Battle of the Fang

[Redfinger]

These are all excellent points and none that I disagree with, I just I am getting tired of 40k authors pandering to the "17 and under" crowd, I would really like to see a serious author tackle a SM novel or series....someone on caliber with Terry Goodkind or Tom Clancy. The over simplified expressions are just getting old.

 

Ashton

[Valerian]

Fair question....I did not want to delve to far into the plot because of spoilers though, since you mentioned it though, yeah the ease at which Ironhelm was duped seemed a little of an easy way out for the author, perhaps a bit more of a build up to the launching of the fleet, some preliminary firefights or something, it reminded me of the way the BA's were duped in Dues Encarmine, just seemed too simplistic on the authors part.

Yeah, perhaps it was "too easy" for him to be lead into a trap. However, it is the basic "conceit" of the book that the Wolves get lured into a situation where their fortress is truly threatened. Also keep in mind that this is, by the admission of SW history, an exceptional situation. In looking back, all SW leaders acknowledge that Ironhelm made a severe mistake in allowing himself to be duped. I thought I read somewhere that there is a shrine on Fenris where SW leaders can go now and hear Ironhelm retell his story and warn all future SW leaders of the dangers of being led astray.

 

I don't recall the shrine being a place where Ironhelm can retell his story, just that it would be placed as a reminder...Otherwise your point is well taken, and my own lack of SW history definitely influenced my original opinion.

 

Famous Battles of the Fang

 

"It is one of the greatest Citadels of the Imperium, and several times during its long history it has almost fallen to enemies. The first time was during the 32nd Millennium, after the end of the Horus Heresy. Magnus the Red, Primarch of the Thousand Sons, determined to take revenge for the devastation of his home world Prospero by Leman Russ and his followers, launched a series of devastating raids on the worlds near Fenris. Great Wolf Harek Ironhelm sought for many years to bring Magnus to battle. Several times Magnus appeared to him as a vision among the ruins of devastated cities and taunted the Great Wolf for his inability to stop him. After many fruitless efforts to catch up with the raiders, Harek became obsessed and took to searching worlds along the edge of the Eye of Terror itself. Eventually he found what he believed to be the Thousand Sons' secret base on Gangava and

launched a full-scale attack against it.

 

In this he was deceived. Gangava was held by a strong garrison of Chaos forces allied to Magnus but these were a distraction. Even as Harek attacked Gangava, the fleet of the Thousand Sons and their Chaotic levies appeared in orbit over Fenris. The Fang was held only by a skeleton force of Space Wolves and their thralls. For forty days and forty nights the Thousand Sons assaulted the Citadel. Bjorn the Fell-Handed, most ancient of the Space Wolves' Dreadnoughts, was awoken from his long sleep and took charge of the defence. Under Bjorn's direction the Space Wolves fell back to the innermost chambers of the Fang, collapsing the tunnels as they went. Simultaneously, a force of Scouts, under Haakon Blackwing, managed to escape from the Citadel and take ship to Gangava, bringing word of the siege to Harek.

 

Harek was overcome with fury and shame at his folly and immediately returned to Fenris, taking the Space Wolves with him. Finally, on the slopes of the Fang itself, he met Magnus in battle. The evil Primarch was too strong for him and slew Harek, but not before taking a terrible wound himself. The Thousand Sons withdrew before the blood-mad Space Wolves. Harek was buried on the upper slopes of the Fang, and his crypt is now a shrine. It is said that when Rune Priests undergo their ordeal of initiation they must make a pilgrimage there and be warned by the spirit of Harek against trusting visions granted by Chaos."

 

-------- From the Wolves of Fenris article, White Dwarf 246, July 2000.

 

Valerian

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

These are all excellent points and none that I disagree with, I just I am getting tired of 40k authors pandering to the "17 and under" crowd, I would really like to see a serious author tackle a SM novel or series....someone on caliber with Terry Goodkind or Tom Clancy. The over simplified expressions are just getting old.

 

Ashton

 

I'd say quite a bit of the Horus Heresy novels, as well as Battle of the Fang, are more characterful novels than previously mentioned. And have you met or heard of A D-B? Pure excellence in literary works right there. There's a reason BL sold 5,500 copies of one, small, expensive, hard to get book in two days.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I've read 5 WH40K books and I have to say on the whole I found them pretty poor. I really didn't like Prospero Burns (to be fair, it didn't help that it was so ridiculously mis-titled ... which I'm sure was due to marketing pressure with virtually nothing to do with Prospero). I didn't think the Space Wolves came across at all .... although the idea of showing them through the eyes of a "normal" human was a good one .... it wasn't done well.

 

Out of the one I have read - the Eisenhorn trilogy was by far and away the best. Well written ... lots of scope .... lots of characters (with character). Shame Propero Burns wasn't anywhere near as good.

