A Knights' Tale

[Lady_Canoness]

Hello Everyone,

 

This is an avenue through which I want to relate my experiences building, playing, and strategizing with the Grey Knights, and hopefully provide a platform for my particular brand of gaming philosophy. This might take some time, but I think it is something worth sharing.

 

I'll start things off with a little blurb about why I chose the army, and a little history that came before it.

I started playing 40k about 8 years ago when I was in high school, and at the time my 40k 'mentor' (so to speak) played Daemonhunters - the very army whose pictures I had drooled over in WD before starting the hobby, but never got around to playing. He'd been playing the game for longer than I'd been alive, and every time we played he'd remind me that his list was so unimpressive that he really shouldn't be beating me (and of course he always did). Since then the Daemonhunters and Grey Knights have always struck me as an army that required both finesse and a quiet determination to play successfuly.

Silent Requiem's Way of the Water Warrior only furthered this view. This article, which has since vanished into the depths of the internet, is THE 40k article upon which all others are based, in my opinion, and puts into words everything my mentor put onto the table: Daemonhunters was the Master's Army - an army that could display tactical skill as being superior to any amount of mathhammer.

Maybe I was full of something, and maybe I wasn't. I collected a few GKs, but never played them under the Daemonhunter Codex.

 

Under Codex: Grey Knights I know that much has changed, but I remain convinced that the 'Master's Army' is still in their somewhere, and I am determined to find it.

Playing Swordwind Eldar before Grey Knights (as well as Chaos Marines and Sisters), I like to think that there is a way to play the game on a purely strategic level to make the whole more powerful than the sum of its parts. It's hard to find, but it is out there, and I also like to think that it is a hell of a lot more statisfying than bashing uber units together in the arms-race of 40k ("my codex is more powerful than yours!") while at the same time not using a 'trick' list or rule exploitation to bring about your enemy's defeat.

That is what I am trying to find with the Grey Knights: the tactical army that offers almost limitless strategic solutions to battlefield situations where planning and playing trump list building and math. As Silent Requiem put it, a list that fits the

player is better than a list that is merely 'strong'.

 

So where am I going with this? Right up to the 1500pt level (my preferred level) with an army of Grey Knights inspired by wanting to find the way to fielding the Master Army.

I think it is a neat idea - maybe you agree, maybe you don't, maybe you think I'm full of something - but this is where I'm going to try it out and see if I succeed or fail as I try to find the Way.

 

The List and the lessons of my first game coming soon.

[Something Wycked]

I'll be following this. Closely. I also play for the strategy, and its fun to find others who do as well.

 

As a side note, Silent Requiem's article hasn't vanished. Check my signature :P

[Brother_Byhlli]

I'm intrigued by your idea and I'll be following this thread closely. I have a similar plan for developing my Blood Angels army. I consider myself a mix of a Fire Warrior and a Water Warrior as per Silent Requiem's definitions. I would like to develop my reactive play, as while the Blood Angels can very successfully overwhelm an opponent with close-combat attacks in the assault phase, having a balanced list that can adjust to any situation it finds itself in would be preferable.

 

 

(Here's a link to Silent Requiem's "lost" article, by the way: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=101214 - I found it by Googling "way of the water warrior"... :P )

[Lady_Canoness]

Thanks gents - it is nice to know that article is not lost. Many players would do well to read it, I think.

 

 

The List

 

Building this list, I had three things in mind:

1) To make a list that was as tactically flexible as possible, meaning that it has the potential in the hands of a Master to meet and overcome any enemy.

2) To remain true to the imagery of the Daemonhunters book in creating a small force of heroic figures with an emphasis on the Knights themselves and not their support elements.

3) To make a list that was fun for everyone involved and inspires the mythical "I want to play against your army because it is always a good game!" from players.

 

On point 1:

This doesn't mean that I want to pack as my psycannons as possible, or have hidden hammers in every unit. Instead I wanted an army that could meet and beat things through careful planning and strategy, so that the metaphorical killing blow was in the hidden dagger instead of the broadside barrage. 'Like putting together an intricate puzzle while the other guy is shooting at you' to say the least :D

On point 2:

I'll come out and say it: I don't like the Storm Raven or the Dreadnight, and I have a thing against rhinoes and razorbacks in an army of knights in shining armour. That being said, I don't think any of those are absolutely necessary for tactical play.

On point 3:

I played against a Dark Eldar player back under the 4th edition who had a fantastic Wytch Cult army that was always a blast to play against. Ever since then, I have strived to emulate his example.

 

The List Itself:

 

HQ:

 

Grandmaster with a psycannon, hammer, brain mines, psychotroke grenades, and rad grenades.

Ever since Gabriel Angelos every Commander needs both white hair and a hammer - fact of life. Aside from that, the Grand Master was a natural choice.

With both psychic communion and the grand strategy, there was no way I could not take this guy. His ability to modify reserves rolls is invaluable (you need your knights on time, after all - not early, and not late) and the grand strategy will help you shape your battle-plan before the game even begins.

