Kraull the Rampager Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Have any of you considered that maybe GW just said "Such and Such Primarch lives on this planet for such and such reasons and has never left" For reasoning that.... Point 1. Black Crusades Imagine the 7 (8 if you include Omegon) Primarchs leading large portions of their respective legions.... Infighting would occur so much quicker....as I doubt any of them would bow down to, as Sevatar of the Night Lords would put it...one of their nephews. Also, Mortarion hates Magnus. Everybody except Magnus hated Lorgar, and Angron would just crush skulls for giggles. Even so. Even if they DID fall in line....Chaos would rule, and what a terrible story that would be for our brutal setting ^.^ Point 2. The warp. Okay. I've established that leaving the warp together under a black crusade is a bad marketing move fluff-wise for GW, as the Imperium would die. Period. So here's a bulk of my point. They live in the warp. I doubt any of the Primarchs would merely play happy families with their most loyal and loving sons. I think they all would feel the need to slaughter after a period of time (as long/short that period of time is within the realm of madness). So, they may not lead a crusade out to the Imperium, as that weakens a daemon greatly to enter the real universe (What Primarch wants to give up their powers and then be eaten by another, now stronger daemon? Because remember, they're only daemons now, after all...as badass daemons as they are). But they may lead crusades through Chaos. Warbands fight within the warp over Daemon Worlds all the time. Fighting for slaves, ammunition, daemonic support, Obliterators, etc. Since the realms of the gods are ever-changing in their constant fight for domination, whats to say some of their most dangerous and beloved servants wouldn't join in on a Gods 'offensive' within the warp. I think this is actually where most warbands fight their battles, building themselves up stronger, with enough support from their god, in order to FINALLY fight the imperium... Point 3. Idleness. I saw a point saying that Mortarion and Magnus didn't want to follow their respective gods, and only due to events did they turn to them...Hence they sit idle.... Hm. Magnus' fall was questionable....a blood debt was owed due to saving the TS's, and I would say that Tzeentch said...So yeah, here's the cure...you'll serve me when I need you. Whilst Magnus giggled "Yeah right snip " behind his back. << Random point. Main point, is that they're now daemon princes....As mighty a being is...according to fluff, your whole perception and mindset changes as a daemon prince...there's just..something...about suddenly becoming immortal and not caring anymore about the corporeal universe. Since A primarch doesn't care anymore about their mortal problems, wouldn't they reap souls that they can turn into their own power? For more power? or, if dedicated to a god. Make said god stronger if they could? They're all war demi-gods. As human as they are on the inside, it doesn't make sense for them to sit idle for eternity, if they're bred for war. This would explain why (I'M SORRY) Draigo found Mortarion off Barbarus and carved his old chapter masters name in his heart... Would also explain what Fulgrims done for the past 10 millenia. As opposed to the boring old "Sit here I'm loving life on this world". People would like to take that from him. Hence he would fight for it, even if that means he doesn't leave the world...He'd still be fighting for it. Or maybe it's like a space hulk. Who knows. it's the warp. Lorgar is different though. He may occasionally lead an incursion against a specific god or warband if he wants to grow his borders for his legion, but he does sit in his daemon world full of church's whilst Erebus and a bunch of High Apostles make decisions for the legion... ^^^^ Just wanted to make the point that I doubt any Daemon, Space Marine, or Primarch would sit idle.....they would at least fight within the warp. Who knows. Some Primarchs may be dead now, their essenses lost to the sea of souls. Anyhow. My favorite Primarch is Angron. He's just too cool to miss. I'll take down a majority of a company of grey knights on my own, as well as countless guardsmen and a bunch of puppies. Oh, I'll also take over 70 star systems over 200 years. TAKE THAT DADDY ISSUES! Careful with the language choice, remember this is family friendly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watch Commander Danek Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 This would explain why (I'M SORRY) Draigo found Mortarion off Barbarus and carved his old chapter masters name in his heart... I think someone writing fluff like a 13 year old would explain that better old friend... :) I think we're all over thinking this a tad. I for one would love to see another Primarch besides Angron or Magnus get into some shenanigans. Either GW has yet to come up with a plot for them or they have something planned. Guess