Each Planet and Fleet based companies were assigned to each of the Six solar systems. The Six planet based companies would defend against the orks (whom, for every killed, would just have 10 more to replace them), take the local chosen for ascension and defend against any invaders. The Six fleet based companies would defend their solar systems from the Eldar and Dark Eldar crafts, provide reinforcements for the planet based companies if needed and assault any of the planets not claimed by the Seraphims. The Young Ones, don't have their own company, they are considered part of the of the other companies. They are used in conjunction with the full-fledged Seraphims and basically are the eager Auxiliaries, Snipers and guys with Homing and Locator Beacons. Due to the large number of Chosen, the Young Ones outnumber the Power armour clad Seraphims by about 5 to 1. Each Company has about a 100 Astartes for each planet in their solar system.

 

Anyway, everything is a lovely stalemate for the remainder of time until the dawn of the 41st millennium, where, out of the vague direction of unknown space where Third Company Captain 'what's his name' went off with his expedition force (hint-hint), come the Necrons!

 

Now these aren't your box standard Necrons, oh no, these are your Necrons that have built/dug out those ships from Battle Fleet Gothic, got a LOT of 'crons with them (who will hopefully be sporting several orange and red Gauss weaponry as well as the usual green if the Necron rumors are to be believed) and are determined to harvest all know life that can't get away as they're trapped against the warp storms (I'm not going to get into going up and down in space right now, point is they're stuck there). But don't worry, they don't actually come until near the end of the millennium, for the 995 years before they come to wipe out the Arcadia Cluster they just send more and more jackel fighters as scouts.

 

But come 999.M41, 4 years into the Necron onslaught of the Cluster, the unexpected happens, the unimaginable occurs (from the point of view of an Arcadian, who don't have novels, so to them this isn't a cliche move for humans of the 401st Millennium). Let's say oh, about half of the Seraphim companies turn to a new God, not themselves, but one who can give them so much more...

 

Slaanesh!

 

 

Who's the hemaphrodite go-with-just-about-anyone jerk

That's a sex machine to all the worshipers?

(Slaanesh!)

You're damn right

 

Who is the god

That would risk his forces to pool them with undivided?

(Slaanesh!)

Can ya dig it?

 

Who's the cat that won't cop out

When stuff starts getting freaky all about

(Slaanesh!)

Right on

 

You see this cat Slaanesh is a bad mother--

(Shut your mouth)

But I'm talkin' about Slaanesh

(Then he's/she's/it's been there and done that)

 

He's a complicated god

But no one understands he/she/it but his... er... um... Daemons...?

(John/Jane/Jay Slaanesh)

 

 

Yes, I'm having half my custom chapter fall to Slaanesh (who's been a very obscure background figure (to them, to us he wasn't worth mentioning) up until this point) to save them from the Necrons. How Astartes like... But seriously, I wanted a half Loyalist (well no, they're renegade actually, but if they were re-discovered and weren't wiped out by whatever Paranoid, unflinching, Exterminatus-ing, "Oh they have wings! They must be chaos then!"-ing... well let's say a missionary finds them or some one PC or a Space Marine chapter with access to the Library (WHO IS DEFINITELY NOT THE GREY KNIGHTS! AS WE ALL KNOW WHAT THEY DO TO CHAPTERS WITH VISIBLE MUTATIONS (Flame Falcons anyone?)) or a mix of the previous two finds them and enlightens them on the ways of yore, I'm sure they'd be willing to swear loyalty.) half Chaos chapter that stood out a fair bit on look (that's my own ego there) so I could have the versatility of two codex's for one army (three if I count vanilla marines codex) while using the same models (for the feel of having the same guys do all this).

 

For the Record I have some of these guys Modeled and painted Including one of the Captains and a Contemptor Dread it comes to about 1000pts so far.

 

So why Slaanesh? Why do the Seraphims do anything? I'll tell you: Gargantuan EGOS! VANITY! NARCISSISM! REALLY, REALLY, RIDICULOUSLY GOOD LOOKING! ANGEL WINGS! These guys are about themselves and Slaanesh is perfect for their tastes.