As for the weapons, I've found that commanders with powerfist equivalents (despite what common sense tells us) are actually pretty darned good. Yes they can be singled out in combat, but they add serious hurt onto whatever they are engaged with. I learned this from a new player who put a powerfist on his Space Marine Captain - I thought that was just a plain foolish thing to do (why waste the initiative?) until he proceeded to walk through a couple of units all on his own. I'm not saying it is fool proof, but it is a way of helping your commander clear the field. That, and the choice of both brain mines and psychotroke grenades help reduce the effectiveness of hidden fists.

 

Librarian with a Warding Stave, 3 servo skulls, might of titan, sanctuary, shrouding, the summoning, and warp rift.

This guy is pretty important. The servo skulls get the ball rolling early, and set the tone for him as a major supporting character. With so few models on the table, I want to be able to react quickly to whatever happens on the field. Pulling units across the table, denying assaults, making units more resilient to shooting, and being able to deal with the occassional marauding walker all fall into his job description. That being said, he will have 'TARGET' essentially hanging over him as soon as the enemy picks up on what he does, so the warding stave will be invaluable in keeping him alive.

 

ELITE:

 

3 Paladins: one apothocary, one with halberd, one with a sword.

I envision these guys as being a bodyguard for the grandmaster, as well as being able to provide a safe haven for the librarian should danger close in. Feel no Pain on a Grandmaster and Librarian is nothing to sniff at, and should keep both of them fulfilling their vital duties far into the game. So equipped, they are also likely to provide a formidable 'anvil' unit that can recieve a charge without crumpling. Ideally, however, these guys do just what bodyguards are meant to do, and keep their character(s) alive.

 

TROOPS:

 

Strike Squad: 9 men, 8 halberds, 1 sword, all with psybolt ammo.

Why are there nine? I had nine metal Knights and felt no compulsion to change them. With the most shots of all my units, I wanted these guys to pack a punch with the psybolt ammo while I staunchly refused to sacrifice a force weapon and then pay points for a special weapon. They should be moving all the time and shooting all the time, while fending off assault squads with high Initiative attacks. Another reason I like these guys is that they can both Deep Strike and make Deep Striking harder for enemy units to achieve - very good for assassination runs (and then a prompt rescue by the librarian next turn via the Summoning) and providing the back bone for a defence.

 

Terminator Squad: 5 men, 3 halberds, 2 swords, 1 psycannon.

I like Terminators - I will not lie - but other than that they can be a tough nut to crack compared to the average powered armoured bloke. Sure, 5 terminators might last as long as 10 guys in power armour, but sometimes rolling a two and staying alive is all that you really need. Terminators also provide a good platform for a second psycannon. Of all the units in my army, these boys will be as 'troops' as troops can be: their only job is to hold the line where and when it needs to be held. With few other options for them, they will likely shadow the Paladins to provide even more tactical dreadnought nastiness.

 

FAST ATTACK:

 

Interceptors: 5 men, 2 swords, 2 halberds, and one hammer.

Originally I was thinking of using a unit of Purifiers instead of these guys, but then you chaps here at the B&C changed my mind for one simple reason: Interceptors can catch a lot of people off guard with that 30" shunt. That, and they move fast, can Deep Strike, and possess the same disruptive anti-deepstriking power as their brethren. Being a small unit, and seeing as they of all people will be roving far and wide away from the relative safety of a librarian's powers, I wanted these guys to carry enough stuff to look after themselves, though I harbour no illusions about just how fragile this squad is. Someone said on these Boards that interceptors are not assault troops - and rightly so. For me, they are mobile storm bolters who can attack something alone and vulnerable in the late stages of the game, and can contest or snatch the occassional objective. Doubtlessly, I will find new ways to make use of their high mobility and deep strike disruption as my search for the Way goes on.

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

 

Dreadnought: Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher, and a warp stabilization field.

If I can pull the rest of my army around the table, I want to be able to bring my dreadnought along too.

A throw-back to the old days of the 'hellfire dread' I have fond memories of these things stomping around the back of a table edge while popping the odd tank here and there. Is he a reliable tank hunter? No. Then again, he gives increased psychic defence, and can poke holes in light armour while sniping space marines. I take him for 2 reasons: the psyfleman dread has a bad reputation thanks to the internet, and because power armour AP shots can't be overlooked when the entire army boasts of small arms. He is also the closest thing I've got to anti-tank, which means that I'll have to get very creative when it comes to busting big armour - a challenge I will relish.

 

Thoughts about the army in general.

 

I've never been into clone units, and this army is no exception. There is no deathstar, no heavy hitter, and no star who steals the show. All there is, I think, is flexibility.

Every unit aside from the Dreadnought can Deepstrike (and fairly accurately thanks to servo-skulls). Every unit can be whipped around the board thanks to the Librarian's summoning. Every unit has some way of watching the back of his brothers.

Do I expect this army to be unbeatable? No, I do not, though I do think that I can learn with this army and work out the finer points along the way to making a true Master's List.

[Archon_77]

I will be watching this closely as well, as I do any of your threads Cannoness, both because I dig your style and ALSO believe that the Way is not dead for GK's.

