Battle of the Fang

[Redfinger]

So I am not a big Space Wolves fan, but I decided to check out the book as a means to try and understand the the SW chapter a little better.

 

I can say that is was not quite what I expected, but not entirely great either. The writing was organized nicely and flowed well from scene to scene, the characters were unique though there were a few stereotypical roles that seem to be in almost every SM/40k book I have read. I enjoyed the fluff and now understand a little better some of the game mechanics that SW's use. In particular I enjoyed Bjorn, it is not often that you get to be exposed to a little bit of the personality and history that comes from a dreadnought. In addition I found the descriptive writing of the aggressive and barbaric nature of the SW's versus the elegant and almost beautiful description of the 1000 sons to be intriguing and a nice compare and contrast of the 2 organizations, it almost seemed a role reversal in some ways.

 

As always, my beef with SM/40k books is the ignorance and blindness that all SM chapters seem to peruse their goals with, in addition the petty and human ways that they go about solving the problems they face. I know I have brought this point up before, and it is often met with the remark that the SM's need to be humanized so that we can identify with them better...but I dont really buy that argument....I would really love to see a writer step up and give us accurate depiction of the Astartes...but I as long as GW continues to pine to the immature and instant gratification driven masses, I think these books will continue to be shallow and under developed.

 

All in all, in comparison to the other SM books that I have read I would give this one a 6.5/10, it is a nice read, some good fluff, but sorely predictable.

 

Ashton

[Gree]

As always, my beef with SM/40k books is the ignorance and blindness that all SM chapters seem to peruse their goals with, in addition the petty and human ways that they go about solving the problems they face. I know I have brought this point up before, and it is often met with the remark that the SM's need to be humanized so that we can identify with them better...but I dont really buy that argument....I would really love to see a writer step up and give us accurate depiction of the Astartes...but I as long as GW continues to pine to the immature and instant gratification driven masses, I think these books will continue to be shallow and under developed.

 

A 100% fluff accurate Space Marine book would feature non-stop training, fighting, praying to Primarch, upkeep of weapons and studying of tactics. And pretty much nothing else. A fluff accurate Marine book would be boring as hell.

 

Fighting would pretty much be this.

 

‘’Contact made. Hostiles Eliminated.’’

 

‘’Praise the Primarch, continue on patrol route. Squad Septimus reroute arrival to Sector 10 in his name.’’

 

I of course recognise the Wolves's own unique traits in regard to personality.

[Redfinger]

A 100% fluff accurate Space Marine book would feature non-stop training, fighting, praying to Primarch, upkeep of weapons and studying of tactics. And pretty much nothing else. A fluff accurate Marine book would be boring as hell.

 

I disagree...read some Tom Clancy novels, like "Clear and Present Danger" or the "Sum of All Fears" and "Patriot Games" very accurate in the mod and manner of the how military conducts operations, and at the same time delivers excellent character development and wonderful plots...

 

It can be done but takes a degree of talent that GW seems uninterested in pursuing.

 

Ashton

[Gree]

A 100% fluff accurate Space Marine book would feature non-stop training, fighting, praying to Primarch, upkeep of weapons and studying of tactics. And pretty much nothing else. A fluff accurate Marine book would be boring as hell.

 

I disagree...read some Tom Clancy novels, like "Clear and Present Danger" or the "Sum of All Fears" and "Patriot Games" very accurate in the mod and manner of the how military conducts operations, and at the same time delivers excellent character development and wonderful plots...

 

It can be done but takes a degree of talent that GW seems uninterested in pursuing.

 

Ashton

 

No, those involve human beings who have lives. They involve human beings who have familes, hopes, dreams, likes, dislikes, personal ambitions, lusts, etc, etc.

 

They do not involve heavily brainwashed and indoctrinated post-human demigods who have a fanaticism that would make the SS blush with envy. Astartes have no hopes or dreams beyond serving Emperor and Primarch. They have no lust beyond battle. Their only family is their battle brothers. Their likes and dislikes could be summed up in a few sentences. They literally have no lives beyond being killing machines. They are not really human mentally anymore.

