Starting out, building a list

[Brother Aros]

Hey everyone,

 

I am brand-new to both 40K and wargaming generally. I'm also Canadian(I don't think that matters too much, but just so you know, eh?). I decided not to post a get-to-know-me column in the introductory section, but rather just jump straight into the questions I have.

 

I've read through the basic rules(Assault on Black Reach set) and Codex: Space Marines a couple of times now. Then I got online and did some searching. I found a couple of good sites that jumped out at me. Lexicanum seems pretty good for backstory and all that, and this seems like the place to be to find info for Space Marines(I've been lurking for a few weeks). Anyway, I finally picked a chapter, based on some Lexicanum reading. The colors appeal to me, and their doctrine seems like the kind of way I'd play the game. There also seems to be relatively little information available on the Storm Wardens online(or perhaps my ability to find it just sucks), so I'm free to make some things up as I go along.

 

Three important things I've learned from the Bolter and Chainsword:

1) Melta is wonderful. Take it. Lots of it. Learn to love it.

2) Like it or love it, Rhinos are a necessary part of life. Take them, or fail.

3) Redundancy is an important trait in a successful army.

 

So I've actually worked out a list. I won't post it here, or anywhere just yet, until I get some information. The guy at my local GW said that most of the local games(and tournaments) are played between 1500 and 1750 points, so I figured if I collected roughly 2000 points worth, I could have some options.

 

Anyway, I've looked at army lists and tactical questions stretching back for a month or so, and it seems to me that there's a lot of 'cookie-cutter' type lists out there. I think that's boring. Not necessarily wrong, just boring. I'd like to test some different(lesser-used) units from the Codex(or perhaps they just seem lesser-used because I'm new). So I've got a couple units listed below, and I'm just wondering if 1) there's a reason they aren't used, or 2) if they are used a lot and I'm just not aware. In no particular order:

 

Techmarines. These guys are cool model-wise. Looks like there's some interesting options here from a modelling/painting perspective, and some of their abilities seem handy. Bolstering ruins, a Strength 8 bonus attack, and repairing vehicles all seem handy to me.

Servitors. The models are interesting. I like them. Seems like a cheap source of 2 heavy weapons(Devastators on the cheap?). Their stat-line isn't anything to brag about, but it seems to me if left with a Techmarine(in a bolstered ruin) and perhaps paired with a sniper scout squad, they could do some cool things. I've got this idea of 5 Sniper Scouts, including a counts-as Telion, coupled with a Techmarine and 4 Servitors(2 heavy weapons, 2 for wound allocation), to create a 36" area-denial unit. Perhaps camping on a home objective?

Chronus, or a counts-as version thereof. He'd make a tank more accurate and harder to kill, both good things in my book. If the tank gets wrecked, there's a good chance you earn an independent character model. Not necessarily a major selling feature, but a cool bonus anyway. I'm guessing upgrade cost here is to blame.

Vanguard Veterans. Expensive, but they sound like a tough bunch. If my math is right, a 10-man squad with no upgrades gets about 40 attacks on the charge. Sounds like a good way to deal some hurt. I don't know why they wouldn't let you take a Land Raider as a transport for them, as that seems most fitting.

Land Speeder Tempest. I found a picture of the model, and some cool info on Lexicanum, but I can't find rules for this thing anywhere. I've also ascertained(I'm sure you already know) you cannot build one from a standard Land Speeder kit without some serious DIY. I can't even find the model on the GW website. What gives?

Land Speeder Storm - I don't know why this isn't a transport for Scouts, being as they can't use any others, but it looks like it might be a good transport for a suicide squad.

 

I'm considering a list that includes 4 scoring units at 2000 points. 3 Tactical Squads, 10 men each, and 5 Sniper Scouts with a counts-as Telion. I'm sure I'm not the first guy to ask, and will continue to search, but are there some hard-and-fast "rules" for taking troops, or scoring units, by points value? I thought 35 guys sounded pretty good at 2000 points, especially for an army known to be short on bodies. Equipping Tactical Squads is an issue for me too. All I seem to be thinking is "take melta", but I could see overloading on one thing and then excluding something else entirely. I'm also looking to avoid a few things, so if anyone cares to suggest some alternatives, I'd appreciate it.

