Fact-Finding About Alternate Formats

[Octavulg]

Right. Having sought clarification from Brother Tyler, we are allowed to discuss alternate formats. We're just not allowed to name them, by which is meant that we shall not come up with neat little sobriquets for them. We can refer to them as "Armageddon Campaign style" or what have you. Just no Fabrica Astartes.

 

On that basis, I'm collecting information for the Octaguide (and possibly for the DIY Guide, if Ferrata wants this when it's done).

 

There are three things we need to know about each possible format: where it first appeared, where examples can be found, and what it generally is like/information it includes.

 

So as an example, using the short and long blurbs in C:SM 5e.

 

Codex: Space Marines (5th Edition) style (short)

First appeared in C:SM 5e, which is where all known examples are found. Traditionally used for non-First Founding chapters as well as the Iron Hands.

Information: A color scheme, a picture of the chapter symbol on a shoulderpad, the chapter name, and a thirty to sixty word paragraph covering the chapter's character, notable quirks and/or recent history.

 

Codex: Space Marines (5th Edition) style (long)

First appeared in C:SM 5e, which is where all known examples are found. Traditionally used for First Founding chapters in C:SM 5e.

Information: A color scheme, a picture of the chapter symbol on a shoulderpad, a short quote that demonstrates some element of the chapter's character, a picture of a chapter banner, and another picture, usually of a famous chapter weapon (sometimes of unique chapter markings). Two paragraphs of information, totalling about a hundred and fifty to two hundred words, covering elements of the chapter's history, character, combat methods, and/or organization.

 

What else is there? What can such things generally be described like?

 

Note: you don't need to provide all the classification details if there are a lot of examples (the Imperial Armor 9 style ones, for example, are rather varied). Feel free to offer observations, speculation, and advice about particular formats. Just no naming them. Seriously. I think they mean it. :)

[Ioldanach]

Maybe it's just me, but this whole effort looks eerily familiar - very similar in intent (but not necessarily the exact same end-state) to this discussion. Perhaps we can prevail upon Brother Tyler to re-open that discussion and we can all cooperate in bringing what looks like a very positive outcome (providing a little creative variety to the B&C's members) to fruition.

[Octavulg]

It's similar, but I think the intent is fairly different. Tyler's project tries to create templates for formats. This is trying to explain how GW has generally used various formats in the past (including typical ranges of content) and where you can find examples of those formats. It could probably also produce some discussion of what formats try to do generally, which can be used to create suggestions and advice for making your own formats.

 

This is basically a guide to picking and using formats. His is a set of tools to help you do the latter. All in all, I think it's distinct enough to be its own discussion. They might be complementary, but the goals are different.

[Ace Debonair]

Right. Having sought clarification from Brother Tyler, we are allowed to discuss alternate formats. We're just not allowed to name them, by which is meant that we shall not come up with neat little sobriquets for them. We can refer to them as "Armageddon Campaign style" or what have you. Just no Fabrica Astartes.

 

In the interests of clarification, does that also mean no abbreviating "Armageddon Campaign style" to initials or so forth?

What? I just want to make sure I don't get in any trouble by accident when speed-typing responses later down the line!

 

I don't actually own any codexes or similar myself, so I can't really suggest any alternate formats. :P

 

 

EDIT: ...and linking this neatly to that discussion about paradigms and DIY-ing chapters being hard work:

 

The thing that immediately comes to mind is that the two suggested formats so far would be excellent for people who a] want to cover their chapter in a bit less depth and detail than a full-blown IA, or b] are new to writing about their 40k DIY chapters.

In many cases, the 5th-edition-codex-article-styles could make great starting points for more comprehensive histories, too. Summing up what you want in a few short paragraphs is always a good start.

[Octavulg]

I don't actually own any codexes or similar myself, so I can't really suggest any alternate formats. sweat.gif

 

Ace, you never cease to amaze me.

 

No, I don't know if that's a compliment or not.

 

What about the chapter datafiles used in the Librarium?

 

The thing that immediately comes to mind is that the two suggested formats so far would be excellent for people who a] want to cover their chapter in a bit less depth and detail than a full-blown IA, or b] are new to writing about their 40k DIY chapters.

In many cases, the 5th-edition-codex-article-styles could make great starting points for more comprehensive histories, too. Summing up what you want in a few short paragraphs is always a good start. happy.gif

 

I thought so. ;) I hadn't realized just how convenient they were (especially the long-form one) until I typed them up.

[Heru]

Right. Having sought clarification from Brother Tyler, we are allowed to discuss alternate formats. We're just not allowed to name them, by which is meant that we shall not come up with neat little sobriquets for them. We can refer to them as "Armageddon Campaign style" or what have you. Just no Fabrica Astartes.

That should only apply to official formats, not those that we the members invent ourselves.

 

Otherwise I don't want to invent something that is just going to be hijacked and twisted into something completely different.

 

I don't actually own any codexes or similar myself, so I can't really suggest any alternate formats. sweat.gif

 

Ace, you never cease to amaze me.

 

No, I don't know if that's a compliment or not.

Ace is a computer generated personality who only resides on the internet, that is why he doesn't own or read any printed media. ;)

[Octavulg]

That should only apply to official formats, not those that we the members invent ourselves.

 

Since any good format will have examples, it's a moot point for the moment. ;)

 

Besides, I'm worried about official ones (or at least extant ones) for the moment.

 

Ace is a computer generated personality who only resides on the internet, that is why he doesn't own or read any printed media. msn-wink.gif

 

So what you're saying is he can comment on all the leaked rumoured formats from forthcoming codices!

 

Dammit, Ace, why didn't you say so?