 

Anyway to summarize the big blocks of Text here's the gist of it:

  • Seraphims have GIANT EGOS!
  • Seraphims are trapped on the edge of the galaxy from the rest of the Imperium by warp storms, luckily they find human inhabited planets to make base on
  • Seraphims take over and then become worshiped as Gods, this pleases their egos to the point where they become MONSTROUS EGOS!, they've been there so long they forget about The Big E and embrace their egos, this leads to them developing Angel Wings that grow with skill (and therefore their ego) and reforming the entire chapter structure
  • Seraphims eventually take the neighboring 5 solar systems from the indigenous orks and Eldar, neither of which are going away, Dark Eldar are a piratin'
  • Glory hungry Captain goes off to UNKNOWN Space to discover and Conquer in the Name of the Seraphim, unfortunately they come across Deep Space 9 Active Necron Tomb World with nothing better to do then Exterminate them and wherever they came from
  • Necrons are kicking their ass and they know it, half turn to worship Slaanesh whose whispers they've been ignoring for along time, but now they serve to beat the 'crons. Unfortunately the Half that don't side with Slaanesh, happen to be the half with the GARGANTUAN EGOS! who just can't take bowing down to someone else (Chapter master aside) and decide to start a civil war in the middle of their own GENOCIDE, but the guys who did seek help and bow down, now have gifts from the Big S so of course their egos swelled to match the 'loyalist' ego. Thus, both sides are matched against each other in terms of EGO, are fighting for survival against the Necrons who draw strength from their lack of an EGO (despite having literal embodiments of EGO as Gods), are surrounded by enough orks to literally kill every one (again and again) as there is no end to them, so should one ork have the EGO (after all, a WHAAAAH! is only as good as the Warboss' ego) to start a WAAAAAH!-ing then there'll be trouble all around, Not mention the Eldar and Dark Eldar Pirates (who should just be call the EGOdar and Dark EGOdar, I mean come on, the Eldar are so high and mighty their ego is the probably the reason the Imperium is Xenophobic and the Dark Eldar's ego is such that they regularly take Slaves and beat and pillage for the lulz. Do you know what Commorragh translates too? Do you? I'll tell you: ALMIGHTY THRONE OF EGO. So because everyone's got their EGOs out, it looks pretty apocalyptic right now and hopefully is Grimdark enough while being acceptably plausible.

 

So there, It's pretty disorganized sure, and it's long. But that's what I'm thinking for the Seraphims and Seraphims Corrupt. If you had the Superhuman Stamina needed to read this, well please tell me what you think. Oh and The Ego thing was just me trying to add humor to my bad story, I got pretty erratic after writing so much

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Wow that is alot of work and effort you put into your diy, but it seems that a large majority of it goes against the 40k universe! I guess if you want to go off and create your own little universe that is fine, but alot of what you have written contradicts certain criteria that we all normally look for in a diy.

Well I didn't realize the (now that I think about it, obvious) point about Seraphim already being plural, so you got me there.

 

As for the Forgeworld part, I don't really see how that part isn't plausible. Since each of the planets had reached industrial age levels of technology, they already had knowledge of how to build a factory and such, it just wasn't much causing global warming for them. Then come the Space Marines, who decide to make one of the planets to have all the factories. Factories that are now building improvised technology based on what the Techmarines already understood. The Global warming thing was just there to explain why the other planets hadn't smogged up during the mean time as I wanted the other to seem like a paradise just to help justify their narcissism. With all the factories now on the one planet obviously that planet would turn as unhealthy as every other forgeworld (after all, their factories were cleaner, but not clean). I'm not saying they just STC'd it into having total output, I mean they had about a thousand years or so before they went further then the Arcadia system. With improvisation on the part of the Techmarines for what they need at the time, I don't really see why they couldn't cover a world under their control with factories. As for the wings part, that was caused by the continuous proximity to the warp storms (which I stated), they just grew when one started defending or attacking someone, so on a planet ruled by what seems like angels, a lot of people would take to defending their fellow man if needed. Now I didn't put anything about civil unrest or uprising so I can see where you got the pure heart of the planet from but, really I just assumed even guys who have it as easy as they do would still have crime.

