The Black Eagles

[NightrawenII]

The problem is that you've interpreted the OP's words to mean something, though he has already indicated that your interpretation was incorrect - he's not talking about the types of operations that you object to (yet you continue to object :D ). Space Marines don't normally conduct fleet operations since their fleets aren't normally capable of those types of actions, that being the province of the Imperial Navy. However, they most definitely conduct space-borne operations, patrolling, raiding, counter-attacking, counter-pirate actions, etc. Battlefleet Gothic rules and background make it very clear that the Space Marines are a fearsome prospect in boarding actions and I've already identified a number of examples where the canon describes Space Marines in space. Based on how knowledgeable you claim to be, I shouldn't have to post any quotes to more clearly illustrate the examples (though I'd be happy to if necessary).

Then what is your objection, again? It seems to me like you are argumenting for the sake of argumenting. :(

 

+

the battalion issue:

 

You know, what is problem with your arguments and responses? - You don't understand the context of such things, just because something here or over there exists and works, it doesn't make it functional in every condition.

That's why your 'proofs' aren't proofs at all, because validity of proof is determined by the validity of condition.

Yes, the Space Marines do fight in Naval battles, but because of circumstances, not because it's something they are actively looking for.

Yes, the today military organisation and doctrines can be applied to Adeptus Astartes, but you have to create the apropriate conditions.

 

Context is what I seek and the context of certain elements in this article and/or in your arguments is either weak or non-existant.

 

 

~NightrawenII.

[blackoption]

Original post has been updated.

 

However, I am also noting that it is getting to be a LONG and INDEPTH account. How did it grow so big so fast?

 

Part of me is considering breaking this up into two separate posts. I now fear I will get allot of TL;DR...

 

Has this been an issue for anyone else?

 

Anyways. The following updates:

 

-Clarifying some of the events after the Tisiphone incursion. Specifically involving the Raptors

-Explaining why the Chapter established a homeworld beyond the fact that they suddenly did.

-A little more details on how the Southern End operates

-A brief explanation on the Praetorians, their decree, and some more details on the Nightwing.

[TrashMan]

I like your Chapter.

[blackoption]

@Trashman: Thank you. I haven't done much work with them as of late, maybe I need to get back to work on them.

[Messor]

I didn't see anyone ask this...but the letters following your battle brothers' names killed me. What are they?

 

Now that the OCD's out of the way, prime Chapter, sir, quite enjoyed it. I don't know how much of the older critiques you're working off of, so rather than revisit them, I'll just ask some questions and throw in highlight any loose ends I notice:

 

A couple folks mentioned the legions you use to decimate the Black Eagles in the beginning. I'm curious to know if there's any particular reason you chose those legions. If not, I'd be curious why you stuck with them, despite forces that might be more likely to achieve what you aim for. I'm inclined to agree with brother Brule, though, that there's hardly a universal rule, leastwise for chaos.

 

"The retreat from the Tisisphone Reefs" looks like you tossed an extra "is" in there.

 

"At the time of the 3rd Founding, the Black Eagles were established to be a Fleet Based chapter that would patrol large swathes of the Ultima, Obscurus, and Solar Segmentums at irregular intervals. The Black Eagles make it a point to never repeat the same patrol route or even return along the route that it started on. For much of the Imperium's history, the Black Eagles kept these seemingly random patrol route, only deviating (if that is even an appropriate term) for recruitment purposes."

-I would fuse at least that first line back into the origins section, since it 1)restates something we've already learned and 2)has little bearing on the homeworld. Do they still patrol these large, random swathes? If not, some of this should probably be made past tense.

 

"established a Fortress Monastery on the Bragg" The planet Bragg, right?

 

Big fan of the ideas on recruitment and combat doctrine; it's reflection of the modern military. I noted that you staunchly defended the idea of volunteering to expunge traitor Chapters, and I'm strongly inclined to agree that the attrition of two Chapters going head to head will be ridiculously steep, especially if those traitors have made any preparations at all to leave the Imperium i.e. pacts with Chaos for aid/reinforcments, or forgoing the codex to recruit in excess of the 1000 standard marines. Definitely seems like work for diverse strike force. Sure, one to volunteer for, but still more than 1:1.

 

Battalions are interesting, I know my roommate would be a fan of that.

