Daemon Primarchs.

[Brother Ambroz]

Read Aurelian, I think you'll reevaluate your perception of Lorgar afterwards.

 

 

Why do you taunt me so??? Still waiting on a copy....

[Bulwyf]

I'm still waiting for GW to put out in fluff that Curze after death became a daemon primarch whose powered by fear and terror. It would completely fit his persona and with how powerful a primarch was in terms of the warp it would make sense.

[Watch Commander Danek]

What a horrendous idea that would totally undermine the reason behind the Haunter's death. I'll quit this game and never come back if they made such a Wardian fluff retcon.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I'd like to see a daemon prince belonging to malal................ *cough*11th primarch*cough*

[Bulwyf]

What a horrendous idea that would totally undermine the reason behind the Haunter's death. I'll quit this game and never come back if they made such a Wardian fluff retcon.

 

Why is such a "horrendous" idea? What do you think happened to Curze after he died? A Primarch was a walking demi god in the flesh. Who knows how much powerful they would be in the Warp? He owed no allegiance to any god so it is entirely possible he's still in the Warp. Considering how much he dedicated himself to fear and terror it isn't much of a stretch to imagine his Warp essence would thrive and feed on those emotions. Going by the Liber Chaotica it is actually the most probable result of what happened to Curze after death.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

What a horrendous idea that would totally undermine the reason behind the Haunter's death. I'll quit this game and never come back if they made such a Wardian fluff retcon.

 

Why is such a "horrendous" idea? What do you think happened to Curze after he died? A Primarch was a walking demi god in the flesh. Who knows how much powerful they would be in the Warp? He owed no allegiance to any god so it is entirely possible he's still in the Warp. Considering how much he dedicated himself to fear and terror it isn't much of a stretch to imagine his Warp essence would thrive and feed on those emotions. Going by the Liber Chaotica it is actually the most probable result of what happened to Curze after death.

 

Because Curze wanted to die. To rob him of that robs him of his vindication, which does the character and the Legion a huge disservice. It would be an appalling outcome and reduce one of the most intriguing Primarchs into a cheap and overused movie villain trope.

[Castiel]

What a horrendous idea that would totally undermine the reason behind the Haunter's death. I'll quit this game and never come back if they made such a Wardian fluff retcon.

 

Why is such a "horrendous" idea? What do you think happened to Curze after he died? A Primarch was a walking demi god in the flesh. Who knows how much powerful they would be in the Warp? He owed no allegiance to any god so it is entirely possible he's still in the Warp. Considering how much he dedicated himself to fear and terror it isn't much of a stretch to imagine his Warp essence would thrive and feed on those emotions. Going by the Liber Chaotica it is actually the most probable result of what happened to Curze after death.

 

Because Curze wanted to die. To rob him of that robs him of his vindication, which does the character and the Legion a huge disservice. It would be an appalling outcome and reduce one of the most intriguing Primarchs into a cheap and overused movie villain trope.

 

^ This. It would just be a travesty, and it would rob Curze of all respectability as a character.

[Bulwyf]

What a horrendous idea that would totally undermine the reason behind the Haunter's death. I'll quit this game and never come back if they made such a Wardian fluff retcon.

 

Why is such a "horrendous" idea? What do you think happened to Curze after he died? A Primarch was a walking demi god in the flesh. Who knows how much powerful they would be in the Warp? He owed no allegiance to any god so it is entirely possible he's still in the Warp. Considering how much he dedicated himself to fear and terror it isn't much of a stretch to imagine his Warp essence would thrive and feed on those emotions. Going by the Liber Chaotica it is actually the most probable result of what happened to Curze after death.

 

Because Curze wanted to die. To rob him of that robs him of his vindication, which does the character and the Legion a huge disservice. It would be an appalling outcome and reduce one of the most intriguing Primarchs into a cheap and overused movie villain trope.

 

I know Curze wanted to die to prove to his father that he was right. That does not have a jot to do with what happened to him AFTER he died. Normal people don't just "die" and their souls are obliterated. Curze didn't jump in the Greek underworld river of oblivion after all. He simply died. His soul still entered into the warp. His being suicidal to prove a point to his father does not negate how the warp works or what impact a being as insanely powerful as a Primarch suddenly entering into the warp would cause.

 

This is "grim, dark" 40k here. No one gets what they want. Brutal irony or poetic justice runs rampant. I think it would be deliciously ironic that Curze in death became a minor god in the warp that fed off fear and terror. He wanted oblivion but instead was made into a god of fear and terror. Imagine the fun ADB could have if the Night Lords found out Curze was still alive in the warp in that sense. Would they worship him or try to bring worlds into worship of him? Sounds like bags o' fun to me.

[Lay]

What a horrendous idea that would totally undermine the reason behind the Haunter's death. I'll quit this game and never come back if they made such a Wardian fluff retcon.