 

Assault Terminators - the TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider seem overdone. I would say that 2 out of 3 lists I read(approximated) has them. I'd like to avoid them, solely for that reason. They seem points-efficient(when compared to other units that fill a similar role), and I'm sure they're a bastard to kill, but I want to stay away from them. Alternatively considering throwing 7-8 Vanguard in a Land Raider Crusader, perhaps with a big nasty assault-oriented Chapter Master(Orbital Bombardment sounds like a blast).

Named HQ Characters - including, but not limited to, Vulkan, Kantor, and Lysander. There seem to be enough of them out there already. I know that may sound weird, as I'm looking at Telion and Chronus, but for some reason, that just seems to be a different take on it to me.

 

The last thing I'm wondering about is plasma weapons. Is Gets Hot! really a big issue? It sounds big and ugly and nasty, but a guy with a plasma cannon might get, what, 3 shots a game, if he makes it to the very end? Is this a major concern, or am I just making it out to be that way in my head?

 

Sorry, I just read the whole thing. It sounded a lot less disjointed in my mind, and I realize I'm all over the place, but these are the things that I've been wondering about, since picking up my books about 2 weeks ago. Please share some wisdom.

[Gearhead]

So, Lets do this step by step.

 

I seldom see techamarines either in online lists or at my local store. Masters of the Forge are a different story, since I actually see them taken sometimes, but rarely techmarines of any variant in any codex. I think it's their delivery options that limit them, and that (if my memory serves) they can't repair a vehicle while inside it. Otherwise, they'd be pretty good for a Land Raider spearhead unit. Additionally, Lysander gives out fortification too, and he's a badass.

 

I've seen servitors used once in a meched up Grey Knights army, worked well, but only due to Coteaz's "I've been expecting you" rule. Otherwise, they're static and don't score (again, unless they're with coteaz), so I usually leave them at home.

 

I've never used nor seen chronus used in my life, so no comment there.

 

Vanguard veterans are a unit that is really good but very easy to overspend on. Take your ten man squad for instance, wouldn't it be awesome if all those swings were powerweapons? But, that's another 150 points, on a 250 point unit, taking it to 400 points. See what I mean? You've got to be really, really careful with these guys; they're good at their job, but only give them what they need.

 

Tempests are a forgeworld thing, they're not in the main book. Never seen one used, seen several painted. They're very pretty.

 

On Land Speeder Storms and other scout related things, talk to GreatCrusade08. He's the scoutmaster, if you will, an expert in scouts and scout accessories. The one time I saw an outflanking Storm squad used I tried to grab my hammerhead, missed, and then died without a causing a hiccup in my firepower. This is apparently not the right way to use them.

 

I use more troops than most, but a good guide is a scoring unit per 500 points. I use more earlier, but at 2000 this is the case for me.

 

Assault terminators are used for a reason, they're :D hot. I mix it up and have two claws in my unit, but that's to take advantage of pedro's bubble. There have been many, many, many threads about this topic. Also, take it from me using Kantor, Orbital bombardment is not as awesome as it sounds, particularly on an assault unit.

 

Those three characters are the big three (and I use Kantor quite a bit), but I only hear complaints about Vulkan. Shrike and Khan lists are less common.

 

Some people love plasma (drop poddin', hot roddin', quad shottin' command squads), some hate it in favor of melta. I have a plasma squad that squats on objectives, and they do fine. Gets Hot! isn't too bad an issue, on average you miss a shot a game, and if you do overheat you still get your armor save. It's more a worry on plasmaguns than on cannons.

 

Hope that helps, it's a little late where I am.

[Hellios]

PLASMA!!!!!!!!!!

 

I have a 400pt combat patrol army... It has 5 plasma cannons, 1 plasma gun and a plasma pistol... Do I kill some of my own guys now and again? Yeah... Do I normally kill a lot more of the enemy before I die? Yeah... Oh I also run plasma vets in my imperial guard list.

 

As for Techmarines... yer pretty cool... Consider the Thundefire cannon if you have a spare heavy support slot... Its usefulness (due to being fairly easy to destroy) is debated... Personally I don't think it is that great... However it is cool and it CAN do damage! My main point however is that it comes with a techmarine! Also Storm Wardens... Storm... Thunder... Storm...