 

"The Black Eagles refuse to the Emperor of Mankind a god" Call? Not that I disagree, since most Chapters espouse this view, but considering the powerful psychic nature of the E.(and comments in another IA), I wonder if the "line" would be so clear. As mentioned, there's also the recruitment of IG children. If there were ever "no atheists in a foxhole", it would be among the IG. How do they face such a change in belief/perspective?

 

Great stuff, at any rate. Do you have a picture of the Chapter Symbol you can post along with colors? If you like, I can also photoshop it onto the armor. I should probably do that for the rest of my IAs...been slacking.

[Gripharius]

I like the idea of marrying the Ultramarines "shooty" to the Raptors "sneaky" a lot as a concept.  I'd like to see it explained a little more in the IA, though.  And an example of it might be make a good sidebar since it is a big part of your Chapter's theme.  Just a thought.

[blackoption]

 

I didn't see anyone ask this...but the letters following your battle brothers' names killed me. What are they?

Now that the OCD's out of the way, prime Chapter, sir, quite enjoyed it. I don't know how much of the older critiques you're working off of, so rather than revisit them, I'll just ask some questions and throw in highlight any loose ends I notice:

A couple folks mentioned the legions you use to decimate the Black Eagles in the beginning. I'm curious to know if there's any particular reason you chose those legions. If not, I'd be curious why you stuck with them, despite forces that might be more likely to achieve what you aim for. I'm inclined to agree with brother Brule, though, that there's hardly a universal rule, leastwise for chaos.

"The retreat from the Tisisphone Reefs" looks like you tossed an extra "is" in there.

"At the time of the 3rd Founding, the Black Eagles were established to be a Fleet Based chapter that would patrol large swathes of the Ultima, Obscurus, and Solar Segmentums at irregular intervals. The Black Eagles make it a point to never repeat the same patrol route or even return along the route that it started on. For much of the Imperium's history, the Black Eagles kept these seemingly random patrol route, only deviating (if that is even an appropriate term) for recruitment purposes."
-I would fuse at least that first line back into the origins section, since it 1)restates something we've already learned and 2)has little bearing on the homeworld. Do they still patrol these large, random swathes? If not, some of this should probably be made past tense.

"established a Fortress Monastery on the Bragg" The planet Bragg, right?

Big fan of the ideas on recruitment and combat doctrine; it's reflection of the modern military. I noted that you staunchly defended the idea of volunteering to expunge traitor Chapters, and I'm strongly inclined to agree that the attrition of two Chapters going head to head will be ridiculously steep, especially if those traitors have made any preparations at all to leave the Imperium i.e. pacts with Chaos for aid/reinforcments, or forgoing the codex to recruit in excess of the 1000 standard marines. Definitely seems like work for diverse strike force. Sure, one to volunteer for, but still more than 1:1.

Battalions are interesting, I know my roommate would be a fan of that.

"The Black Eagles refuse to the Emperor of Mankind a god" Call? Not that I disagree, since most Chapters espouse this view, but considering the powerful psychic nature of the E.(and comments in another IA), I wonder if the "line" would be so clear. As mentioned, there's also the recruitment of IG children. If there were ever "no atheists in a foxhole", it would be among the IG. How do they face such a change in belief/perspective?

Great stuff, at any rate. Do you have a picture of the Chapter Symbol you can post along with colors? If you like, I can also photoshop it onto the armor. I should probably do that for the rest of my IAs...been slacking.

@ Messor:
I think you are refering to the Milleinium date stamp I have for each of the quotes. The intent for each quote to be placed at a specific era in the Black Eagles history. I have alot more history I could incorperate, but I am concerned that I will get alot of Too Long; Didn't Read (TL;DR) at the wall or text. While many have read the article, few have offered me feed back, so I stopped editing it for a time. I will get back to it shortly, particularly now that I have a completed dreadnaughtwho is a significant character for this army.

The two traitor legions involved are quite specific. Like many chapters, the Black Eagles have bits of their past they are not proud of. Their are details in the IA that may hint as to why, but that is not my place to say... at least not at this time.

I am military and I drew from my experiences. I've always identified with the Ultra's but I love the Raven Guard as well. So I attempted to blend the chapters while keeping its own unique identity. I think I did it fairly well, but it could use some tweaks (and edits)

As for Astartes vs. Traitor Astartes engagements... It can be done, but it has to be done intelligently and (often) one sided in the engagement. One of the future edits was going to include either a battle report against traitor forces or a blurb about how they paitently work to hunt and strike at isolated elements of traitor forces... attack them in peicemeal in a sense. While they are sons of Guilliman, they are not above sucker punching a hated foe. As for why the volunteer... that has to do with the Tisiphone incursions. Feel free to speculate.

