Running Six Dreads, as a Codex Marine player.

[ShinyRhino]

As the title says, how would you go about building and running a 6-Dread list? Your first HQ is obviously going to be the Master of the Forge. How do you arm him? Do you deliver all the Dreads at deployment, or via pod?

I've got all these Dreads, but no real way to use them. I'm stumped, honestly. Minimum investment in points is 730 for barebones MM/DCCW-style Dreads and the basic Master in servoharness, and it eats all your Heavy and Elite slots. That leaves you with HQ, Troops, and Fast Attack to build from.

What points level do you feel it'd be ideal? What armies would it struggle mightily against? Which would it bully?

[Yotakka]

I've contemplated the same thing before and what i came up with was 3 rifleman dreads and either 3 ironclads in pods or 3 MM/DCCW/HF dreads in pods aswell.

 

as far as other elements i'd suggest sniper scouts (cloaks would b a good idea) as a means to pin disloged units that your up close dreads are near but not wanting to deal with just yet. and if tou feel a lack of long range fire power (12 AC shots are nice against most normal transports but not all) a couple typhoons would also help against av 13+ an horde alike.

[awfulawful]

I've tried it, and agree that pods are a necessary element of the list. I always ran two riflemen, two ironclads in pods, and the last two were either ML/LC, PC or AC dreads.

 

And Shiny, does anyone really need to remind you that the MoF should be on a bike? ;)

[spartan249]

Well, in my time with my dreads, I've come to the conclusion that dreads are most effective when cheaply outfitted with long range weapons and nothing else, then deployed in cover/defensive positions. I prefer the TL Lascannon as my weapon of choice which, while expensive, delivers high power ordnance at long range, a role that no other weapon available does quite as well.

 

I'd personally suggest going with 4 Lascannon/DCCW dreads and 2 hellfire/mortis variants, putting your MotF on a bike with a beamer, getting whatever troops you deem necessary, then filling the rest of the points out with speeders.

 

As for the last series of questions, I'll tell you my experience with my army. I think the army works best at 1500-1750 because of the nature of the dreads and their interaction with the FOC. Dreads are cheap in terms of points, but the opportunity costs you pay become more and more tremendous as the points value increases. At the middle point values, the hit is very minimal, as you couldn't get the super effective units in the slots anyway. At the 2k+ mark though, you really feel like you'd do better dropping a dread or two to get those super units in.

 

My style of army has a tough time with IG/Tau because of the nature of their weaponry and the nature of my strategy: I'm focusing on long range firepower, and that's something those two armies are naturally better at. While every game draws heavily from the element of luck, these games always feel stacked against me.

 

On the flip side, this style of army does well against short-ranged marine armies and melee-centric army types. Marine armies focusing on rhinos are the most hard hit by this for obvious reasons, as lascannons and missile launchers are ideal for engaging such light armor. Drop armies level the playing field quite a bit, so cover and reserves become very important in this match-up. By far, the short-ranged army with the best chance has to be jump pack armies, as they have the numbers to take lascannon shots for a turn or two before being able to engage your forces. Of course, the success of those engagements depend on what kind of preparations you've made for this engagement (I prefer assault terminators for point defense). Finally, any army that sources their anti-armor from a small number of specific units are in huge trouble against this army, as nearly the entire force is composed of armor. Focus fire those anti-armor units, and you are suddenly rendered invincible. While it sounds like a cardinal mistake that any sane person should avoid, it happens quite often in my forays.

[greatcrusade08]

this is how id go about it.

id take a Pw on the Motf and put him in a pod with an assault squad with dual flamers (or could go dual plasma, but flamers are better IMO) then put two dreads in pods, with four running on the ground.

have two heavy weapon builds, heavy gunner/riflemen and a lascannon/ML, and have two ironclads footslogging.

 

id then run scouts in land speeder storms and telion/snipers to punk any hidden powerfists.

 

alternatively if you have the points you could run two tac squads in pods aswell and put the ironclads in pods too.. that way all dreads can be dropped turn one

if your gunna give him targets, give him too many :D

[Zincite]

id then run scouts in land speeder storms and telion/snipers to punk any hidden powerfists.

We were all waiting for you to mention Scouts. :)

[Elric the Silvercoat]

You could run the MotF with Con Beamer with a Tact Squad with Missile Launcher or Lascannon with a Razorback with Lascannon TL Plamsa. Two Dreads as Rifleman pick two drop pods for these but don't put them in it, one with Lascannon Missile Launcher. Three Ironclads with Drop Pods. You will have five drop pods so the Ironclads will all be able to come in. Some Sniper Scout Squads to give some more ranged attacks. And some Tyhoons with Multi-meltas or Heavy Flamers.

[greatcrusade08]

We were all waiting for you to mention Scouts. ;)

 

its almost as if im predictable :)

[Master Melta]

I run two versions, one with 5 dreads and 1 with 6. I run the dreads I have so no rifleman dreads for me. I may get them some day but just don't like having to buy more arms!