 

There is no hard and fast rule regarding the number of scoring units you should take... I know a guy who takes none... His aim is to table everyone, every game! Often people suggest 1 per 500pts but in reality it depends what you do with them. I know Dark Eldar players who will take 6 troop choices... While other people will only take the required two. Assuming you won't table everyone (destroy every single unit) then to win a game based on scoring you only need one scoring unit as long as you contest all of the enemies objectives. So the question is... How will you use your squads? will they be hiding somewhere safe like Eldar jetbike units or stuck in the middle of things?

 

Land Speeder storms are pretty cool... an example of a decent layout 5 scouts with ccw/bp or shotguns with combi-melta and powerfist/meltabombs on the sgt and a multi-melta on the storm... again Storm Wardens... land speeder storm... Scout up and do some first turn tank busting.

 

The tempest is from www.forgeworld.co.uk Its rules are not that great... However if you like the model consider that with a little work it could stand in for a Typhoon... hey another storm :D

 

I think most of the storm wardens background is from the Deathwatch RPG game B)

[Brother Anvilus]

Weren't the storm wardens that chapter that was created by Fantasy Flight Games for their Deathwath RPG?Some guy won a SERIOUS list painted by a group of bloggers in some charity-event-lottery-thingy, was pretty darn sweet to see :)

 

OT:

 

I run 2 tactical squads with Plasmaguns and Plasmacannons and I must say, when they BANG, they do damage, wether it's on enemy models or themselves :-P otherwise, I like your train of thought.Stay away from some overused IC's and Units and use some other units.

[Schultzhoffen]

Ok. Where to begin? Techmarines, cool in fluff, can be useful in the game but the points are better spent elsewhere (unless you're doing an Iron Hands army, then go Master of the Forge, plenty of dreads, etc).

 

If you go barebones Techmarine with 2 Servitors (with Plasma Cannons), you spend 130 points. For an immobile, fragile unit. The points are better used on a Plasma Cannon Dread or (my favourite) an Autocannon/Lascannon Predator (10 points cheaper).

 

Vanguard are kind of...meh. 40 Attacks with CC? Let's see, 20 hits on average and 10 wounds on average (v MEQs). Possibly 3 kills? Hardly mind blowing.5 Assault Terminators with LCs will dish out 8 -10 wounds with a rerollable Power Weapon for 6-10 kills (NO saves). MUCH better.

 

I prefer Sternguard with several Combi Meltas and Combi Plas. I believe Marines to be a balanced, shooty army, not really a CC one (unless you build a deathstar unit with Assault Terminators in a LRCrusader led by a Chaplain).

 

Chronus is (unfortunately) a waste of points. You'd be better off getting a Predator tank, Land Speeder, MM Attack Bike, etc and have some points left here and there.

 

Melta is NOT the be all and end all. I like Plasma for Infantry and Lascannons for antitank. Melta is a short ranged option. Any tanks will outgun you and a LRaider that's close enough to be popped will be close enough to unload it's cargo. However, some melta is a good idea, but, once again, balance is key.

 

Rhinos are a good idea. 2-3 Tac Squads in rhinos, some scouts, 2 tanks, a dreadnought, Sternguard or Assault Terminators (even Tac Terminators with CML), a LSpeeder and you've a good start.

 

The best army is a combined arms, points' efficient one that focusses on shooting yet has a solid CC unit (usually for counter attack /drop pod alpha strike or built around a LRC with assault Termintors).

 

Telion is solid.

 

I prefer a naked Librarian as my HQ but if I had to choose, I'd say Khan or Kantor (cheapish and both give good buffs). Be aware, though, taking a Special Character means you'll have to build an army around him to best use his buffs, eg plenty of meltas, etc for Vulcan.

 

Hope all this helps.

 

Never underestimate the bog standard Tactical Marine. Ever.

[bystrom]

Three important things I've learned from the Bolter and Chainsword:

1) Melta is wonderful. Take it. Lots of it. Learn to love it.

2) Like it or love it, Rhinos are a necessary part of life. Take them, or fail.

3) Redundancy is an important trait in a successful army.

Melta's quite good at reliably destroying vehicles, so yes, you usually need a couple to quite a few. That said, the other weapons have their uses as well. I agree with 2 and 3 (though for 3, redundancy=/=spamming).

Techmarines. These guys are cool model-wise. Looks like there's some interesting options here from a modelling/painting perspective, and some of their abilities seem handy. Bolstering ruins, a Strength 8 bonus attack, and repairing vehicles all seem handy to me.