[Wulfebane]

To the OP, if you want to understand the Space Wolf "character" a bit better, where the Battle of the Fang is a good indication of Space Wolves, it was perhaps spread too thin to give true flavor of what it is to BE a Space Wolf.

 

I think Prospero Burns, where a Terran anthropologist goes to study the Wolves, and (even though a lot of people find it less so) the first Space Wolf Omnibus, where you follow Ragnar's progression from a fenrisian tribesman, are better at developing the Space Wolf character.

 

BotF got a lot of acclaim, and rightly so, due to it finally fleshing out a rather historic point in both armies' past. But as to character development, I think it fell a bit short in comparison.

[Redfinger]

No, those involve human beings who have lives. They involve human beings who have familes, hopes, dreams, likes, dislikes, personal ambitions, lusts, etc, etc.

 

They do not involve heavily brainwashed and indoctrinated post-human demigods who have a fanaticism that would make the SS blush with envy. Astartes have no hopes or dreams beyond serving Emperor and Primarch. They have no lust beyond battle. Their only family is their battle brothers. Their likes and dislikes could be summed up in a few sentences. They literally have no lives beyond being killing machines. They are not really human mentally anymore.

 

For a second there I though you were describing a typical grunt in the USMC.....Though you do prove my point well....the SM's are super human, even beyond that in some ways as you amply described....so why portray them in that way in written form....I really think that it can be done better, that is the point I am trying to make.

 

Ashton

[Gree]

For a second there I though you were describing a typical grunt in the USMC

 

I'm not sure if you've ever met an actual member of the military.

 

I have ex-military members in my family and I can count ex-Marines and ex-Army members as friends. I've spoken to veterans, both current and retired.

 

You know what they all have in common?

 

A personality. Actual hopes, dreams, likes, dislikes. They are actually human.

[rusty1109]

I picked this book up for 50p at a carboot on sunday, glad to hear that it should be a good read as well as a bargain!

[Redfinger]

I'm not sure if you've ever met an actual member of the military.

 

I have ex-military members in my family and I can count ex-Marines and ex-Army members as friends. I've spoken to veterans, both current and retired.

 

You know what they all have in common?

 

A personality. Actual hopes, dreams, likes, dislikes. They are actually human.

 

 

how did my expression of an opinion on a book I read turn into a personal attack? I would rather not justify my opinions by letting the internet know the details of my persoanl life and experiences.

 

My short review of the book and the inept ability for GW to produce a book for a reader with a mind set greater than 10th grader is the issue I am discussing. If you got your panties in a bunch because I simply disagreed with you then I would suggest you take a look in the mirror and try figuring out what your own "hopes, dreams, and desires" are...then once you have gotten over yourself you can come back to the big boy table and share some honest opinion free from personal attacks...

 

Ashton

[MalachiOfRuss]

As always, my beef with SM/40k books is the ignorance and blindness that all SM chapters seem to peruse their goals with, in addition the petty and human ways that they go about solving the problems they face.

 

Perhaps you could expand on that and get more specific? Did you have a problem with Ironhelm being duped so easily for the trap? Or Wyrmblade's pursuit of the Tempering? Or what specifically did you see as "petty and human" about how the SW behaved?

[Gree]

how did my expression of an opinion on a book I read turn into a personal attack?

 

Good question. When did it turn into a personal attack? How have I attacked you? I asked you a question.

 

I would rather not justify my opinions by letting the internet know the details of my persoanl life and experiences.

 

So you made a claim and cannot back it up.

 

My short review of the book and the inept ability for GW to produce a book for a reader with a mind set greater than 10th grader is the issue I am discussing.

 

And I have taken the liberty to inform you on how Astartes act in comparison to real-life human beings.