 

Both armiers have the same core at 2250.

 

2 tact squads in rhinos with either las canons or Multi-meltas and flamer/combi-flamers.

 

1 tact squad (5 man) in TLLC Razorback

 

2 Land Speeder storms

 

The variance with 6 dreads, I add in another 5 man tac squad with a razorback and a ven dread with assault cannon

 

or

 

The variance with 5 dreads I just add tactical terminators with CLMS.

 

Core Dreads are 2 with TLLC and HF, 2 ICD in drop pods with heavy flamers and 2x HKM, and 1 Dread with MM and HF in a drop pod.

 

I run a conversion beamer on foot that chills with the 5 man squad.

 

The dread army is fun to play but it is tricky. As with all AV units, a single shot can end a dread so you have to be careful and can't just leave them all in the open. They are support units without the pods, with the pods they are flys in the ointment and they can do well. Just be careful around melta. Melta threat always makes the placement of pods tricky so watch out for that.

 

As I said, they are support units. On their own, even in close combat, they are unlikely to overwhelm anything. Kind of like a tactical squad. 10 goons with no melta gun or power first only have selective targets. However, those same goons with a dread on their flank are a different story.

 

That being said, they can take punishment and last. Even an armless dread can contest, assault, deny a killpoint or tarpit a unit.

 

I run the terminators to and find that they give me some CC punch and long range threats that can't be destroyed with a single shot.

 

I guess it's about balance.

 

I do quite well with them in my local scene and would recommend trying them out and learning from your losses!

 

Apologies for the abbreviations.

 

MM

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've done it before too.

 

I keep my MOTF on foot with his harness, and placed an AC/DCCW Dread and two Ironclads in base to base and marched them straight up the gut with Rhino-mounted Tactical Squads on the flanks. The MOTF sticks to the ass end of your center-most Dread to repair anything that needs fixing as they march up. I have a rifleman and a TL las/ML Ven Dread in the back for long-range gunnery duels, and a multimelta/DCCW Ven in a pod for that first-turn Land Raider destruction.

 

Has worked well in the past. Except against Tau.

[BassWave]

I say you should check out Muhgi's battle reports in the liber victorum forum. He has been able to go toe to toe with more "competative lists" and won, or atleast drawn. He usually takes-

 

MotF

3 Fully decked out Ironclads with melta/flamer

3 hellfire venerable dreads

Speeder storm with melta scouts

2 cyclone speeders

 

And I forget what else, but check it out its pretty interesting :D

[ShinyRhino]

I'll go look at those reports.

What, pray tell, is a "Hellfire" Dread?

[greatcrusade08]

I'll go look at those reports.

What, pray tell, is a "Hellfire" Dread?

 

arent they TLLC and ML combo?

[BassWave]

Yup, Lascannon and missile combo. I think Mughi also puts extra armor on his ven dreads as well. Expensive, but he says in his experience its worth it.

[DarkGuard]

I'll go look at those reports.

What, pray tell, is a "Hellfire" Dread?

 

arent they TLLC and ML combo?

 

Names after, I believe, one of the DoW1 variants of Dread, where a hellfire Dread started with an assault cannon and missile launcher and you could then upgrade the assault cannon to the TL-LC. Personally I prefer rifleman, but I suppose for those on a budget the hellfire variant is still a good anti-tank unit.

[OptiMAT]

2x2x2.

 

Keep the standard dreads as shooty, and the Ironclad dreads as CQC, and the Venerable ones as a good mix between the two.

 

That way you have a second chance at everything (when one gets shot out) and you make the best use of the weapon loadout mixtures available. You keep points down too as a compromise instead of just taking 6 of the Vens which would be strongest but expensive.

 

That's just how I'd do it. The MOTF in my imaginary army list in this situation would be fairly standard/minimal, maybe with some Servitors to shoot it up a bit in a tight spot?

[Muctar]

That's just how I'd do it. The MOTF in my imaginary army list in this situation would be fairly standard/minimal, maybe with some Servitors to shoot it up a bit in a tight spot?

Or some servitors with servo-arms to help with repair rolls and add ablative wounds for the MotF.

[spartan249]

I will respectfully disagree with mughi's opinion that Extra Armor and Venerable dreads are indeed worthy of the hefty points investment. The basis of my argument is thus: The investment into the survivability and viability of the Dreadnought weapon system is significantly higher then the returns experienced in the field.