Servitors. The models are interesting. I like them. Seems like a cheap source of 2 heavy weapons(Devastators on the cheap?). Their stat-line isn't anything to brag about, but it seems to me if left with a Techmarine(in a bolstered ruin) and perhaps paired with a sniper scout squad, they could do some cool things. I've got this idea of 5 Sniper Scouts, including a counts-as Telion, coupled with a Techmarine and 4 Servitors(2 heavy weapons, 2 for wound allocation), to create a 36" area-denial unit. Perhaps camping on a home objective?

Chronus, or a counts-as version thereof. He'd make a tank more accurate and harder to kill, both good things in my book. If the tank gets wrecked, there's a good chance you earn an independent character model. Not necessarily a major selling feature, but a cool bonus anyway. I'm guessing upgrade cost here is to blame.

Vanguard Veterans. Expensive, but they sound like a tough bunch. If my math is right, a 10-man squad with no upgrades gets about 40 attacks on the charge. Sounds like a good way to deal some hurt. I don't know why they wouldn't let you take a Land Raider as a transport for them, as that seems most fitting.

Land Speeder Tempest. I found a picture of the model, and some cool info on Lexicanum, but I can't find rules for this thing anywhere. I've also ascertained(I'm sure you already know) you cannot build one from a standard Land Speeder kit without some serious DIY. I can't even find the model on the GW website. What gives?

Land Speeder Storm - I don't know why this isn't a transport for Scouts, being as they can't use any others, but it looks like it might be a good transport for a suicide squad.

Techmarine: Usually, its worth considering a (or two) thunderfire cannon(s) (if it wasn't a big metal lump: why GW!), as you get a techmarine then as well. I find techmarines in Elite slots hard to use (I've only just started testing a bare-bones one in my army). I don't think they're very common, especially as Elite slots are valuable.

Servitors: No idea.

Chronus: Same here, no idea.

Vanguard Veterans: I think VV with jump packs are too expensive, its the on-foot variant that you're mentioning that could be alright. Can't say much, though I'm sure someone will pass by and comment on their effectiveness as an almost bare-bones squad in a rhino.

Land Speeder Tempest: Its Forgeworld so requires your opponent's permission. You can't use these in every tournament either.

Land Speeder Storm: Usual idea is to have a five-man scout squad (NOT a 10-man combat squadded scout squad) that can either first-turn charge stationary vehicles or outflank or try to survive and steal objectives at the last minute.

I'm considering a list that includes 4 scoring units at 2000 points. 3 Tactical Squads, 10 men each, and 5 Sniper Scouts with a counts-as Telion. I'm sure I'm not the first guy to ask, and will continue to search, but are there some hard-and-fast "rules" for taking troops, or scoring units, by points value? I thought 35 guys sounded pretty good at 2000 points, especially for an army known to be short on bodies. Equipping Tactical Squads is an issue for me too. All I seem to be thinking is "take melta", but I could see overloading on one thing and then excluding something else entirely. I'm also looking to avoid a few things, so if anyone cares to suggest some alternatives, I'd appreciate it.

At 1500 points I usually use 2 10-man tactical squads. It depends as said on how you're going to use them. Most xenos have rather fragile Troops, so need a few of them, while space marines using non-scouts can have fewer. I think 2-3 tactical squads and a scout squad is alright for 2000 points. I usually don't go all-melta for tactical squads. It depends a bit on the rest of the army what I give these guys. Usually I have a plasma cannon in there. Otherwise, either flamer/missile launcher or multi-melta, combi-melta/melta gun/heavy weapon, combi-plasma/plasma gun/heavy weapon. Try looking through the tactica section, tactical squad load-out threads pop up there on a regular basis.

Assault Terminators - the TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider seem overdone. I would say that 2 out of 3 lists I read(approximated) has them. I'd like to avoid them, solely for that reason. They seem points-efficient(when compared to other units that fill a similar role), and I'm sure they're a bastard to kill, but I want to stay away from them. Alternatively considering throwing 7-8 Vanguard in a Land Raider Crusader, perhaps with a big nasty assault-oriented Chapter Master(Orbital Bombardment sounds like a blast).

Named HQ Characters - including, but not limited to, Vulkan, Kantor, and Lysander. There seem to be enough of them out there already. I know that may sound weird, as I'm looking at Telion and Chronus, but for some reason, that just seems to be a different take on it to me.