we'll wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 This would explain why (I'M SORRY) Draigo found Mortarion off Barbarus and carved his old chapter masters name in his heart... I think someone writing fluff like a 13 year old would explain that better old friend... :ermm: Exactly. Sorry, but that is by far the absolute worst bit of fluff I've ever heard, and I've been into 40k for 14 years now. I ain't buying it. Ward is seriously trying to tell me that a single Grey Knight (no matter how good he may be) was able to punk THIS GUY?!?!?! http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/548359MortarionPrinceofDecay.jpg Nonononono. Hell no. Uh-uh. Bullcrap. Unless it was 100 to 1 odds, no. Angrons' defeat made sense, and it was at great cost. This bit of fluff-crap? NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 *snip* Actually we do have a pretty clear picture of what most of the different Primarchs are doing, both in the Eye and elsewhere. Angron: Banished back into the Warp and slowly picking himself together so he can get a body again. Fulgrim: Possessed by a Daemon of Slaanesh and imprisoned within his own body. Sucks to be him. Mortarion: Sits on his nevershifting ass in his palace on his Plague Planet and creates new plagues who he poison the winds with and then send out as great plague winds to infect planets all over the universe. Magnus: Sits on his evershifting ass in his palace on the Planet of Sorcerors, but even doing that he still brings about events that reach across the entire universe and affect the lives of everyone in it. Also trying to learn the truth about the Warp so he can become the true master of it. Lorgar: Locked himself up in the deepest sanctuary of his cathedral for the past 10000 years studying Chaos and interpreting and penning down all of the visions and prophecies he recieve / do. And gave a direct order to never ever let anyone disturb him. Perturabo: Building his black fortress, the only Daemon Primarch we don't really know anything about. Horus:+ DEAD+ Konrad: +DEAD+ Alpharius / (Omegon): (Dead/Vanished) / (Vanished and never ever mentioned anywhere again after Legion) And there we have it. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Magnus: Sits on his evershifting ass in his palace on the Planet of Sorcerors, but even doing that he still brings about events that reach across the entire universe and affect the lives of everyone in it. Also trying to learn the truth about the Warp so he can become the true master of it. Except there is an Epic model for him so he must venture out at least occasionally...so he can blow a Reaver titan off the board with just his mind! Oh and didnt he lead the Thousand Sons attack on the Fang? I think Rarely ventures out might be more accurate ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Alpharius / (Omegon): (Dead/Vanished) / (Vanished and never ever mentioned anywhere again after Legion) Would just like to point out that Alpharius being dead is shaky at best... The reliability of the source questioned and it was remarkably easy for RG to kill A or O... Also it made him sound very easy to kill (for a Primarch) and I would suggest it was more likely RG killed one of his massive captains who was pretending to be A... If such events happened at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraull the Rampager Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Thank you TheDarkApostle for ignoring my point entirely.... Consider that most fluff is written from the viewpoint of the Imperium. Yes. According to such, the Primarchs might as well sit on their ass and scheme for a day that will never occur. The Terms I used, "the viewpoint OF THE IMPERIUM" and "MIGHT AS WELL". I doubt that demi-gods of war, no matter their original, we'll say for arguments sake "Mortal" thoughts and ambitions, would sit idle, as daemons who are in service to a greater power. Hell, as mortals, they didn't sit idle for a human. Why would they as immortals? They can still gain power. Why wouldn't they lead more crusades against their gods enemies within the warp. So yes. From the viewpoint of the Imperium, the only primarchs to do anything, since their acension are Magnus, and Angron. From the viewpoint of Chaos, we shall never know. Although it's highly likely that they lead bloody wars against each other to gain more gifts and take souls for themselves. After all, they're daemons. Even daemons have ambitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 So yes. From the viewpoint of the Imperium, the only primarchs to do anything, since their acension are Magnus, and Angron. From the viewpoint of Chaos, we shall never know. Although it's highly likely that they lead bloody wars against each other to gain more gifts and take souls for themselves. After all, they're daemons. Even daemons have ambitions. I'm pretty sure the Daemon in control of Fulgrim acts in the manner you describe... but the way Mortarion is described makes him sound like he is suffering