 

If you got your panties in a bunch because I simply disagreed with you then I would suggest you take a look in the mirror and try figuring out what your own "hopes, dreams, and desires" are...then once you have gotten over yourself you can come back to the big boy table and share some honest opinion free from personal attacks...

 

Pot meet kettle. This this is certainly a personal attack.

 

This is hardly suprising, I point out the Astartes are personality-free killing machines and you are unable to reply in any other way than a personal attack. It seems you don't like it when people point out the flaws in your assertions.

[Redfinger]

As always, my beef with SM/40k books is the ignorance and blindness that all SM chapters seem to peruse their goals with, in addition the petty and human ways that they go about solving the problems they face.

 

Perhaps you could expand on that and get more specific? Did you have a problem with Ironhelm being duped so easily for the trap? Or Wyrmblade's pursuit of the Tempering? Or what specifically did you see as "petty and human" about how the SW behaved?

 

 

Fair question....I did not want to delve to far into the plot because of spoilers though, since you mentioned it though, yeah the ease at which Ironhelm was duped seemed a little of an easy way out for the author, perhaps a bit more of a build up to the launching of the fleet, some preliminary firefights or something, it reminded me of the way the BA's were duped in Dues Encarmine, just seemed too simplistic on the authors part. As far as Wrymblade goes, I actually found him to be one of the more interesting characters of the book, and would have loved a more commentary around him.

 

I also found he banter between Redpelt and Helfist to be stereotypical and too human. As their fates unfolded I really did not feel any interest in what was to become of them, the scenes of them in the training cages was some of the hardest pages to progress through, the dialogue was just too human.

 

@Wulf, many others have recommended Omnibus as well, and it does sound interesting.

 

Ashton

[Ranwulf]

I don't get it. What is a "true Astartes", Redfinger? If you could explain that better I would understand what you mean, because so far in pretty much most of the fluff, Astartes actually have some feelings, and even ambitions and dreams (hell, look at Lord Thunderfist in the Space Wolves novels, he is sure as hell wants glory and the position of Great Wolf after the passing of Old Grimnar).

 

Ran

[Redfinger]

Good question. When did it turn into a personal attack? How have I attacked you? I asked you a question.

 

No, you asked me to justify my opinion by sharing personal information, weather or not I have served in the military, have acquaintances that have been in the military, or don't care for the military is irrelevant, and has nothing to do with my original proposed arguments, your comment of my involvement in the military made it personal. And I would point out, that in your counter my argument, you actually proved the point I was making.

 

 

So you made a claim and cannot back it up.

 

See previous statement; however, i should not need to "back" anything up with personal proof, in arguments these are the least convicing kind of proof, again an attempt to make this argument personal.

 

And I have taken the liberty to inform you on how Astartes act in comparison to real-life human beings.

 

Yes, and further proved my point that in describing something inhuman as human in literature can provide less than interesting and acceptable outcomes.

 

 

If you got your panties in a bunch because I simply disagreed with you then I would suggest you take a look in the mirror and try figuring out what your own "hopes, dreams, and desires" are...then once you have gotten over yourself you can come back to the big boy table and share some honest opinion free from personal attacks...

 

Pot meet kettle. This this is certainly a personal attack.

 

This is hardly suprising, I point out the Astartes are personality-free killing machines and you are unable to reply in any other way than a personal attack. It seems you don't like it when people point out the flaws in your assertions.

 

yep you are right it is, and it was intended to come across as such and I have no problem admitting that and saying it, I expressed an opinion, you made it personal, and I defended my self.

 

Ashton

[Gree]

No, you asked me to justify my opinion by sharing personal information, weather or not I have served in the military, have acquaintances that have been in the military, or don't care for the military is irrelevant, and has nothing to do with my original proposed arguments, your comment of my involvement in the military made it personal.

 

So in other words it's not a personal attack at all? But that's what you claimed?

 

You made a claim about a Marine grunt and I pointed out why exactly that was wrong and asked you somethign intended to be a curious and polite question if you actually knew what you where claiming.