If you're going for a Chapter Master, consider the honour guard. Idaho has used a medium-sized honour guard squad with chapter master to great effect. It works quite different from the TH/SS, but so does a vanguard squad. Otherwise, they both fulfil similar roles with the difference being one has power weapons the other doesn't (but is cheaper).

The last thing I'm wondering about is plasma weapons. Is Gets Hot! really a big issue? It sounds big and ugly and nasty, but a guy with a plasma cannon might get, what, 3 shots a game, if he makes it to the very end? Is this a major concern, or am I just making it out to be that way in my head?

Its not that big of an issue. The questions you should ask yourself are:

Feeling (un)lucky? (:))

Is there another weapon that does the exact same thing you want done (say plasma pistol vs. inferno(us?) pistol for BA) without the risk?

 

If you haven't seen it, look through the B&C Librarium, has a lot of information as well.

[DarkGuard]

Three important things I've learned from the Bolter and Chainsword:

1) Melta is wonderful. Take it. Lots of it. Learn to love it.

2) Like it or love it, Rhinos are a necessary part of life. Take them, or fail.

3) Redundancy is an important trait in a successful army.

 

1)Melta is good, it is not wonderful. It reliably takes down tanks and elite, small model count units (like Terminators), but against horde it struggles. It's all well and good packing up on melta against a mech list, but come across an Ork horde list and you'll struggle, even with boltguns. I take about three units with melta at the moment, and it seems to work out fine for me. The other units can then take flamers or plasmas depending on what they need to do.

 

2)Rhinos are not necessary, transports are necessary, and Rhinos are one of the better transports to take. But you can also make a successful Razorback army as well. At this present time I have 3 Rhinos and 1 Razorback for transports, backed up by a couple of Speeders and a Vindy, with some attack bikes knocking around somewhere in the list. Works fine, and I don't want to take more Rhinos.

 

3)Correct, but note that redundancy does not have to be copy and paste. I try to be a bit creative and not have unit Ax2, unit Bx2 etc. Rather I prefer to have unit A which can do tasks 1 and 2, and unit B with can do tasks 2 and 3 and so on, makes it more interesting.

 

 

Techmarines. These guys are cool model-wise. Looks like there's some interesting options here from a modelling/painting perspective, and some of their abilities seem handy. Bolstering ruins, a Strength 8 bonus attack, and repairing vehicles all seem handy to me.

Servitors. The models are interesting. I like them. Seems like a cheap source of 2 heavy weapons(Devastators on the cheap?). Their stat-line isn't anything to brag about, but it seems to me if left with a Techmarine(in a bolstered ruin) and perhaps paired with a sniper scout squad, they could do some cool things. I've got this idea of 5 Sniper Scouts, including a counts-as Telion, coupled with a Techmarine and 4 Servitors(2 heavy weapons, 2 for wound allocation), to create a 36" area-denial unit. Perhaps camping on a home objective?

 

Techmarines are very rarely used as they have to compete for a small amount of Elite slots with two types of Terminators, three types of Dreadnoughts, Sternguard, and Legion of the Damned. Therefore they don't really get used. However, people do take MotFs, thanks to the conversion beamer mostly, or Thunderfire Cannons, which gives you a three Techmarine with servo-harness (but no weapon options). Servitors still have expensive heavy weapons, an average BS (as opposed to a Marine's good BS), and half a chance of doing anything if left alone. If Techmarines were still 2W I might have taken them to help with bolster ruins, combat support, repairing vehicles etc, but as their 1W I find them a little too fragile.

 

Chronus, or a counts-as version thereof. He'd make a tank more accurate and harder to kill, both good things in my book. If the tank gets wrecked, there's a good chance you earn an independent character model. Not necessarily a major selling feature, but a cool bonus anyway. I'm guessing upgrade cost here is to blame.

 

Chronus is expensive, but used properly works well. He has a use in most battle tanks due to making them immune to crew shaken and stunned, meaning that they are extremely hard to shut up short of blowing their weapons off or blowing them up. Also, in Predators and Land Raiders he's useful as he makes them hit on 2s, most useful in dakka Preds and combi Preds which have no TL-weapons. However, not sure, but he may gave an extra KP if he gets out the vehicle alive, and can't do much when out there. A fun choice, as most people would agree that two dakka Preds are better than one slightly more accurate one.