 

I would however repeat some of my earlier thoughts about the NDK, specifically that they are CRAZY flexible. They do everything that your interceptors do for the same reasons, but they can also be kitted out for close combat or mid range shooting with equal effectiveness. Addtionally I believe one can allievate some of the problem your libby has with that target on his back, simply because The NDK too MUST be dealt with, and bigger = scarier I find psychologically in most cases. I think of mine as a giant paladin, with his sword and psycannon. Is there a reason you do not like them? I'll admit they are goofy looking, but some creative modding fixed that problem for me in a hurry.

[The Holy Heretic]

I think, you're spending and relying too much on your HQs. What will you do, when your opponents avoid them or tie them up with cheap fodder. They're just not fast enough or shooty enough to react to a Mobile opponent :D

 

Add to that. If your GM is hanging with the libby and the paladins, why does he sport a hammer? You already have the potential for 3 hammerhands and 1 Might of Titan, he'd do much better with being able to take advantage of his initiative - and he really should have Blind grenades to offer some extra defense to the squad ;)

[yperihitikos]

The games with this army will be as fun as every Dawn of War II LAN game for both players. The army seems like a noob battleforce army. I can see why you want a plain army. I can't see why you want to do it with GKs.

[the jeske]

I think others were not prices enough . yes the list does not spam and yes it does not use some of the realy good stuff[unstun-lockable razors, rifle man etc]. it is also a little in between a death start [2xHQ paladins etc] and a normal gk list [but without transports]. While some armies may get away with not spaming [and GK are surly one of those dex that can do it ] , trying to fit 2 different ways of game play within 1500 pts will not work .

 

For example Interceptors are used they should always work in a tandem with a NDK [or another interceptor unit, but here we run in to the non spaming problem]. If paladins used [without or without draigo] then bigger units are needed .3 dudes is realy to small [yes even with 2 HQs and FnP] . But what does that mean for the list ? Well something has to be cut .

 

For example the dread could be replaced with a NDK and terminators for more paladins[or paladins for more terminators . anything but not a mix of those two units] .

 

 

I know that we are working on an army which already exists , but psycanons should realy be used in every slot that can take them . Not using them is like taking a 10 man tactical , but not taking the weapons for them .

[number6]

This is an interesting project, Lady Canoness! :tu: Best of luck on your travels.

 

After reading your proposed army list, I do feel compelled to echo a few of the criticisms that have been leveled at it.

 

* I am not sure why you insist upon avoiding psycannons. They are the fluffiest of fluffy GK weapons, and always have been. Besides, they only increase both your anti-infantry and anti-armour potential. There is, quite simply, no downside at all to taking them. (A marked improvement over the sacrifices that always had to be made when taking psycannons on power-armored GKs in the old DH codex.) Since every GK unit can carry at least one psycannon, you should do that! I promise you, it will pay dividends. And it shouldn't make you feel "dirty" or "unoriginal" ... or whatever it is you're trying to avoid by deliberately not using them. GW deliberately gave us the psycannon as a swiss-army-knife of a tool to make up for the fact that the codex wouldn't contain most of the usual Imperial wargear that all other Imperial armies get. Take them!

 

* I do think it is wasteful to put the hammer on your GM for all the reasons you note. Since you intend him to walk around with a bodyguard, you should instead give the bodyguard 1 or 2 (or more?) hammers so you don't lose any combat capabilities but DO gain the advantages of having high-inititative force weapon attacks. Furthermore, keeping the NF sword instead of any other weapon means your GM will have a 3+ invul save in close combat instead of a 4+ save. Thus, not taking the hammer increases both his deadliness and his survivability. Finally, as already noted, you will have no fewer than 3 opportunities to cast hammerhand plus an opportunity to cast Might of Titan. Your GM will not be hurting for super-strength just because he's not toting a hammer! :)

 

* On the subject of both psycannons and the kit for your GM, I would suggest that you do one of the following for your HQ/Paladin "deathstar". (And I use the term deliberately, for though your stated aim is to avoid creating any such units, a unit composed of GM + Libby + Apothecaried Paladins is, without question, a deathstar!) If you're not going to find the points to get to 5 paladins and the ability to get a psycannon on the unit for cheap -- and I would definitely recommend doing that both for additional protection and additional offense -- then instead of upgrading the GM's melee weapon you should trade out the storm bolter for a psycannon. Remember: every unit should take a psycannon! ;)

 

* If it were me, I'd not take the apothecary at all, especially on such a small unit, potentially only 4 models strong. On big units: yes! On teensy units, no. It's incredibly inefficient. You can get an additional 1.5 paladins for the cost of the apothecary upgrade for more offense and more wounds for defense.