 

And I would point out, that in your counter my argument, you actually proved the point I was making.

 

How so?

 

yep you are right it is, and it was intended to come across as such and I have no problem admitting that and saying it, I expressed an opinion, you made it personal, and I defended my self.

 

Ashton

 

Ah, so you admit it? You are aware that is against site rules correct? That's essentially trolling?

 

The mods have been alerted.

[Redfinger]

I don't get it. What is a "true Astartes", Redfinger? If you could explain that better I would understand what you mean, because so far in pretty much most of the fluff, Astartes actually have some feelings, and even ambitions and dreams (hell, look at Lord Thunderfist in the Space Wolves novels, he is sure as hell wants glory and the position of Great Wolf after the passing of Old Grimnar).

 

Ran

 

Great!! now we are getting some where!! I am unfamiliar with Thunderfist, I don't think I have read those books yet. I can appreciate the SM's having a pursuit and even a passion for things, but my fault here is with the author, not necessarily the conduct, the conduct is simply the result or by product of the writer, and I think could be done better. I already mentioned my issue with Ironhelm and the whole Redpelt/Helfist relationship. So let me focus on a character I did like, Wrymblade.

 

As little as I know about Space Wolves, I felt Wrymblades character was one that resembled what I felt a worlf priest should be, strong, ancient and wise, caught between the shackles of tradition and the pull of change. This internal and external conflict really developed him as a character and made him unique among the stereotypical lines and archetypal leaders.

 

The struggles that have been mentioned can exist in an SM book, but I feel the GW needs to step up it's game in the production of these books, and start pulling away from constantly relying on "human experiences" to be the basis for the plot's moving forward.

 

Ashton

[Redfinger]

No, you asked me to justify my opinion by sharing personal information, weather or not I have served in the military, have acquaintances that have been in the military, or don't care for the military is irrelevant, and has nothing to do with my original proposed arguments, your comment of my involvement in the military made it personal.

 

 

So in other words it's not a personal attack at all? But that's what you claimed?

 

I would direct you back to the comments that I just quoted, backing up arguments by personal claims the weakest argument possible. Again asking me to "prove" something by a personal statement is ludicrous, because here on the internet, anything can be said as true, and can be very difficult to substantiate, if I told you that I was a Major of SAR operations for 10 years at El Toro before it closed, and that I spent 30 years working with marines and saw just how indoctrinated they were and the process that the corps went through in brainwashing and indoctrinating marines to train them that there job was to die for the corps...if I told you this as the credence for my statement then how can you prove that? There is no way to realistically do, so why try and make it personal? Just use logic and reason...

 

How so?

 

To quote a previous statement you made;

 

"They do not involve heavily brainwashed and indoctrinated post-human demigods who have a fanaticism that would make the SS blush with envy. Astartes have no hopes or dreams beyond serving Emperor and Primarch. They have no lust beyond battle. Their only family is their battle brothers. Their likes and dislikes could be summed up in a few sentences. They literally have no lives beyond being killing machines. They are not really human mentally anymore. "

 

This is my problem with SM books, they take the very non-human being you have described, and try to make him human, I have a problem with that.

 

 

yep you are right it is, and it was intended to come across as such and I have no problem admitting that and saying it, I expressed an opinion, you made it personal, and I defended my self.

 

Ashton

 

Ah, so you admit it? You are aware that is against site rules correct? That's essentially trolling?

 

The mods have been alerted.

 

Thanks for alerting the mods to the fact that I have broken a rule, it is not the first time I have broken a rule, and it wont be the last time I am sure. Perhaps the mod's will lock the thread, which would be a shame as there is starting to be a good dialogue here with some other members....Maybe they will ban me, which would be a shame since I really was not the one to break the rules first, as you took this topic "off topic" first when you made it a personal argument and not an objective argument...and if the mods have a problem with me trying to remain objective, and separating my personal statements from my objective statements, then this board has problems that are far worse than our little banter here.