 

Vanguard Veterans. Expensive, but they sound like a tough bunch. If my math is right, a 10-man squad with no upgrades gets about 40 attacks on the charge. Sounds like a good way to deal some hurt. I don't know why they wouldn't let you take a Land Raider as a transport for them, as that seems most fitting.

 

Those attacks won't do much against Marines, against horde they'll be fine. However, it is best to upgrade them, and stick them in a HS Land Raider of your choice. I know that thade uses them somewhat like this: 1 thunder hammer, 3 single lightning claws, 2 storm shields, 2 normal guys. Latter two take hits, the former four dish out damage. Can also swap one lightning claw for a relic blade (moving thunder hammer from Sergeant to normal guy) if you wish.

 

However, for my points I prefer Honour Guard for melee infantry killing duty. Sure they don't have an invulnerable save, but against low/no power weapon count units they rip through them with little damage incurred. An Idaho pattern squad consists of a RB/SS Chapter Master, 1 Chapter Champion with relic blade, 1 Honour Guard with Banner and power sword, and 3 Honour Guard with power swords. Provides a mighty 10 relic blade and 20 power weapon attacks on the charge, the Master can soak up a couple of power weapon hits, while the Honour Guard take on normal hits. Put inside a Rhino they come out to less than Assault Terms in a Raider and still do a very good job. Currently the craze at my LGS.

 

Land Speeder Tempest. I found a picture of the model, and some cool info on Lexicanum, but I can't find rules for this thing anywhere. I've also ascertained(I'm sure you already know) you cannot build one from a standard Land Speeder kit without some serious DIY. I can't even find the model on the GW website. What gives?

Land Speeder Storm - I don't know why this isn't a transport for Scouts, being as they can't use any others, but it looks like it might be a good transport for a suicide squad.

 

They're really cool, but the Tempest is forge world, so not GW. Some opponents may let you use it, but you'll need the appropriate Imperial Armour, plus the model from FW.

 

And no one knows why the LSS isn't a transport for Scouts, I can only imagine the GW rules department went to sleep after a late night of rules writing and forgot about it the next day, but we all have our fingers crossed for 6th Ed. As for use, it works well as a suicide squad, although I don't think you should be using your Scouts like that, as they are the future of the Chapter. But a unit with combat weapons, combi-melta, meltabombs (power fist) in a MM Storm is a good alpha strike unit against horrible, big tanks, while a unit with combat weapons/shotguns, combi-flamer, power fist/power weapon (MBs) in a heavy flamer Storm is a good last gasp objective snatcher squad, or a nice squad to use for preying on small and weak units. Be warned that due to fragility they require a bit more care and thought used.

 

I'm considering a list that includes 4 scoring units at 2000 points. 3 Tactical Squads, 10 men each, and 5 Sniper Scouts with a counts-as Telion. I'm sure I'm not the first guy to ask, and will continue to search, but are there some hard-and-fast "rules" for taking troops, or scoring units, by points value? I thought 35 guys sounded pretty good at 2000 points, especially for an army known to be short on bodies. Equipping Tactical Squads is an issue for me too. All I seem to be thinking is "take melta", but I could see overloading on one thing and then excluding something else entirely. I'm also looking to avoid a few things, so if anyone cares to suggest some alternatives, I'd appreciate it.

 

The common rule of thumb is 1 Troop unit for every 500pts, often up to 1500pts/2000pts depending on the person where they then decide they have enough Troops. Some people though use 4-6 Troops in 1500pts, and some use the required 2. I am one such person of the latter variety. Having used 2-3 Troops in 1500-1750pts regularly I find that two works fine. Remember that with combat squads you can make more scoring units, just set out the squad load out well and they work ok, if a bit fragile. But then if you chuck enough offensive threats your opponent's way, such as Honour Guard, Sternguard, Typhoons, Vindicators (being my examples), your Troops get picked on less. But trust me, I didn't drop that third Troop choice for power, I dropped it because I like both Honour Guard and Sternguard. I do rotate in a Scout squad for a Librarian every now and then, but they're on foot and often don't perform so well, so I don't use them all the time. In the end, it's really what works for you best.