from depression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 @ Kraull the Rampager The sources I used are sources NOT written from the viewpoint of the Imperium. As far as possible at least. Some Primarchs have extremely little written about them post Horus Heresy. Mortarion has indeed become an avatar of APATHY. That's the whole thing about the Death Guard Legion, Mortarion became an avatar of Apathy who withdrew and remade himself into a image of his foster-father and home planet, both which he hated previously, and became a shadowy tyrant ruler, just like his foster-father. And after that just became apathetic and stopped doing stuff. That's the motivator for Typhus to break of from him and start doing his own thing. Lorgar has repeatedly, in non-Imperium sources, been started to still be dedicated to trying to understand the Gods and how they affect things and are affected by things. Magnus is still dedicated to trying to master the Warp so that he can finally break free from Tzeentch. Angron is still banished. Perturabo is still the only Primarch we don't know anything about besides what little is given in the Iron Warriors Index Astartes article. And Fulgrim is still trapped inside his body with a Daemon of Slaanesh that apparently gain great everlasting pleasure from keeping him trapped and torturing him. Also these Primarchs still have LEGIONS to take care of everyday business like getting slaves and materials for them. They don't need to do that themselves. Also they are NOT simply DAEMONS. DAEMONS are purely made from a shard of the God that created them. As such normal Daemons are without exception formed to share the same mindset and will as the God that created it. That's the difference with Daemon Princes who were once mortals. They still get to retain their own minds, wills and most importantly, ambitions. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Just to add to the conversation concerning Daemon Princes, one of the pretty awful changes in the recent Chaos codicies (that stands contrary to all previous fluff concerning them) is their status: Daemon Princes were originally the highest amongst the high, so powerful and favoured by the Dark Gods they overshadowed the Greater daemons in terms of both power and authority by leagues and bounds. RoC states this, all army books concerning chaos since then have stated this, the Liber Chaotica states this in no uncertain terms. It's only with the most recent codicies that they have been demoted somewhat to lieutenants. Back in Second Ed, Daemon Princes were so unbelievably powerful they only existed as special characters, and were the ONLY characters in the entire game whose stats went above 10 (it made sense back in the old game systems). With regards to the Daemon Primarchs, despite there being plenty of OLDER daemon princes, they have always traditionally been described as the most powerful and favoured of all of the Chaos God's servants: the Liber Chaotica in particular points out that the God specific Daemon Primarchs are the overlords of their patron's daemonic minions, the most powerful and beloved of their servants. Only the recent codicies change this, and give no particular reasons for doing so. Given how utterly shoddy and lacking in inspiration said books are in every respect, I'm of the inclination to ignore this alteration completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Indeed, in 40k lore there has only ever been one single "normal" Daemon Prince ever said to have been stronger and more powerful than any of the Daemon Primarchs. And that is Doombreed. One of the first Daemon Princes ever. He's said to be more powerful and favored than Angron who has to be content with being the second more favored avatar of Khorne. As a footnote it's also said that only Doombreed and Angron hold the power to pull the World Eater Legion back together into something resembling the Legion it once was instead of the many individual warbands it is now. That's how badass Doombreed is. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 doombreed has always tickledmy interest, mianly because i have no clue as to how he would or might look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 ^ Why the original four from the second ed codex weren't included as special characters in the Daemon codex is utterly beyond me; not only are they fun and characterful (Foulspawn eating his opponents whole? Awesome fun!), they each seem to quite effectively represent the most salient aspects of their respective deities. It would also be interesting from a background perspective to learn a little more of their respective histories, particularly Doombreed. An ancient human warlord? Perhaps he was one of the first human beings in existence to ever raise a conquering army, to wage war against neighbouring tribes. There's alot of potential with these guys; it'd be great to see them back in one way, shape or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Haha, foulspawn with his 18 wounds! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 It would also be interesting from a background perspective to learn a little more of their respective histories, particularly Doombreed. An ancient human warlord? Perhaps he was one of the first human beings in existence to ever raise a conquering army, to wage war against neighbouring tribes. There's alot of potential with these guys; it'd be great to see them back in one way, shape or form. One of the commoner speculations I've seen (mostly on TV Tropes) is that he was Genghis Khan in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimz Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I hope that GW furthers the activity in the new codex, obviously nothing is going to affect game play. But it would be cool to see things like Angron being unbanished and starting to accumulate his World Eaters. Magnus and Ahriman teaming up (from memory there was a rift there caused by the rubric), stuff like that. Not only would it propagate interest in Chaos I think it'd further the "grimdarkness" of the imperium struggling to survive. Also Mortarion needs something after fluff-abomination Draigo carved his name in his heart... jeez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 It would also be interesting from a background perspective to learn a little more of their respective histories, particularly Doombreed. An ancient human warlord? Perhaps he was one of the first human beings in existence to ever raise a conquering army, to wage war against neighbouring tribes. There's alot of potential with these guys; it'd be great to see them back in one way, shape or form. One of the commoner speculations I've seen (mostly on TV Tropes) is that he was Genghis Khan in life. Indeed, after the Siege of Vraks however and the fluffnote about Uraka the Warfiend I'm not too sure though. Uraka was once such a man. In the ancient depths of human history he led armies in conquest. His horse-borne warbands were a scourge, burning and looting, killing and plundering at Uraka's command. I'm more starting to think that Doombreed might have been based on Alexander the Great, or possibly Xerces. Doombreed's true name has long been forgotten, but he was once human, a mighty warlord who led armies which ravaged entire nations on Earth long ago, responsible for genocide and murder on a grand scale. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watch Commander Danek Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Uraka was once such a man. In the ancient depths of human history he led armies in conquest. His horse-borne warbands were a scourge, burning and looting, killing and plundering at Uraka's command. I'm more starting to think that Doombreed might have been based on Alexander the Great, or possibly Xerces. Correct me if my history is wrong (or if I'm half asleep) but wasn't Genghis better known for his horse-borne warbands as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amalricus Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Gengis Khan was indeed famous for his horse-mounted army which swept through all Asia to end in eastern Europe during the XIIIth century. This was also the case of Atilla the Hun during the Vth century. Doombreed is said to be a warlord responsible for genocide and mass murder. I think either Hitler or Stalin are plausible choices, if Doombreed were to be an historical character. Napoleon, Alexander the great and the other great warlords are not remembered for the exactions they have comitted, but rather for their military or political genius and the scale of their conquests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Gengis Khan was indeed famous for his horse-mounted army which swept through all Asia to end in eastern Europe during the XIIIth century. This was also the case of Atilla the Hun during the Vth century. Doombreed is said to be a warlord responsible for genocide and mass murder. I think either Hitler or Stalin are plausible choices, if Doombreed were to be an historical character. Napoleon, Alexander the great and the other great warlords are not remembered for the exactions they have comitted, but rather for their military or political genius and the scale of their conquests. Also isn't Hitler always supposed to have a connection with the occult...? Never met the guy myself... couldn't say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Uraka was once such a man. In the ancient depths of human history he led armies in conquest. His horse-borne warbands were a scourge, burning and looting, killing and plundering at Uraka's command. I'm more starting to think that Doombreed might have been based on Alexander the Great, or possibly Xerces. Correct me if my history is wrong (or if I'm half asleep) but wasn't Genghis better known for his horse-borne warbands as well? Yes which is what I meant, the snippet about Uraka is from the Daemon Prince Uraka, not the Daemon Prince Doombreed. :pinch: TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.