 

* I agree with the jeske that a single minimal unit of interceptors doesn't fit with your army. I do think a footslogging army that isn't 100% terminators must include fast disruption units to make up for the built-in lack of mobility and resilience, so I like that you want to use them. But you should take at least a 2nd such unit. Best would be 2 10-man units that you can potentially affect with grand strategy and combat squad! Otherwise, it's a flying dreadknight for you, and you don't seem to like them! :tu:

 

* Your lone dreadnought is definitely not enough for anti-armour purposes. I think you underestimate the "challenge" that even moderately, only semi-mechanized opponents will present to your army. Even adding on the 3 more psycannons that I earlier said should be included in just your existing units (not even accounting for other alterations to the list you might make) wouldn't be enough. You definitely need more. 1500 pts is a decent-sized game, and one and only one unit with a (semi-)reliable capability to damage armour is not going to provide you with a Master's army. It will provide you with a losing army. :( Not only are you limited in your own capabilties, but enemies have a clear and obvious -- singular -- target for their own anti-armour firepower. One AV 12 walker is simply not going to last under any kind of realistic match-up.

 

Unlike with your resistance to psycannons, I do at least empathize with your resistance to the psyfleman dreadnought. :lol: They are common. Of course, the reason for that is that they fulfill the role of long-range, high-strength, anti-armour firepower. Quite literally, there is no other GK unit in the codex that fulfills that role. That's why they're common, especially for pure GK army lists. So if you deliberately choose to avoid them, it is incumbent upon you to find multiple ways to account for that tactical shortcoming in your own army. Increasing the psycannon count is the first order of business.

 

Another way to help you out would be to increase the hammer count in your army; as with psycannons, putting one in every unit increases the tactical flexibility of your army. (Right now, virtually every unit is only capable of tackling infantry, which is tactically limiting. My idea of a "Master's" army is one in which every unit can do whatever task you need of it, for this game, in this turn. Don't limit your tactical options!) Regarding Hammers: GKs are part of the Ordo "Malleus", are they not? ;)

 

You could also take a 2nd "hellfire" dread, or perhaps a stock venerable dread. (I.e., one with a multi-melta.) Footslogging these guys does work. Best in multiples, but even one is better than nothing, especially if you take other steps to help out your anti-AV capabilities throughout the entire list.

 

EDIT: I missed one other point I meant to make. If there is any way you can use your old metal PAGKs as Purifiers, do so. You do get a lot more for just 1 pt more per model if you're going to be taking halberds virtually everywhere, as the metal models will indeed force you to do. Note that I am NOT recommending you don't use them! It won't be the end of the world if they remain Strikers. :lol: I just think that, overall, you will see more bang for your buck using the old metals as Purifiers rather than Strikers.

[Archon_77]

Knew it wouldn't be long till you showed up number6 :lol:. Cannoness, I'd like to stress that we are BEHIND you in this ^_^ I know that some of our critiques have you radically changing up your list, and some aren't worded the epitomy of kindly, but I think its important to stress that us old farts on the board WANT YOU TO SUCCEED in this.

[Lady_Canoness]

Thank you gents. Advice is always appreciated, though not always heeded, when given. Yes, I am sure this army could look a lot better, though the only changes I am going to move on will be those brought about through slogging through the mire of battle.

 

I thank you again, but I want to learn the Way with the Knights the hard way.

 

That being said, I played my first game with this list at my local club, and I would like to share it with you.

 

 

Lessons from the First Game

 

My first game was against Orks under the command of an experienced and (in my opinion) very competant player. I've played his Orks numerous times before with Chaos Marines, Sisters, and Eldar, and I can say that each one was a slog. His approach is very much 'less toyz, more boyz' and he did just that. Both our lists were made prior to the match-up being declared, so we had no idea who or what we would be facing. He had never played against Grey Knights before (I guess they are just rare around here) and I'd never played with them before, so we figured that we'd be on roughly equal footing.

 

Straying from his usual Kan-wall, my opponent's list looked something like this:

HQ: Big Mek KFF

Elite: 2 x 5 Lootas

Elite: Grottsnick and 7 Kommandoes

Troops: 30 Sluggas, 2 rokkits, Nob with a Power Klaw

Troops: 30 Sluggas, Nob with a power Klaw

Troops: 30 Shootas, 3 Big Shootas, Nob with a Power Klaw

Troops: 30 shootas, 3 Big Shootas, Nob with a Power Klaw

Troops: 29 Grots

Fast Attack: Deffkopta

 

The Mission

Going for theme, as well as S&G, we opted to roll up a daemon world as can be found in WD312, and say that the Knights were seeking out a great evil when a tide of greenskins was brought forth by the Beast to get in their way.

The daemon world was a Mutatosphere (IIRC) which meant that any unit wishing to shoot would have to test its LD, and - if it failed - would be forced to shoot a unit (friend or foe) of the enemy's choosing. The effects of terrain - typically being ultra dangerous - can be found in WD312. We also rolled up 7 Daemonic entities that would shift around the table.

The mission itself was a pitched battle with 5 objectives (1 in the centre of the board, 1 on the left, and 3 on the right.)

 

Pre-Battle

I am outnumbered by about 5 to 1 in this battle, and I know from experience that a single mob of boyz can often-times overwhelm even dedicated close-combat troops. Obviously, melee is something I would want to avoid like death itself. Big mobs are also ludicrously difficult to break by shooting, and, though the orks would be avoiding the terrain due to a sorts of daemonic nastiness, the KFF as well as their sheer numbers would make them ultra hard to beat. However, I knew that with that many boyz meant that it would be difficult for my opponent to bring all of his numbers to bear, and that a blob was just that - a blob.