 

Can you tell me where I go against the Warhammer 40k universe? I realize Angel wings and Improvisation is VERY unorthodox, but since 1 is caused by the warp and the other is just space marines adapting to their situation (since other Cannon marine chapters have developed their own customs and have been known to diverge from their teachings) I think that most of it is plausible. Being made and lost before the Ecclesiarchy was formed, they wouldn't consider themselves heretical and being cut off from the Imperium for so long, most would have died and been replaced from being continually attacked ect, so it would be less important to the replacements taken from the planets, who would have only have been told about the Emperor and the Imperium. They would likely (with the narcissism and all), eventually find it acceptable to be worshiped by the lesser humans. They're still space marines, just unorthodox ones with a mutation and a god complex. Sure if discovered they'd either be wiped out or beaten into submission and sent on penitence crusades and such, but they're still space marines, seeing guys just like them after several millennia would put a dent in the god complex.

Maybe going against the 40k universe is a harsh statement, but what I meant to say is that the majority of it goes against what I believe to be acceptable.In my mind techmarines are incapable of creating a forgeworld regardless of the number of years in isolation. If you look at what you have written every other sentence is followed by a statement trying to justify your divergence, each statement in parenthesis takes me away from my expectations of a diy. This is my opinion and you can ignore it completely, if you want you can ask me not to leave anymore feedback and I will stop. It is a decent idea but at the moment you are in that we are isolated and we can do whatever we want category, I am not sure is that what you are going for?

For a first quibble (of many, unfortunately), and please take this in a nice way - the techmarines with the Chapter wouldnt know HOW to create a forge-world. Nor would they necessarily know how ot maintain the machinecs required to function as such capacity, or capability to provide them with everything they'd need. Imagine it almost like computers now - you and I both know how to use them, and roughly how they work, and can replace a RAM chip or graphics card, but can you make the chips themselves from scratch, starting with the raw ore in the ground? Can you even find that ore? Techmarines have vast, but remarkably specialised knowledge about machinery - tehy wont know everytihng about everything they might need. This is part fo the reason why all the other chapters are to some degree dependant on the Adeptus Mechanicus for their continued supplies. Even the Ultramarines arent totally self-sufficient (for example)...

 

Good luck with your chapter though...

I understand what you guys mean: it's too far-fetched.

All that's important to me with these guys is that they have wings, the narcissism and half of them falling to Slaanesh resulting in a civil war. I really want these guys based on how I want them to look, not on how brilliant their record or abilities or fluff is. So I'll take your criticisms and opinions with open arms.

I first came up with them being a BA successor rather than a codex compliant, because I already had Imperial Fists, Celestial Lions, Mortificators, Death Spectres and Storm Wardens forces (of varying sizes) and only had 1 BA force, which was the BA's themselves. The SW, BT and DA were cool and all, but the problem I had with them was that the Space Wolves and Black Templars have to be SW and BT, they don't have successors that follow the same rules, and Dark Angels have to be Unforgiven. So I went with Blood Angels, but I didn't want them being Imperium-wide loved vampires (or mistrusted vampires) who were doing their best not to be vampires, because while that is great fluff for the BA, it's not really what I wanted for my DIY. So I axed the Red Thirst. Then, since they've mutated out of the RT, why not actually give them wings. And then since they're going to be angelic figures (I mean even more so that the usual Angel of Death) The Silvers and Golds pretty much came instantly and after playing around, found I liked marines in the scheme. After seeing the pic of Sanguinius in his armour with his wings completely on show, I decided to have the wingspan grow with the individual's power. The Narcissism seemed like a no-brainer since they had wings and were wearing silver and gold armour. And this allowed me to have a reason to turn them to chaos (Slaanesh seemed the most likely), which became important to me as I really wanted an army that I could play with multiple codices and with a narrative that I could control.

 

Maybe going against the 40k universe is a harsh statement, but what I meant to say is that the majority of it goes against what I believe to be acceptable.In my mind techmarines are incapable of creating a forgeworld regardless of the number of years in isolation. If you look at what you have written every other sentence is followed by a statement trying to justify your divergence, each statement in parenthesis takes me away from my expectations of a diy. This is my opinion and you can ignore it completely, if you want you can ask me not to leave anymore feedback and I will stop. It is a decent idea but at the moment you are in that we are isolated and we can do whatever we want category, I am not sure is that what you are going for?