 

Ashton

[Gree]

I would direct you back to the comments that I just quoted, backing up arguments by personal claims the weakest argument possible.

 

That still does not make it a personal attack.

 

I would direct you back to the comments that I just quoted, backing up arguments by personal claims the weakest argument possible. Again asking me to "prove" something by a personal statement is ludicrous, because here on the internet, anything can be said as true, and can be very difficult to substantiate, if I told you that I was a Major of SAR operations for 10 years at El Toro before it closed, and that I spent 30 years working with marines and saw just how indoctrinated they were and the process that the corps went through in brainwashing and indoctrinating marines to train them that there job was to die for the corps...if I told you this as the credence for my statement then how can you prove that? There is no way to realistically do, so why try and make it personal? Just use logic and reason...

 

Alright then, can you go and give me solid quotes and sources from the internet proving to me that US Marines are personality-free, emotionless demigod killing machines?

 

This is my problem with SM books, they take the very non-human being you have described, and try to make him human, I have a problem with that.

 

That still does not support your argument that making them more human makes the book less interesting and boring. Portraying them as their fluff-perfect self makes them into very flat characters.

 

Thanks for alerting the mods to the fact that I have broken a rule, it is not the first time I have broken a rule, and it wont be the last time I am sure.

 

Ah, so you admit you broke the rules.

 

Perhaps the mod's will lock the thread, which would be a shame as there is starting to be a good dialogue here with some other members....

 

Perhaps you should.........I don't know, follow the rules?

 

Maybe they will ban me, which would be a shame since I really was not the one to break the rules first, as you took this topic "off topic" first when you made it a personal argument and not an objective argument...

 

You are incorrect. It was you who first brought up the US Marine comparison and you who launched the personal attack. Eveyrthing I have said is related to your original post.

 

and if the mods have a problem with me trying to remain objective, and separating my personal statements from my objective statements, then this board has problems that are far worse than our little banter here.

 

Perhaps you should try not launching personal attacks at people who disagree with you?

[MalachiOfRuss]

Fair question....I did not want to delve to far into the plot because of spoilers though, since you mentioned it though, yeah the ease at which Ironhelm was duped seemed a little of an easy way out for the author, perhaps a bit more of a build up to the launching of the fleet, some preliminary firefights or something, it reminded me of the way the BA's were duped in Dues Encarmine, just seemed too simplistic on the authors part.

Yeah, perhaps it was "too easy" for him to be lead into a trap. However, it is the basic "conceit" of the book that the Wolves get lured into a situation where their fortress is truly threatened. Also keep in mind that this is, by the admission of SW history, an exceptional situation. In looking back, all SW leaders acknowledge that Ironhelm made a severe mistake in allowing himself to be duped. I thought I read somewhere that there is a shrine on Fenris where SW leaders can go now and hear Ironhelm retell his story and warn all future SW leaders of the dangers of being led astray.

 

I also found he banter between Redpelt and Helfist to be stereotypical and too human. As their fates unfolded I really did not feel any interest in what was to become of them, the scenes of them in the training cages was some of the hardest pages to progress through, the dialogue was just too human.

How do you think it should have been written instead? Coming from the "starting point" that Blood Claws of the Space Wolves are described as being arrogant, convinced of their own invincibility, and undisciplined.

 

Also keep in my through all of this, that Space Wolves are considered "abnormal" among Space Marines in general. Pretty much all other Marines consider them undisciplined, unorthodox, "barbarians." So looking for "typical" Space Marine behaviour in a book about Space Wolves is a contradiction from the start.

 

One point I do agree with you is the underwhelming nature of the fight with Magnus at the end. Especially the repeated "then he remembered he was a Primarch" lines. It was unfortunate that the author kept coming back to that (I think it was at least 3 times). His editor should have caught that and had in him rework the scene. It was unfortunate that the climax of the book turned out to be one of the most disappointing parts, but I don't think it ruined the book completely.