 

Consider this: Venerable status and Extra Armor cost 75 extra points total each dreadnought. For this very hefty investment, you get damage rerolls and you downgrade stunned results to shaken. While this sounds good, I look at this situation like this. The Venerable reroll does not prevent the dreadnought from taking damage. No matter what happens, something bad will happen to the dread, most likely of which will be the dread's inability to fire any weapons in the subsequent turn. Despite the investment of 75 points, this will not change. Thus, the main reason for taking the dreadnought will still be nullified. Granted, the statistical probabilities of the dreadnought surviving the damage are increased significantly, but the cost in extra firepower is simply too high to warrant the investment. You can include a much larger amount of firepower using points saved by downgrading the dreads to normal status and omitting extra armor, which in turn can work more proactively in protecting your dreadnoughts by destroying the threats instead of fortifying the individual pieces.

 

For example, let's see what we can do with 800 points.

We can do either

 

4 Venerable Dreads with Extra Armor and Assault Cannon & HF - 800 pts

 

Or

 

4 Dreads with Lascannons - 540 pts

2 Squadrons of 2 MM/HF Speeders - 280 pts

 

This is a very simplified illustration of my point. If these two forces were to face off in battle, odds are that the second force would emerge victorious more often then the first force simply because the second force has a greater number of weapons distributed amongst a larger number of weapon platforms, thus requiring more firepower to engage successfully. The first force will undoubtedly be intimidating and tough, but will ultimately prove to put out vastly lower amounts of firepower then the second force because the first will be much easier to silence then the second. The emphasis of toughness in return for firepower is the most harmful thing here, as firepower is the most reliable answer to enemy threats.

 

Venerable dreads may be more resilient then normal dreads, but that resilience does not silence the enemy weapon platforms.

[Bannus]

Spartan is right (although I will still upgrade at least one Dread to Venerable for the sake of variety). I tend to limit the number of upgrades I add to my Dreads as well - but again, I may 'splurge' on a Dread here or there for the sake of variety and not for points efficiency.

 

If you are going more for mathhammer than fun, keep the upgrades on each Dread to a minimum and use the points on more support units to draw fire, take objectives, etc.

[ShinyRhino]

My limited experience also falls in line with Spartan's view. I'll take Venerable on one or two Dreads, but never in combination with Extra Armor. I typically tack Venerable to a TLLC/ML (Hellfire, apparently;)) platform. Very reliable hits every turn with a S8 and a S9 weapon, and the chance to shrug off those Wrecked and Explodes results.

I never force the reroll on a fire support Dread until it is in danger of complete destruction. Immobilized is fine, so long as my Dread has a solid field of fire, and Weapon Destryoed is acceptable as well so long as I have one gun remaining.

 

I only put Extra Armor on Dreads with short-range weapons (multimelta, assault cannon, etc) and a DCCW. These Dreads are dead in the water on a Stunned result, so the points for extra armor can allow them to at least keep moving, and possibly make it to assault range.

 

I don't waste points on Venerable for Dreads that will be in close proximity to the enemy, because they tend to also be in melta range. Venerable doesn't do nearly as well when facing the +1 to damage results from melta weapons. The percentages just aren't there.

[Master Melta]

I will say this when it comes to Veneral Dreads. They are expensive, and sometimes the ability doesn't work, but when it does, you really nerf the bad guy's plans. There is nothing more frustrating than losing a dread, on turn 1 to a missile launcher shot. On the flip side, making them reroll the effect and getting a 1, 2, 3 or even a 4 makes it worth it, even if it happens once per game. PLUS, if you are running more than 3 dreads, you have a MOTF around that repair those 3-4 results.

 

Another note, while melta is bad news for dreads, the venerable ability really shines in combat, as does that +1 WS. Fists or claws are rather low percentage shots on dreads, typically 50% to hit and 50% to even glance, what's that, like 25% to do anything? Lower to pen? I would much rather wade into some bad guys hitting on 3's and killing on 2's, and making them reroll those chance destroyed results, typing that unit up, than saving the 60 points while my dread blows up and the bad guys run amok.(sp?)

 

I have maxed it out, with 4 ven dreads and gone as few as 1 in 6 dread lists. The ven dread always limps along and monkeys with the enemy's wrench...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

My favorite Dreadnought of mine is a Venerable with Extra Armor, multimelta, DCCW, and heavy flamer in a drop pod. The pod gets him close early to put that melta to work, and it hits on a 2+, giving you an excellent chance at an early tank kill. The Venerable helps to keep him alive during the inevitable "SHOOT IT!" reaction, and the Extra Armor can keep him moving so that he can charge something if he does survive, and the WS5 means he's only needing 3's to crump Marines.

[Master Melta]

yessir. That's a good one and takes advantages of all those Venerable points. When I was running 4 vens, that was always one, pod included, but not mandatory. After all, that land raider is going to be moving your way. The drop pod really excels when in front of a line of LRBT or even better, a bunched up group of dark eldar. melta one, and lay that flamer template over 2 venoms and 3 raiders. yeah, you need 5's to do any thing but you are already nuking one raider with a +2 to the roll and ever 5 that rolls up to glance or pen is bonus, in-your-face-new-codex-min-maxer-medicine.