"The Nighthauntor is a shadowy daemon of vengeance who descends from the heavens only in times of the Night Lords' greatest need. To most he is a myth, but those few who have seen him cut a bloody path through the Night Lords' enemies and blaze across the battlefield like a hot and angry wind know different."

^_^

[Bulwyf]

What a horrendous idea that would totally undermine the reason behind the Haunter's death. I'll quit this game and never come back if they made such a Wardian fluff retcon.

"The Nighthauntor is a shadowy daemon of vengeance who descends from the heavens only in times of the Night Lords' greatest need. To most he is a myth, but those few who have seen him cut a bloody path through the Night Lords' enemies and blaze across the battlefield like a hot and angry wind know different."

^_^

 

Great quote, where did you find that?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

What a horrendous idea that would totally undermine the reason behind the Haunter's death. I'll quit this game and never come back if they made such a Wardian fluff retcon.

"The Nighthauntor is a shadowy daemon of vengeance who descends from the heavens only in times of the Night Lords' greatest need. To most he is a myth, but those few who have seen him cut a bloody path through the Night Lords' enemies and blaze across the battlefield like a hot and angry wind know different."

^_^

 

Great quote, where did you find that?

 

He made it up.

 

His soul still entered into the warp. His being suicidal to prove a point to his father does not negate how the warp works or what impact a being as insanely powerful as a Primarch suddenly entering into the warp would cause.

 

Except the Warp doesn't work that way. While all souls (except Horus) may go to it in death, not every soul is brought back as a Daemon. . .in fact, the vast majority aren't. It actually takes a Chaos god to bother to make that happen, and since Curze worked for none of them it's a good bet none bothered to. The Warp itself doesn't do anything without an active intelligence behind it to make it do something, and since not a one wanted Curze. . . Between Liber Chaotica (which is hardly canon) and the descriptions given in Codex: Chaos Daemons (which is), when you die in the Materium you're basically psychic energy ramen noodles to be shredded and absorbed unless you have a patron that fancies you enough to expend the energy and effort to rebuild you into their new pet. Grimdark as it may be to bring the Haunter back, it's still a sign of weak writing to go down that road when all evidence and past fluff suggest such a thing would be functionally improbable.

[Lay]

Great quote, where did you find that?

He made it up.

Based it on the unit description of the Sanguinor to be exact.

 

Likewise, if they decide to make Alpharius a daemon primarch, expect him to sneak up on the Golden Throne and carve Omegon's name into the Emperor's heart.

[TheDarkApostle]

1. The Liber Chaotica is VERY, VERY much canon thank you very much.

 

2. I have lost count of how many times I've said this over the years but here it goes again: Just because the big 4 are the BIG 4 does not mean that they exclusivity rule ALL of the empyrean. Hell, there are even regions within the Chaos Wastelands that they don't rule, as stated in the Daemons Codex.

 

And even still, there's also Gork and Mork who rule a pretty big section of the Warp, as well as the Eldar Gods and other what not have at you that you can think of.

 

TDA

[Bulwyf]

What a horrendous idea that would totally undermine the reason behind the Haunter's death. I'll quit this game and never come back if they made such a Wardian fluff retcon.

"The Nighthauntor is a shadowy daemon of vengeance who descends from the heavens only in times of the Night Lords' greatest need. To most he is a myth, but those few who have seen him cut a bloody path through the Night Lords' enemies and blaze across the battlefield like a hot and angry wind know different."

;)

 

Great quote, where did you find that?

 

He made it up.

 

His soul still entered into the warp. His being suicidal to prove a point to his father does not negate how the warp works or what impact a being as insanely powerful as a Primarch suddenly entering into the warp would cause.

 

Except the Warp doesn't work that way. While all souls (except Horus) may go to it in death, not every soul is brought back as a Daemon. . .in fact, the vast majority aren't. It actually takes a Chaos god to bother to make that happen, and since Curze worked for none of them it's a good bet none bothered to. The Warp itself doesn't do anything without an active intelligence behind it to make it do something, and since not a one wanted Curze. . . Between Liber Chaotica (which is hardly canon) and the descriptions given in Codex: Chaos Daemons (which is), when you die in the Materium you're basically psychic energy ramen noodles to be shredded and absorbed unless you have a patron that fancies you enough to expend the energy and effort to rebuild you into their new pet. Grimdark as it may be to bring the Haunter back, it's still a sign of weak writing to go down that road when all evidence and past fluff suggest such a thing would be functionally improbable.

 

The Liber Chaotica is very much canon. I have no inkling how you can think it is not but it is in fact the literal canon depiction of how the warp works. And as such it most certainly makes it very plain and clear there are several gods in the warp and the "big four" are in no means the end all, be all of the warp. Your description of how the warp works is also incorrect. The gods present in the warp are the congregate sum total of humanoid beliefs, emotions and faith. There are many, many gods in the warp as a result. A normal human being in 40k who believes in the Emperor is in fact taken at death to the Emperor's versions of heaven because the belief system states it is so and that belief of trillions upon trillions over 10, 000 years makes it so.