 

The absolute gem of the book, IMO, is how it describes the Dreadnoughts and especially Bjorn.

[alphalupine]

I feel it's important to note that, unlike the Primarchs, the Astartes are genetically enhanced humans. The emphasis on the human for this scenario. Throughout the Astartes process the person they were isn't removed, it simply takes a back seat to a more important duty to the chapter, the Primarch, and the Emperor. So basically like modern military, they take you, break you, and reform you to a disciplined fighting machine. You don't lose who you are but you are trained to suit your job, for however long it takes for you to die.

 

The second thing to note is that each chapter takes aspirants from a particular world. Each world has a sterotypical "character" trait. Fenris, being a DeathWorld, produces dry and gruff individuals. This doesn't mean they're all like that but when writing to fans you will see it more often than not because it's what is expected.

 

As I haven't read "Battle for the Fang" yet I can't comment on it. I have, however, read the books that encompass the Omnibus, A Thousand Sons, and Prospero Burns. In these books I find the demeanor of the Rout to be on par with my perceptions. Perhaps you can read a few more books and maybe it will come together?

[Redfinger]

Fair question....I did not want to delve to far into the plot because of spoilers though, since you mentioned it though, yeah the ease at which Ironhelm was duped seemed a little of an easy way out for the author, perhaps a bit more of a build up to the launching of the fleet, some preliminary firefights or something, it reminded me of the way the BA's were duped in Dues Encarmine, just seemed too simplistic on the authors part.

Yeah, perhaps it was "too easy" for him to be lead into a trap. However, it is the basic "conceit" of the book that the Wolves get lured into a situation where their fortress is truly threatened. Also keep in mind that this is, by the admission of SW history, an exceptional situation. In looking back, all SW leaders acknowledge that Ironhelm made a severe mistake in allowing himself to be duped. I thought I read somewhere that there is a shrine on Fenris where SW leaders can go now and hear Ironhelm retell his story and warn all future SW leaders of the dangers of being led astray.

 

I don't recall the shrine being a place where Ironhelm can retell his story, just that it would be placed as a reminder...Otherwise your point is well taken, and my own lack of SW history definitely influenced my original opinion.

 

I also found he banter between Redpelt and Helfist to be stereotypical and too human. As their fates unfolded I really did not feel any interest in what was to become of them, the scenes of them in the training cages was some of the hardest pages to progress through, the dialogue was just too human.

How do you think it should have been written instead? Coming from the "starting point" that Blood Claws of the Space Wolves are described as being arrogant, convinced of their own invincibility, and undisciplined.

 

Also keep in my through all of this, that Space Wolves are considered "abnormal" among Space Marines in general. Pretty much all other Marines consider them undisciplined, unorthodox, "barbarians." So looking for "typical" Space Marine behaviour in a book about Space Wolves is a contradiction from the start.

 

Another excellent point and something I did not clarify to well in my original post, that I am making an comparison here to all of the battle books I have read so far, I suppose when looking at the SW one specifically having an expectation of what a SM should act like, then it it difficult to compare that to a chapter that clearly dont act like SM's.

 

As far as the banter between Redpelt and Helfist,I dont know how it should have gone, I suppose that if I did know I would be writing the books ;) However the author's portrayal of them was a bit over the top, I think one of the best description I have ever read though of how an Astartes should be, came toward the end when the female sergeant was witnessing the way that a blood claw had dived into a group of 1000 Sons...I dent recall the word for word, but after reading that short paragraph I remember thinking this is how the Astartes should be described....I will see if I can find it an post the description later.

 

Again I will go back a point that I already made, the authors attempt at humanizing the SM's, in conveying there personalities and traits, in my opinion fell short.

 

 

One point I do agree with you is the underwhelming nature of the fight with Magnus at the end. Especially the repeated "then he remembered he was a Primarch" lines. It was unfortunate that the author kept coming back to that (I think it was at least 3 times). His editor should have caught that and had in him rework the scene. It was unfortunate that the climax of the book turned out to be one of the most disappointing parts, but I don't think it ruined the book completely.