Rolling for the Grand Strategy, I chose to make both the Interceptors and the Paladins scoring.

 

DeploymentThree servo skulls went down first - 1 on the left side of the table, and two on the right, after which the orks won the right of first deployment and deployed in a MASSIVE wall that covered almost the entirety of his deployment with the Lootas taking up flanking positions for the best fire-lanes (though it should be noted that the orks avoided the water for a very good reason...)

I then deployed my Dreadnought, Grand Master, and his Paladins to the extreme left of the field. Everthing else was in reserve to be entering via Deep Strike. We then deployed the daemonic entities markers (3 encircling my Knights, 1 amidst his orks, and 3 more on the right side of the table.)

I did not sieze the initiative, and the orks went first.

 

Turn 1

The orks surged forward in a massive rolling wave, though some of the sluggas drew the attention of a nearby daemonic wisp and two were torn assunder in bloody chunks. The lootas then tried to target the Dreadnought opposite them, but were decieved and instead gunned down two nearby shootas befoe they could stop themselves.

Across the windswept field, the dreadnought fell prey to three insubstantial daemons who tore at his amroured form but achieved little. In response to the orks, the dreadnought then blasted a loota to little pieces despite his poor accuracy.

 

Objectives: 1 held by the lootas on the right side of the field.

 

Turn 2

The orks continued foward - the bulk of the boyz swining in to encircle the knights while simultaneously being numerous enough to move against all five objectives. Daemons struck again, but casualties were like drops in a sea of green. The lootas fired again agains the dreadnought, and though they hit there was no damage. Rokkits were then fired by the encroaching sluggas, but both rang harmlessly off the dreadnought's armour.

The Grandmaster then used psychic communion to call the librarian and the terminators to the field - both teleporting near a servo skull on right side of the table with reduced scatter. The librarian then opened the warp and guided the Grandmaster and his body guard safely over to the left side of the table, joining the newly arrived reinforcements. The librarian then tried to bring the dreadnought as well, but failed his psychic test. Unperturbed though now alone, the dreadnought tried to move back from the approaching sea of orks, though this time the daemons set upon him with terrible fury and tore his armoured chasis to shreds (blood fountain, which normally slays a model on 2+, we said would inflict a penetrating hit on a 2+ when used against a vehicle).

The surviving knights, now all on the left, gunned down several of the nearby grots, as well as the deffkopta.

 

Objectives: 1 held by lootas on the right, 1 held by sluggas on the left. Centre objective threatened by Shootas. Left-side objective threatened by Knights.

 

Turn 3

Not wanting to be outmanoeuvred by the shiny space marines, Grottsnick and his kommandoes appear behind the terminators, while both the grots and a nearby mob of sluggas line up a charge even though more daemonic nastiness claws at them and drags down one or two orks at a time. The lootas on the left - now having targets - want to shoot, but end up shooting more shootas instead. The shootas then fire on the paladins, causing 12 wounds, though none get through. The orks then declare a WAAAGH! and surge even closer to the Knights - getting dangerously close, but, just as they are about to charge, the Librarian pulls up sanctuary to protect his brethren. Grottsnick and his Kommandoes get through - charging the terminators though losing 2 of their number. The grotts charge the librarian, once again losing 2 of their number. The sluggas try to charge the paladins, but fail and lose 5 of their number.

In the assault, the terminators defeat Grottsnick and his kommandoes and send them running, though one terminator is lost in return. The librarian squashes a single grot for no wounds in return, and the grots promptly blow their leadership twice, and scamper away in fear.

The next turn, the knights advance on the fleeing enemy while the librarian joins the paladins and the grandmaster cautions his brothers still in reserve to not enter the fray just yet. In the shooting phase, all the available knights open fire on the sluggas before them. Warp Rift, Holocaust, and a lot of bolt shots make quick work of the tightly packed orks without cover and just manage to finish them off to the very last.

 

Objectives: 3 are now held by the orks - none by the Knights.

 

 

Turn 4

Angered by their losses, the orks ignore the daemons around them and move to once again encirlc the knights, though the greenskins on the left are hopelessly far from the few knights on the right. The shootas line up more dakka against the paladins, but 16 wounds are shrugged off. The lootas target the terminators, but that too has no effect.

In return the Strike Squad arrives, though a bad scatter sees them very close to the table edge, while the interceptors suffer a mishap and are delayed. No matter, the paladins try to target the shootas, though their minds are betrayed by daemons and they end up shooting the terminators instead - killing one of their brothers, while the strike squad desperately runs to catch up.

 

Objectives: 3 are held by the orks - 1 by the knights.