 

So no, Curze is not simply "warp romen noodles" to be eaten at a whim. In point of fact as a being who was literally beyond human in all facets his death and emergence into the warp would be a unique event. A being as powerful as Curze would be able to not only survive going into the Warp as a solid soul but would most likely adjust to his new reality by feeding on humanoid emotions, thoughts and feelings as do other warp gods. Since Curze was just a proponent of fear and terror it is entirely possible if not likely that he would in fact become either THE god of fear and terror or a minor god that is A god of fear and terror.

[Ju'kosian]

What a horrendous idea that would totally undermine the reason behind the Haunter's death. I'll quit this game and never come back if they made such a Wardian fluff retcon.

"The Nighthauntor is a shadowy daemon of vengeance who descends from the heavens only in times of the Night Lords' greatest need. To most he is a myth, but those few who have seen him cut a bloody path through the Night Lords' enemies and blaze across the battlefield like a hot and angry wind know different."

:P

I'm picturing the nightlord using something like the "Batlight" to call batman.. they have this huge batlight to call in the Night Haunter :lol:

[Watch Commander Danek]

First of all there is two arguments here.

 

The first being can The Haunter come back as some fear god or whatnot. If I remember my Liber Chaotica (and every single other source of fluff going back to the RoC books) right the Chaos gods, big and small, are amalgamations of intense feelings of entire societies, and even then are rare. Nearly an entire species had to die just to make the youngest of the Big 4 to put it in perspective. The Haunter was awesome, but really was only feared by..

- The people of one planet (Nostromo)

- The enemies of the Imperium (that could understand the concept of the Legions, etc) during the Great Crusade

- The people of the Imperium (that could understand the concept of the Legions, etc) during the Heresy

 

As awesome as the Haunter was, I'd hardly put his terror tactics into Chaos God territory. So that leaves ascention into Deamonhood ala' the Primarchs Angron, Lorgar, etc. But to do that you need to want it. Look at Abbadon, who is like "NO SIRS. NOT DONE YET BEING NON-DEAMONY."

The Haunter did not want it. Not only that but his geneseed seems the most resistant to such change if you can use the purity of the majority of his Legion as a basis of point.

 

 

Now the second argument is can GW bring the Haunter back this way, and we all have seen enough lately to know that of course they can. It's their IP.

But if they did, they'd royally piss off a ton of Nightlord players, both "puritan" and "tainted". Because the Legion is the point he made. To bring him back in any way would make his point trivial. Would make the Legion trivial, because it'd be like all the rest. Because the foundation for their nihilistic existance would be gone. The people who would want to see Haunter come back, as seen in this thread, is a very tiny percentage. it's bad business to cater to that.

[Bulwyf]

First of all there is two arguments here.

 

The first being can The Haunter come back as some fear god or whatnot. If I remember my Liber Chaotica (and every single other source of fluff going back to the RoC books) right the Chaos gods, big and small, are amalgamations of intense feelings of entire societies, and even then are rare. Nearly an entire species had to die just to make the youngest of the Big 4 to put it in perspective. The Haunter was awesome, but really was only feared by..

- The people of one planet (Nostromo)

- The enemies of the Imperium (that could understand the concept of the Legions, etc) during the Great Crusade

- The people of the Imperium (that could understand the concept of the Legions, etc) during the Heresy

 

As awesome as the Haunter was, I'd hardly put his terror tactics into Chaos God territory. So that leaves ascention into Deamonhood ala' the Primarchs Angron, Lorgar, etc. But to do that you need to want it. Look at Abbadon, who is like "NO SIRS. NOT DONE YET BEING NON-DEAMONY."

The Haunter did not want it. Not only that but his geneseed seems the most resistant to such change if you can use the purity of the majority of his Legion as a basis of point.

 

 

Now the second argument is can GW bring the Haunter back this way, and we all have seen enough lately to know that of course they can. It's their IP.

But if they did, they'd royally piss off a ton of Nightlord players, both "puritan" and "tainted". Because the Legion is the point he made. To bring him back in any way would make his point trivial. Would make the Legion trivial, because it'd be like all the rest. Because the foundation for their nihilistic existance would be gone. The people who would want to see Haunter come back, as seen in this thread, is a very tiny percentage. it's bad business to cater to that.

 

If WHFB can have gods being spawned by simply thousands of humanoids then the trillions of humans who lived in absolute fear of Curze during both the Crusade and the scouring of the eastern quadrant of the galaxy by him would be more than enough "psychic juice" to give Curze's soul in the warp the basis to become greater than what it was. In point of fact Curze as a primarch was already a unique entity both in the real world and in the warp.