 

I think I will try BoTF next then .... see what I think of that.

[sergant k]

In response to IronHelm being duped i feel the ease of it was accurately addressed. It explained how he was led on and goaded by Magnus and we know that Vlka Fenryka are proud warriors, they value honor glory brave deeds and epic heroes. Look at the codex 4 hqs instead of 2. Anyway Ironhelm was trick ed because Magnus played into his wolf like spirit. the counter to that is Greylock who cautions against such rash action but is ignored because he doesn't fit in. The description of why he doesnt fit in is accurate to how the wolves think, hes a loner not part of the pack, he often advise cautious action over attack. In a world of apex predators caution is not as important as for victory. I think it perfectly plays into the character of the spacewolves and how they operate like a wolf pack.

 

 

 

On the topic of SM's having character let me say this. I've read almost every SM novel all the HH novels Ultramarine SW and GK omnibus's salamander novels even some chaos novels. If SM's didnt have character then the books would be extremely boring. What makes SM's interesting to me is that yes they are humans from warrior cultures but they have such a higher level of thinking and combat ability that they act differently. There old human spirit never dies or goes away its just tempered and stripped of weakness by there training. The heresey couldn't have happened without human emotions and feelings. How could SM make the choice to defend a planet deemed lost by data and emerge heroic. It seems to me that if you took away the human aspect of SM there would be countless books about cyborg killing machines who slaughter everything in there path. If you take the human element out of SM they cease to be heroes.

 

My last point is if you don't like SM or SW or GW novels don't read them. Alot of times the stories are written to address/ produce new fluff for hobbiers to use and if you read them solely based on literary depth then your missing the point of 40k books.

 

For Russ and the AllFather!!!!

[Karack Blackstone]

The problem of the Space Marine in WH40K is that the role and job of a Marine is being filtered through the lens of nearly 38,000 years in the future, the loss of factual data is virtually assured without the presence of outside influence. With outside influence, the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition, there's a great deal of what the role is shaped into being. That a Space Marine is not known as a Marine first and foremost should be a sign that much has indeed been lost.

 

The humanness and personal features that come together to make a current Marine would after nearly 38,000 years clearly lead to an absence of vital details in terms of both personal outlook as well as the problem of having someone not fully understand their purpose in life. That a Space Marine is known as a Space Marine without the knowledge of the history of any sort of Marine Corps is the problem, in my mind. The fact that the Emperor apparently could not easily reveal this to his Chosen Sons is also rather interesting. I personally think that from what is covered in the books, much of the detail we all as players would salivate over and love to get our hands on may never come.

 

That the Space Wolves love and defend Humanity is somewhat blunted by the fact that the Huskaerl in defense of the Fang are virtually unrecorded in terms of history. That the Fang's core defenders cannot be apparently regarded as a history preserving part of what occurs to me is troubling, and that may be intentional. With the workings of the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy inside the Imperium, the issue is that so much of what the Inquisition became after the Horus Heresy was a preventive force towards change; any change, at that. They so stagnated Humanity that few innovations have occurred in time. The problem becomes how to deal with a force that Logan Grimnar himself has learned the hard way is a difficult thing to cross. And as evidenced by the current Codex, the Inquisition is ready to accuse anyone of being a heretic for not towing to the party line.

 

In my current WH40K RPG game, this has been addressed. The question is how GW will address this major area of history being hidden away by many in the name of protection.

 

Edit: name-subject fail.

[Scyld Fireblade]

As far as Redpelt and Helfist go, remember that they are Blood Claws. They are young and relatively inexperienced at the beginning. In fact, they are only mildly seperated from Fenrisian tribesmen compared to their elders like Blackwing and Wyrmblade. I enjoyed seeing them mature and begin to realize what it truly means to be an Astartes and a son of Russ.

[Valerian]

These are all excellent points and none that I disagree with, I just I am getting tired of 40k authors pandering to the "17 and under" crowd, I would really like to see a serious author tackle a SM novel or series....someone on caliber with Terry Goodkind or Tom Clancy. The over simplified expressions are just getting old.

 

Ashton

 

Ashton,

 

I think that you just need to better manage your expectations. You don't go reading from the Black Library selections to try to find the same quality that you would get from Robert Jordan, Isaac Asimov, or Robert Heinlein, etc. If they were top-tier authors they'd be doing something else, rather than pumping out novels to support the international sales machine of a company that produces pewter and plastic models.

 

V

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Would you mind giving some examples from the novels that are relatively well-known as good and characterful that show what you don't like? Right now I'm just not getting exactly what you mean, though that's probably because I'm a little nuts today.

[sergant k]

Valerian is totally right. The books are written not to be literary works of genius but to help sell a wonderful hobby by making it a bit deeper. These books are written for fans of 40k who use the books as inspiration and as a data base along with adding to the already massive world of 40k.