 

Turn 5The orks are completely beside themselves with the sheer resilience or the knights, but - in true orky fashion - deside to risk it all in close quarters. The Shootas fire again - with no results to show for it - then line up a charge against the paladins, though even with their power claw (which tried to snapp the hated librarian in two) the orks suffer casualties to Sanctuary and then even more casualties to the knights while causing no lasting damage in return. With still over 12 models in the squad, however, the shootas hold firm.

The Interceptors then finally arrive and sieze the objective held by the lootas - brushing them off the face of the planet in a hail of storm bolter fire. With the strikes still nowhere close enough to aid in the battle, the terminators step up and aid the paladins - both forces combining to finish off the shootas before them, while the terminators consolidate back to the objective they previously held, while the paladins move within 6 inches of another.

 

The die is then case, turns up a 1, and the game ends on turn 5. The result being a draw with the orks possessing 2 objectives while the knights possess 2 as well.

 

Lessons

 

Not letting this game go to my head, I think that I know now that the Knights need to stay very close together and fight only a tiny fraction of the enemy at a time to succeed. With so many orks on the field, that was fairly easy to accomplish, since I could concentrate my forces in a small area where the orks could not bring their numbers to bear. Also, it seems to me that not deploying the softer elements of my army in the beginning could be a benefit, for if the terminator armoured troops can hold their ground the power armoured units can be saved for later in the game.

Will this game be definative of things to come? Probably not. The sea of green is not something usually seen, and plays differently than most other armies. However, the knights handled with one casualty what will usually cost my other armies much, much more. Still no test against enemy armour - for that I will likely have to wait.

 

So much more left to be learned on the Way...

[the jeske]

brave man to play tide orcs against a GK army , specialy not knowing the army list before . A puri build or anything using 2-3 units of them would decimate him without even being funny .

[Archon_77]

Thats why I think purifires belong in ALL GK lists, specifically for that anti infantry ability, especially in a 'I can handle anything' water list.

[Lady_Canoness]

For the time being, I must confess that I have reservations regarding Purifiers in my army. Due to what I think are fairly limited deployment options compared to other Grey Knight units - not to mention their dread reputation would have them painted as a target, which is something I'd like to avoid for a 24-point marine. Having these chaps able to Deep Strike would likely put my mind at ease.

 

More than likely, I think I'd be tempted to use them as a psycannon platform and keep their assault potential on the backburner.

[Something Wycked]

If all you want is a nice set of Psycannons, why not look into Purgators instead of Purifiers? You haven't filled out your Heavy choices, and Purgators will get you those Psycannons more cheaply- 5 Purgators, 4 Psycannons and a Rhino is 220 points. Granted they're not any more mobile than Purifiers, but... cost efficiency!

[Inquisitor =D=]

If all you want is a nice set of Psycannons, why not look into Purgators instead of Purifiers? You haven't filled out your Heavy choices, and Purgators will get you those Psycannons more cheaply- 5 Purgators, 4 Psycannons and a Rhino is 220 points. Granted they're not any more mobile than Purifiers, but... cost efficiency!

 

Not to mention Astral Aim. Certainly has its uses.

 

Lady-Canoness, I admire your dedication to figuring it out. I myself am in the process of revitalizing the 'Ol Water Warrior Raider list. Comically enough I can fit much more in thanks to decreased unit prices. Just working out the kinks and all, but that's a topic for another thread.

 

I'll be keeping my eye on this thread. ;)

 

=]D[=

[Archon_77]

Very true cannoness, but I find that if I rhino them (or better yet Raider them) they do a great job wiping objectives and taking out enemy deathstars/HQ's. I have also had limited success using them defensively to protect my weaker scoring units on objectives or as counters to Air opponents trying to tie me up late in my own zones. This past saturday I footslogged a unit of five in my own zone against nids and orcs in trucks (Big game), knowing that my opponent would come to me with only one objective in capture and control. Deepstruck Trigon died first as he tried to shoot/assualt me off my objective and Orcs died 2 turns later when trying to contest (10 Nobs). More testing is needed, but I'm starting to think of them as a good watchdog/firefighting unit.

 

Purifiers (literally) scream "fire unit" but they can be used quite effectively this way I have found.

[Lady_Canoness]

Purgators might just fit the bill, I think.

 

I've just had my second game (I'll write that up when I get the time) but it still didn't point me in any once direction for future units. Time and play against people more accustomed to Grey Knight special rules should fix this with time.

[Lady_Canoness]

Lessons of the Second Game

 

My second game was against a good friend and his Infantry Guard. He's been playing for about 8 months now and has a good grasp of how to play his army, and what its limitations are. I have played his Guard numerous times before with other lists (the Chaos Marines having the most success against him by far) and I know that he relies on the old-school 'barrage-o'death' followed up by massed lasguns and an eventual infantry charge with a blob of guardsmen.

 

The Mission:

We went for the old-school Terminate the Daemonvessel from the Daemonhunters book with the Guard as the defender harbouring the daemon inside a Lord Commissar. We played on an 'outskirts' themed board with ruins on one edge while the rest of the board was more or less semi-dense forests with old bits of ruins popping up here and there. As per mission rules, the Guard would deploy in the centre with the Daemon's personal bodyguard (2 troops, 1 heavy, and the daemon vessel appearing at the start of his first turn), while the grey knights moved on from whatever board edge they so chose.