 

Assault Terminators - the TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider seem overdone. I would say that 2 out of 3 lists I read(approximated) has them. I'd like to avoid them, solely for that reason. They seem points-efficient(when compared to other units that fill a similar role), and I'm sure they're a bastard to kill, but I want to stay away from them. Alternatively considering throwing 7-8 Vanguard in a Land Raider Crusader, perhaps with a big nasty assault-oriented Chapter Master(Orbital Bombardment sounds like a blast).

 

Hammernators are overdone, to death, and then more some. While I don't deny that they are effective, they also lack creativity in both army building and application. I know that I hate facing them, and that I normally dislike using them as well. However, it can be fun to think of more, inventive ways to take them down. My favourite at the moment is chucking Honour Guard at them with a Chapter Master and sometimes Libby, oh and the Libby used Null Zone. That's proven fun in recent games and I don't think I've lost an Honour Guard yet in doing that, just a Libby once. Vanguard will also work, look at thade's unit for inspiration. However, I wouldn't take a Chapter Master for OB, it's rather useless and pure pot luck. Take a Captain if you're not taking Honour Guard, it saves points.

 

Named HQ Characters - including, but not limited to, Vulkan, Kantor, and Lysander. There seem to be enough of them out there already. I know that may sound weird, as I'm looking at Telion and Chronus, but for some reason, that just seems to be a different take on it to me.

 

As had been said Vulkan, Kantor and Lysander are the big three. Vulkan for twin-linking a lot of useful weapons, Kantor for his +1A bubble and scoring Sternguard, and Lysander because he can walk through walls, tanks, and enemy armies on his own. Telion is also used quite a bit thanks to his special rules, while Khan and Shrike often sit on the sidelines, but can be useful as well. I tend to prefer generic HQs anyway, so rarely take SCs anymore.

 

The last thing I'm wondering about is plasma weapons. Is Gets Hot! really a big issue? It sounds big and ugly and nasty, but a guy with a plasma cannon might get, what, 3 shots a game, if he makes it to the very end? Is this a major concern, or am I just making it out to be that way in my head?

 

Gets Hot! is rarely a big issue, as it's a 1/6 chance that it'll occur, then a 1/3 chance that'll the user will die. Of course sometimes it hits you more than other times, but it's usually fine. I use a plasma gun, combi-plasma and plasma cannon in my army and they do fine. In the past I used a quad-plasma Command squad and that did brilliantly when I used it, with FnP helping with the Gets Hot! wounds, halving the chance of losing someone. As a weapon plasma is very good and worth the risk, it's not the best against infantry, or the best against tanks, but can take both on better than flamers or meltas, well worth a look.

 

Hope this all helps.

[Brother Aros]

Firstly, I appreciate all the replies. That seems like a lot of response for a topic less than 24 hours old.

 

So I saw a couple of references to the Deathwatch RPG. I'm unfamiliar with it, but Lexicanum's article on the Storm Wardens(which was where I found and selected the chapter) does reference a "Deathwatch Core Rulebook" as the only source for the article, so I assume everyone that mentioned it is correct. I selected the chapter because it was a cool name, I found the colour scheme to be appealing, and the tactical doctrine(mechanized assault) sounded appealing. However, I'm considering playing a list like that under the Black Templars codex, since my understanding is that Land Raiders can be taken as dedicated transports, giving me more heavy support slots for tanks. I really like tanks, by the way. Actually, most things from the armoury appeal to me(Techmarines, armoured vehicles of all sorts, servitors, etc.). Anyway, I made a post in the Black Templars section regarding the best set of rules to use for a force of the above nature. Feel free to offer your thoughts here as well.

 

Sucks about the Tempest. I assume it's only available online, and I notice that all the prices are UK, which means x1.5 or so for us Canadians, plus shipping. Some kickass stuff. Just so I understand, to play games with Forge World stuff, you need the model, permission from your opponent, and a Forge World rulebook(apparently $150ish for a pair)? Does anyone actually use this stuff? Some cool models, for sure. The Thunderhawks and Caestus Assault Ram are pretty cool as well, but that works out to be about $600 for a spaceship, plus the rules needed to play it, and if your opponent doesn't like the look of it, you might get shafted anyway. That's rough.

 

For Schultzhoffen specifically, it's a good point you raise regarding the cost comparison of Techmarine + Servitors vs. other options. When I looked at the Codex, I just saw cheap models and cheap heavy weapons. However, I might try them anyway, just because I think they're cool. And Dreadnoughts need some more research before I'm prepared to take them. There seems to be a ton of different ways to tool them up and use them.