Beyond the paint scheme, personal traits and at least some of them going to chaos, I'm really okay with criticisms and stuff. And you're right CKO, I wasn't going for a "might as well be in a different setting" chapter originally, they just became that due to trying to justify a couple of plot-holes that I saw with them. The Warp storms were just a reason to explain the wings (the 21st founding might have been acceptable, but the Grey Knights wiped out the Flame Falcons from the 21st founding because of visible mutations). The being cut off from the rest of the Imperium was to explain why these guys hadn't been "purged". The swelling in numbers was there to explain how they could control that much territory without local militia, which was there to explain how they were able to replenish themselves so easily. Everything other than what's going to be present on the models and the being treated as god-like figures by the inhabitants of their homeworld, was really just itself writing itself. In all honesty, I wrote that in 2 hours with most of it off the top of my head. So feel free to say "I just can't accept this".

 

For a first quibble (of many, unfortunately), and please take this in a nice way - the techmarines with the Chapter wouldnt know HOW to create a forge-world. Nor would they necessarily know how ot maintain the machinecs required to function as such capacity, or capability to provide them with everything they'd need. Imagine it almost like computers now - you and I both know how to use them, and roughly how they work, and can replace a RAM chip or graphics card, but can you make the chips themselves from scratch, starting with the raw ore in the ground? Can you even find that ore? Techmarines have vast, but remarkably specialised knowledge about machinery - tehy wont know everytihng about everything they might need. This is part fo the reason why all the other chapters are to some degree dependant on the Adeptus Mechanicus for their continued supplies. Even the Ultramarines arent totally self-sufficient (for example)...

 

Good luck with your chapter though...

I understood it as the Techmarines being trained in how to maintain all their equipment and being able to build artificer armour and better weapons. Now the computer analogy is a very valid point, but as I stated, the planets already had factories. So there's ore already being found and used. With some Improvisation on the part of the Techs, equivalent or acceptable materials, bolters, ammunition and replacement parts would be able to be produced. As to how to actually manufacture them, well with examples at hand, I believe that an acceptable attempt or replica wouldn't be out of the question if they truly wanted to. That's why I put that part in there. While I don't believe that a Techmarine knows how to build the stuff they maintain (and I am fully aware on how dependent the entire Imperium is on the Adeptus Mechanica, after all it is stated every time they, a pattern or a forgeworld is mentioned), if they had no choice, in my opinion I believe that they'd be able to make it or an equivalent eventually if given the factory and materials, which I did. Fill the world with factories and workers and you've got as close to a Forgeworld as they need. Just my opinion though.

 

That said, It's looking pretty clear that they shouldn't be off in their own space at the moment

 

Edited because I worked out how to put in the quotes from CKO and Leonidas... damn I'm such a newbie :HQ:

Well, the biggest problem with the whole forgeworld thing isn't that it can't be created by them, its that forgeworlds are the under the COMPLETE control of the Ad Mech. Forge Worlds are also the result of thousands upon thousands of years of labor.

 

Now, do not get the idea that Tech Marines can't make stuff. They can. They can make power armor, weapons, power weapons, bolters, etc. They can even make the vehicles of the chapter. But, as previously mentioned, they need the material to do that, as well as many hours (possibly years) of labor, which they rarely have.

Every tech building a tank for a year is one less tech on the field repairing their working tanks.

 

Also, I would like to see less, "This is what I want to do with my chapter." and more, "This is what my chapter is!" And almost no, "I's" in there. Make it written like someone else looking in, or somone in writing it for someone else. More facts from the Imperium's point of view. Get what I am saying? I mean, you don't have to, but it would make it much easier to read, I believe. Also, I think the quote is unnecessary the way it is. I think you should reword it to fit your chapter.

 

Its a chapter about ego, so I would make it more along the lines of, "Why should we have to just kill in the name of the "god" emperor, when we ourselves could be gods!?" Something emphasising their self absorbed thoughts. They aren't demi-gods, they are GODS. They aren't the Angels of Death, they are the Gods of Death. Stuff like that.

 

Also, don't let the fluff revolve around table rules.

 

-Edit-

Also, I am not a big fan of the angelic wings. And I might have missed tihs in there, but what are their views and practices involving the Black Rage and Red Thirst?

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