 

My list for this game was unchanged from game one, while his looked something like this:

 

Lord Commissar (possessed by a winged greater daemon of Khorne)

Primaris Psyker (using a model for an old daemonvessel he'd just painted up for the game)

10 Storm Troopers: 2 meltaguns.

2 Heavy sentinels with multilasers.

2 Infantry platoons with full command and 30 men in each (and attached commissars)

1 Leman Russ

1 Leman Russ Executioner (the plasma cannon death tank)

 

Pre-game thoughts:

My friend's Guard have some well-earned respect from my armies because they are, without exception, dirty, dirty fighters who cling on to the bitter end. Fighting the Guard is like fighting the tide: heavy crashing waves of firepower (I was just thankful he opted not to bring his trio of basilisks along for the game), and a swell of infantry with lasguns that are quite difficult to outmanoeuvre or wrongfoot who are almost always hugging cover and hiding power weapons within their midst. Thanks to the mission, he also had sustained attack on all his troops (so those 30 man blobs would recycle when destroyed). For all their numbers, however, I know from experience that terminator armour is all but immune to lasgun fire, and that the tanks aren't as lethal as they seem due to cover and scatter. My plan from the get-go was to find out where the daemonhost would be hiding, and hit that spot like an avalanche of silver blades. With that in mind, I opted to use the Grand Strategy to allow my Strike Squad and Interceptors to reroll 1s to wound for the duration of the game.

 

The Game:

Instead of going turn by turn (which would be very time consuming) I'll give an overview of the tactics and critical occurences over the course of play.

 

The Guard:

The Guard started with the foundation of both Infantry blobs firmly set in the middle of the table, and the Lord Commissar prompty joined one of these once he was revealed after my first turn. He and his 30+ man bodyguard then went on to spend the duration of the game running away from my Knights and throwing absolutely everything else in the army in my way to slow me down with (for the most part) recycling speed bumps. Both Leman fell with only ever getting one shot off a piece (thanks to some stellar shooting by my dreadnought) and accounted for 1 wounded paladin between the two. The storm troopers got the jump on the Strikes and killed 4 prior to being swiftly annihilated in the ensuing assault.

The game went to the bottom of turn six at which point the Interceptors finally caught up with the Lord Commissar and his bodyguard, and stuck a force halberd in him to snatch a victory from defeat at the last possible moment.

 

The Knights:

I tried the same deployment and overall strategy that had worked for me against the orks: Paladins and Grandmaster start on the board with the dread, the Librarian and Terminators and the Strikes then deepstrike on the flank closest to the Commissar's guard, and, once the Grand Master and his boys are summoned over, they all try to blow the crap out of the blob in the woods. It didn't work. Minimal casualties meant that the bulk of my forces were now committed in a bitter fight against waves of guard that recycle while the Lord Commissar and his blob run in the other direction. I took very few casualties, however (other than the occassional power armoured bloke) and killed my way through a lot of guardsmen. I had given the game up for lost at that point as I had only the interceptors (arriving on turn 4) and the Dreadnought to try and slow down the somewhat depleted bodyguard blob. Eventually they got the job done, but it did not feel that much like a tactical victory as 5 Interceptors weren't much more than a hail marry when it came to stopping around 20 guardsmen in cover.

 

Lessons learned:

My goodness, power armoured knights drop SO much faster than terminators - in the end, 8 power armoured knights fell compared to 1 terminator - so with that in mind I think the best course of action is to keep the power armoured units off the board until the right time. Strikes and Interceptors do not seem like line troops in this army, and would be better spent Deep Striking where they are needed instead of acting as reinforcements to a terminator advance. The terminators and Paladins once again make a fine team when teamed up with a librarian and Grand Master. The units complement each other well, and split fire between them (though this may change once my opponents have more experience fighting grey knights.) The Apothecary on the paladins is also invaluable to me - regardless of squad size. Thanks to him, not a single paladin has fallen so far, where as I would have lost most of them by now if it were not for feel no pain.

As Thade mentioned in another thread, however, I do see myself relying on psychic powers, and I would have to greatly adapt my strategy should there be a deployment of formidable psychic defences.

As for the list itself, well, I am very pleased with the terminators, the characters, and the paladins, though so far I don't have enough experience using the power armour squads to wonder as to whether or not they belong in the army. The Strikers have been, as of yet, only 'meh' while the Interceptors feel like they need more of an opportunity to spread their wings.

 

As ever, there is always much to be learned on the Way...

[Lady_Canoness]

Lessons of the Third Game

 

Opponent: vanilla Space Marines.

 

Space Marines have always been the benchmark for me when it comes to army performance - if you can handle space marines, then you've got an okay combination for handling other things out there. My opponent was still a relatively new player (in the hobby for about a year now) and had (unfortunately) racked up a pretty poor track record with his Marines at the shop I play at. That being said, he has learned from his many numerous mistakes, and is slowly getting a handle on what list works for him.