 

For those of you who mentioned the fuzzy line between redundancy and spamming, I agree entirely. Rather than have Unit A 3 times, I'd like to have Unit A, B, and C, where A and C have weapons for comparable purposes, as do A and B, and B and C, rather than the same thing across the board. Currently considering:

 

Unit A(10 Tacticals) - Plasma cannon, melta-gun, power fist/combi-flamer, Rhino

Unit B(10 Tacticals) - Multi-melta, flamer, power weapon, Rhino

Unit C(10 Tacticals) - Multi-melta, plasma gun, power fist, Rhino

 

Or something like that, anyway. Different units, but some redundancy anyway.

 

I see the point about being able to over-spend on Vanguard. I've seen that with a few different units. The notable ones, besides Vanguard, in my mind are Sternguard, Captains/Chapter Masters, Dreadnoughts, and Razorbacks. The last two intrigues me quite a bit. I've now read DarkGuard's Sternguard article(very well-written, by the way), and I see some ideas as an escort unit for my HQ. However, rather than the 7-8 recommended in the article, I'm considering 5(to keep costs down), and the idea of throwing them in a Razorback with an HQ(probably a Captain, if Orbital Bombardment sounds cooler than it is). I already know I want my HQ in artificer armour and with a relic blade, but I'm torn between a storm shield(for the invulnerable save to boost unit durability) or hellfire rounds(to add to a unit already dominant in the shooting phase), or if there's another option, or if I should just stop where I'm at. I already figure a heavy flamer and probably 2 combi-weapons(considering plasma), and a power fist on the Sergeant. I'd like to set up a Razorback to carry this unit into battle. As my army list is composed of several different units, with some weight on longer-range fire, I'm considering rushing the Sternguard/Captain in Razorback and a pair of Land Speeder Tornadoes(another storm, Hellios) with multi-meltas and heavy flamers in as an interference unit. As a result, I'm not sure how to run the Razorback upgrade-wise. A multi-melta would act as a good can-opener, but because I'm relying on other things to do that for me, I'm looking at other options. And are any of the additional upgrades any good(storm bolter, missile, dozer blade). Potentially related, how exactly is WYSIWYG interpreted? If my Razorback model shows a missile tube, a dozer blade, and extra armour, am I required to take those things, or can I leave them off my list and declare they don't count to my opponent? Are there any specific rules regarding this?

 

Anyway, hopefully this doesn't read as randomly as the original post. Give me any ideas you care to share.

[DarkGuard]

In regards to the Tactical squad load outs, they look fine. You've got one geared for anti-infantry with the flamer, but it can also take shots of opportunity with its MM if need be. You've got a more flexible squad with a plasma gun and MM which is area denial against most vehicles and units, and a dedicated anti-tank unit which can combat squad it's plasma cannon effectively allowing it to take on tanks and infantry at once. For Tactical squad A though I'd recommend a combi-melta, you want a couple of shots to make sure that one tank goes down. I'd also give Tactical squad B a combi-flamer, and Tactical squad C a combi-plasma, again doubling your output.

 

As many people on here will probably know I'm not a massive fan of combat weapons on Tactical squads. They often don't increase their damage output by enough to warrant their cost. All I'll say is that you should only really add them on later, after you've got nothing else to spend points on. IMO Tactical squad A warrants a power fist the most as it's most likely to be out of a Rhino, and it'll come in handy for charging the contents of a vehicle before they can charge you if you blow it up. Tactical squad B would be next if you still have points, as you can then assault units after hitting them with two flamer units. Tactical squad C shouldn't need one, as those weapons are best parked in midfield and fired out of a Rhino.

 

As for the Sternguard, I'm glad you liked it. 5/6 man aggressive squads can certainly work, I'd recommend highly the heavy flamer in this situation to make up for the loss in a couple of boltguns, the combi-weapons, as usual meltas for diversity, but the others can work. A Rhino allows the HF to fire out the top hatch, but the Razorback also helps bulk out their firepower. As for the power fist I'm torn on 5 man squads, there's a chance that weight of attacks will kill it off before it can attack, potentially losing you a couple of attacks that could have been used at I4 (if simultaneous), as well as wasting points. That inclusion will firmly be down to you and how you want to play it.