 

I don't follow this side argument that the realization Curze is still alive in the warp would somehow diminish either his character or the Night Lords as a legion. It would simply make his story and the legions devotion of him even more tragic than it already is. I can't actually believe anyone here thinks Curze simply "died" because he wanted to die and his insanely powerful soul and psychic force in the Warp would simply, what, go away? I always assumed Curze and other deceased primarchs became minor gods in the Warp because it is simply form following function as set forth by GW's own rules on how the warp works.

[Watch Commander Danek]

I can't actually believe anyone here thinks Curze simply "died" because he wanted to die and his insanely powerful soul and psychic force in the Warp would simply, what, go away?

 

 

I dunno what to say to you mate. The numbers aren't lying to you. In the end you can obviously believe what you want personally though. :lol:

[Bulwyf]

I can't actually believe anyone here thinks Curze simply "died" because he wanted to die and his insanely powerful soul and psychic force in the Warp would simply, what, go away?

 

 

I dunno what to say to you mate. The numbers aren't lying to you. In the end you can obviously believe what you want personally though. :lol:

 

What numbers? No one has said anything that even remotely refutes this basic premise: when people die their souls go to the warp. Curze was not only human but superhuman. His soul when he died went to the Warp. Just because the guy was suicidal does not negate this simple fact in GW's universe. You have a soul, you die, it goes to the Warp. No one who is a Night Lord fan ever thought about this before I brought it up? I find that insanely improbable to believe.

[Watch Commander Danek]

It's not that noone thought this up before. I'm sure they have. it's just that noone cared and noone wants this concept you are fond of. I'll give you a cookie for being the first "fluff lawyer" I've ever seen though. ;)

[Bulwyf]

It's not that noone thought this up before. I'm sure they have. it's just that noone cared and noone wants this concept you are fond of. I'll give you a cookie for being the first "fluff lawyer" I've ever seen though. ;)

 

I'm not trying to be a fluff nazi though :P I just thought most people who are into the lore would also have some personal ideas about what happened to Curze and other deceased Primarchs by association. I grok that some people think I'm preaching heresy by having Curze still be around in some form but it is simply going by how the lore works that he would actually be around in some form.

 

Anyways. I think I upset too many guys apple carts by making them think about what happened to a Primarch after death so I'll probably go back to silent mode.

[Brother Ambroz]

You haven't offended anyone at all. I think it's an interesting perspective.

[the emperor is scottish]

First of all there is two arguments here.

 

The first being can The Haunter come back as some fear god or whatnot. If I remember my Liber Chaotica (and every single other source of fluff going back to the RoC books) right the Chaos gods, big and small, are amalgamations of intense feelings of entire societies, and even then are rare. Nearly an entire species had to die just to make the youngest of the Big 4 to put it in perspective. The Haunter was awesome, but really was only feared by..

- The people of one planet (Nostromo)

- The enemies of the Imperium (that could understand the concept of the Legions, etc) during the Great Crusade

- The people of the Imperium (that could understand the concept of the Legions, etc) during the Heresy

 

As awesome as the Haunter was, I'd hardly put his terror tactics into Chaos God territory. So that leaves ascention into Deamonhood ala' the Primarchs Angron, Lorgar, etc. But to do that you need to want it. Look at Abbadon, who is like "NO SIRS. NOT DONE YET BEING NON-DEAMONY."

The Haunter did not want it. Not only that but his geneseed seems the most resistant to such change if you can use the purity of the majority of his Legion as a basis of point.

 

 

Now the second argument is can GW bring the Haunter back this way, and we all have seen enough lately to know that of course they can. It's their IP.

But if they did, they'd royally piss off a ton of Nightlord players, both "puritan" and "tainted". Because the Legion is the point he made. To bring him back in any way would make his point trivial. Would make the Legion trivial, because it'd be like all the rest. Because the foundation for their nihilistic existance would be gone. The people who would want to see Haunter come back, as seen in this thread, is a very tiny percentage. it's bad business to cater to that.

 

 

Youve made the perfect point man.

It took the desolation of an entire species ie the eldar (not to mention billions of other life from countless other races) to give birth to slannesh.

None of us are saying your wrong but I just think that the majority of players would hate to see it happen. Curze death served as a F you to his father and to his brothers that he would bow to no one and worship nothing. The greatest thing about curze was he viewed the galaxy with untainted eyes and seen it for what it really is. Lonely, crule and merciless.

[Dammeron]

^ I think a more plausible possibility is that the Night Lord's feverish reverence for their Primarch and his philosophies may in fact generate and manifest daemons that are redolent of the Night Haunter; shadowy predators akin to Dark Eldar Mandrakes or some such.

[Hellios]

Also Spoiler

 

 

Konrad Curze still lives... What you have been told is a lie!