[Ace Debonair]

I don't actually own any codexes or similar myself, so I can't really suggest any alternate formats. sweat.gif

 

Ace, you never cease to amaze me.

 

No, I don't know if that's a compliment or not.

 

What about the chapter datafiles used in the Librarium?

 

But there's a whole internet's-worth of people who already own those books and are inclined to tell me when I put a foot wrong.

Buying the rules for a game I don't intend to play just to read the same stuff I've already read on the 'net is a very silly thing to do, even for me. ;)

 

As for the Librarium datafiles: well, you already seem to know more about them than me! ;)

 

Ace is a computer generated personality who only resides on the internet, that is why he doesn't own or read any printed media. ;)

That explains a lot. ;)

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I...sense...summoning...

 

So do you know if we could call them the C:SM(l) for ease of typing? I love my acronyms.

 

Currently, off the top of my head, I can think of the thing from Imperial Armor that shall not be called the IAIA, the long and short Codex: Space Marines ones, the format from the Dark Angels successors, the Index Astartes, and the color scheme plus name from How to Paint Space Marines.

[Octavulg]

General principles underlying any of those?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

The Imperial Armor one has been done to death in...the other, other topic which prompted the other topic. You got the Codex: Space Marines ones. For the Dark Angels, it's few paragraphs of compilation about the basic traits of the chapter, any notable organization or tactics, and a bit of history all wrapped up in a few short paragraphs, along with the title next to a picture of the chapter symbol. The How to Paint Space Marines one is just that: a paint scheme and a name, sometimes with a picture of an iconic unit for that chapter(or at least what the Studio has available). I think the last would be quite useful for something like Philip S's chapter gallery, where each chapter could have a painted unit, the SMP paint scheme, and the name.

[Brother Tyler]

It's similar, but I think the intent is fairly different. Tyler's project tries to create templates for formats. This is trying to explain how GW has generally used various formats in the past (including typical ranges of content) and where you can find examples of those formats. It could probably also produce some discussion of what formats try to do generally, which can be used to create suggestions and advice for making your own formats.

 

This is basically a guide to picking and using formats. His is a set of tools to help you do the latter. All in all, I think it's distinct enough to be its own discussion. They might be complementary, but the goals are different.

Actually, the goal of my article includes everything you're now doing, as well as the templates. There's no point providing a template for a format and not really explaining what it's about, after all. I was merely focusing on one step at a time in the discussion before it got sidetracked.

 

If you'd rather run that part of the work here, though, that's fine. I'll just leverage this portion of the work for the earlier effort.

[Octavulg]

Go for it.

 

Not now, obviously. Wait a bit. It's not done. :D

[voi shet magir]

What about that format of hosting half your website on geocities and half on webTV, with your only feedback or community involvement being a link exchange with that guy whose chapter are actually Tzeentchian witches in stolen power armor?

 

Obviously I am oblivious of this thread's topic. Why can't you refer to Imperial Armor articles? How many threads are

 

If you find some way to kill the Index Astartes, please do. I have a whole thread typed up on why people should stop making up homeworld sections and chapter masters, but posting it would be

 

Was it Commander Jennifer, or Clairice? You know the one I mean.

 

It's bad enough people think they need to come up with some foibles for the organization section, and that those are at all significant, but then six out ten posts on the board are people making exhaustive corrections and

 

There really was one on webTV, but he was actually really disparaging of commander sarah and the coastguard marines. He had this guide to chapter creation that was just links to other websites you should avoid emulating. Scythes of the Emperor this was not.

[Octavulg]

There is one critical flaw: nothing on WebTV is sufficiently consistent to be called a format.

 

And since I'm old enough to remember Usenet, WebTV also doesn't actually exist. Except in September.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

There is one flaw yet more critical: Are you talking about WebTV, the product, or WebTV, as in internet television?

[Shinzaren]

I think the information given in the outline style started by CKO, Legoss, and Ace is working out rather well. They have all had success using this format to gather information on the basic needs of the Chapter. I especially like Ace's idea of having multiple categories for his ideas, including Must Haves, Might Haves, and Off-The-Walls-That-Are-A-Result-Of-Madness-And-/-Or-Lack-Of-Sleep-Which-Can-Be-Discarded-Wholesale-As-The-Deranged-Ravings-Of-A-Lunatic-Mind. Actually, I don't know if that last one was a category any of them used, but it should be.

 

Otherwise you have the two major formats of the Index Astartes style and the Forgeworld Style. I personally think that any and all of these formats work fine. I would agree that the DiY and the Octaguides both need to be updated to include more formats, as right now we link those guides to nearly all newcomers and are basically force feeding them the IA format.

[Hyaenidae]

As an outsider, I'd like to put my personal opinion out there on this topic, if you gentlemen (and ladies?) don't mind. I have always wanted to present both my Chaos Warband and Space Marine DIY to the Liber (matter of fact, it was the original reason I joined this site), but I'm quite constricted time wise. I am a married man with four kids, serving in the military, and working long, long hours, plus disappear for a year at a time sometimes. I usually have little time to myself, and frankly, creating an IA as it has been done in the past is extremley daunting to me. I simply don't have the time to do something so in-depth as is required with the Index Astartes style writing. Something more like the Long Form 5th Ed. IA that Octavulg presented earlier, or even the not-named-but-known-as Forgeworld IA format would make it at least possible for me to finally accomplish my goal on this site, and I am sure will assist many others in being able to do the same.

 

The Liber here has for too long has seemed uncomfortably 'elite-ish' (forgive me, but that's how it feels sometimes), it would be nice to open the door a bit to more people; so they won't stop here once or twice, then run out never to return. (Please still kick our butts repeatedly when it comes to constructive critisism though, lol)

 

Thanks for your time.