 

His list looked something like this:

 

Librarian w. jump pack, Gate, and Smite.

5 Sternguard (melta, plasma, and 2 combi-flamers) mounted in an assault cannon razorback.

10 man tactical squad w. flamer mounted in a rhino.

10 man tactical squad w. melta and multimelta (combat squaded) half mounted in a lascannon razorback

10 man assault squad w. stormshield and thunderhammer, flamer, and two plasma pistols.

10 man devestator squad w. 2 missile launchers and 2 heavy bolters.

 

The mission we played was the All Around Defence space marine mission from the battle mission book.

The table was set up a-la desolate wasteland with a single farmstead in the middle with a couple outbuildings and surrounding fences and low walls. The rest of the table was occupied by rocky outcroppings, a few patches of rough ground, and a stream on one side.

 

Pre-mission thoughts:

The space marines get to sit in the farmhold with all their forces this game while I can either deploy or move on from any board edge from reserve (though my heavy and HQ have to start in reserve), meaning that I couldn't expect a strong rush early on - though the Marines could easily rush me if I deployed poorly. It also meant that my tried method of using my GM to bring my units in when I wanted them would not work, and that I would be forced to try something different. For the Grand Strategy, I chose to make the Interceptors scoring.

 

Deployment:

Per mission rules, the Space Marines deployed all of their units in or around the farmstead with the armoured vehicles providing an 'outer shell' of sorts, and blocking any wide open lines of sight. My servo skulls were placed in three different locations surrounding the farmhold near the table edges. My Interceptors were the only unit I deployed and were hunkered down out of site behind a rocky outrcropping on the far left of the table.

 

The Game:

The first turn saw me do jack all as I had only my interceptors on the board, while the space marines moved with the assault marines (and attached librarian) and the razor back to eliminate my servoskulls on the left side of the board.

The second turn was equally slow as my dreadnought walked on the left-side board edge near the Interceptors and promptly immobilized the assault cannon razorback that was nearest to him (about 18" away). The Lascannon razorback as well as the assault cannons returned fire, but achieved nothing.

The third turn was still slow as the Strike Squad made an appearance and deep-struck behind cover near the Interceptors (about 10" away) and used their run move to make sure that neither the razorbacks nor the devestators could draw a clear line of sight to them. My dreadnought then proceeded to destroy the lascannon razorback. The assault marines were still two turns away from the Strike Squad, so the Librarian opted to use the Gate to get closer (I had forgot about Warp Quake in my turn) and gunned down 2 of the Strike Squad after causing 6 wounds in total.

The fourth turn finally saw my Terminator forces arrive as the GM and his Paladins walked on the northern table edge into a position to assault the assault squad and the librarian, while my Librarian and the attached terminator squad teleported in near the wrecked lasback behind the farmhold. In the ensuing assault, the GM, Paladins, strikes, and interceptors slaughtered the assault marines to the last man in return for no losses, while the Librarian and his terminators failed to make any significant impact on the opposite flank (and were now staring down the bulk of the marine forces.) The space marines then turned all guns on the terminators and killed 2.

The fifth turn then started with my summoning the GM and his paladins over to the Librarian, though a 11" scatter saw them way off the mark and out of position until next turn. The Interceptors then shunted right into the farmhold on top of the objective (which had been conveniently left open when the marines responded to the terminators' arrival on their flank), while the Terminators moved in to assault the tac squad inside the farmhold, and all other available guns (Strikes, Interceptors, and Paladins) turned on the Devestators, killing 3. The Dreadnought then blew up the assault cannon razorback, and the sternguard vets had to get out. The assault face saw Librarian and his terminators massacre a combat-squad of tacticals and massacre into the heart of the farmstead - needless to say, the following shooting phase saw them completely wiped out thanks to a nice handful of 1s being rolled. Fortunately, the Interceptors were unharmed, though my dreadnought was stunned by the sternguard. The die was cast, and the game continued into turn six.

Turn six saw the Paladins reach the outskirts of the farmstead, while the dreadnought shook off his being stunned and zorted a sterguard vet. The Strikes continued to pour fire onto the devestators - killing all but the heavy weapons - while the Interceptors shot and charged a full tactical squad which had disembarked from its rhino to contest the objective - this fight would ultimately rest in a stalemate as the Marines would not break. The Paladins then finished off a tactical combat squad and entered the farmstead, while the sternguard finally blew my dreadnought to bits.

 

The result was therefore a tie: the interceptors and tactical marines were still locked in combat around the objective and made it contested.

 

Lessons Learned:

Relying on unmodified reserves rolls sucks.

Other than that, it is safe to say that GK gain nothing by getting stuck in before they are ready to do so, even if that means biding your time for half the game. Deep Strike and the Summoning gives the army enough of an ability to redeploy that taking a stationary objective (even if in enemy hands) won't be impossible. Next time I think I will try sticking the Librarian with the Paladins, however, while the Grand Master rides with the Terminators - at least if I were to play a similar mission a second time. The Marines inflicted more casualties that either the Orks or the Guard, so quality hurts Knights more than quantity even though assaults were always in my favour.