 

The absolute gem of the book, IMO, is how it describes the Dreadnoughts and especially Bjorn.

 

Agreed on both points, the battle as anti-climatic, and the dreadnought was amazing. I remener when I read "Rynn's World" I felt so robbed at the end with the crappy way the author rolled out the last battle, my feeling was much the same with this one. As far as the dread goes, I have always thought it cool that a book could come out that would have 2 parts, event leading up to an SM being entombed in a dread, and then the 2nd part would be his experiences as a dread.....if done right that could be some fun reading!!

 

@alpha, I am not sure how to multi-quote, but wanted to reply to your comments; I think your analogy of the military v. astartes is great, I had never thought of it that way, and in doing so perhaps the humanistic traits can be made easier to swallow, but I will still say, that this author did not make that comparison well.

[TiguriusX]

You knuckleheads knock off the bickering. This thread has some potential to teach others the history and lore of the Space Wolves (or Vylka Fenryka as some of our more devoted members will insist)

 

 

To keep on point...

 

The folly of Ironhelm is a cautionary tale retold with great respect in our Chapter. We learn from our mistakes and put safeguards in place so it would never happen again. It coincides with the same caution our geneseed requires. Space Wolves are predators and hunt their prey but they do not charge blindly into combat. We risk losing ourselves (to Chaos via the curse of the Wulfen....to planetary assaults due to feints by our enemies...etc) if we forget this.

 

Despite all the hatred we bear for Magnus and the 1K Sons the folly of Ironhelm taught us to keep our wits in check.

 

I recognize my folly and will be sure to correct it.

[elithren]

IMHO, space marines can, and often are, full of personality. It's the desire, aspiration, and dreams that lead to the Badab war. Huron wanted his own legion and power for himself, showing plenty more then the "Roger Roger" depiction that some believe. Yes, they are taught alot of stuff to follow and are highly ritualistic, but that doesn't mean they completely "delete" who they were. I particularly like the Dawn of war 2 games, where the squad sergeants are all very different in personality, and they aren't even SW. It comes down to what you get out of the fluff and interpretation. I will also second the suggestion of the Ragnar novels as they do clearly address the learning/indoctrination process during the normal human to space wolf time period, but Ragnar maintains his personality, as do almost all the main characters you run across, Sven being one of my favorites.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Redfinger and Gree -- knock it off right now. You both are derailing this thread and I dare say Gree you are doing it on purpose. Get back to the topic and knock off the tit for tat or stop posting. I would much rather not have to hand out warnings but the melta gun is gonna fire if people don't get back on topic.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

As always, my beef with SM/40k books is the ignorance and blindness that all SM chapters seem to peruse their goals with, in addition the petty and human ways that they go about solving the problems they face.

 

Perhaps you could expand on that and get more specific? Did you have a problem with Ironhelm being duped so easily for the trap? Or Wyrmblade's pursuit of the Tempering? Or what specifically did you see as "petty and human" about how the SW behaved?

 

 

Fair question....I did not want to delve to far into the plot because of spoilers though, since you mentioned it though, yeah the ease at which Ironhelm was duped seemed a little of an easy way out for the author, perhaps a bit more of a build up to the launching of the fleet, some preliminary firefights or something, it reminded me of the way the BA's were duped in Dues Encarmine, just seemed too simplistic on the authors part. As far as Wrymblade goes, I actually found him to be one of the more interesting characters of the book, and would have loved a more commentary around him.

 

With the being lured out thing, the Space Wolves have been hunting Magnus for centuries, and Magnus seems to have been deliberately annoying them. They're all tired of this hunt, and just want it over with, so they're looking for a quick, simple, easy out. When Magnus shows up on the planet, they're naturally going to jump at the chance to finally end it. Even Space Marines have a limit to their patience.