As for the Battalions... initially I thought I was being divergant from the codex with that structure... but it turns out I was going back to the older legion structure. Funny how that works.

You bring up a good point about atheistic beliefs and recruitment. It was something I had not considered... I had hoped Chaplain's Kearns talk with the bishop would cover most of that. I definately want the chapter to keep its view that "gods" are a term not to be associated with the Emperor of man... perhaps if they refer to the Emperor as the Paitrarch of Man and father of the Primarchs, it might make the leap more believable. (besides, I can think of a certain Krogan xeno who has come to enjoy the name and the power it represents.)

When I get set chapter symbol established, I'll be happy to ask for your assitance in the matter. My webmaster skills are rather basic.

@Gripharius: What would you suggest for the sidebar? Edited March 18, 2013 by blackoption

[Gripharius]

@Gripharius: What would you suggest for the sidebar?

 

Just an example of how the Chapter joins Ultramarine tactics with Raptors tactics.  Something like a standard "Codex" attack pattern easily read by defending Renegade Marines who gun down the advancing Black Eagles. As the Renegades come out of their entrenched position, gloating at the ease of the victory because they recognized the standard tactic, the "dead" Black Eagles stand back up and annihilate the Renegades.

 

Maybe that's a weak example, but something where the two sides of the Chapter are shown.

 

Maybe one Company advances in a Ultramarines "shooty" attack while another goes Raptor "sneaky" on the enemy from behind.

[Messor]

@ Messor:

I think you are refering to the Milleinium date stamp I have for each of the quotes. The intent for each quote to be placed at a specific era in the Black Eagles history.

Nanah, this here: Brother Riddlen, K (Serial: L243-995-IP33Z), the K and other letters following names.

I have alot more history I could incorperate, but I am concerned that I will get alot of Too Long; Didn't Read (TL;DR) at the wall or text.

Aye, that's always a risk. I feel like some things are best kept for yourself anyway. Its nice when people appreciate certain efforts in an article, but sometimes they're better off shared only with those you know will appreciate it. In some cases, that might just be you.

>dreadnaught

Nice job. Not a huge fan of contemptors, myself, but that's some great painting.

The two traitor legions involved are quite specific. Like many chapters, the Black Eagles have bits of their past they are not proud of. Their are details in the IA that may hint as to why, but that is not my place to say... at least not at this time.

Do you mean to reward those who speculate correctly with the truth?

I am

military and I drew from my experiences. I've always identified with the Ultra's but I love the Raven Guard as well. So I attempted to blend the chapters while keeping its own unique identity. I think I did it fairly well, but it could use some tweaks (and edits)

Well I'm probably not qualified to say, but a unique Chapter they are.

As for Astartes vs. Traitor Astartes engagements... It can be done, but it has to be done intelligently and (often) one sided in the engagement. One of the future edits was going to include either a battle report against traitor forces or a blurb about how they paitently work to hunt and strike at isolated elements of traitor forces... attack them in peicemeal in a sense. While they are sons of Guilliman, they are not above sucker punching a hated foe. As for why the volunteer... that has to do with the Tisiphone incursions. Feel free to speculate.

And speculate I will. I won't belabor the point, though I feel like in order to take on a force equal in strength and training, it'll take a lot of sucker punching. Its not that I don't think it could happen, I'm just left wondering, 'If they know they are traitor, bound to be excommunicate and hunted, how do you get the drop on them?' I can imagine some ways it might be done, but I'm no strategist, so I'll leave that to them.

You bring up a good point about atheistic beliefs and recruitment. It was something I had not considered... I had hoped Chaplain's Kearns talk with the bishop would cover most of that. I definately want the chapter to keep its view that "gods" are a term not to be associated with the Emperor of man... perhaps if they refer to the Emperor as the Paitrarch of Man and father of the Primarchs, it might make the leap more believable. (besides, I can think of a certain Krogan xeno who has come to enjoy the name and the power it represents.)

It sure would be handy if we had a precedent for Chapters recruiting Guard children/orphans. I don't think it'll be a really big deal, but yeah, easing them into with a notion of the "Patriarch of Man" would be cool(heh, no allusions to busted redundant hearts necessary) Edited March 19, 2013 by Messor

[blackoption]

I have finally done a revision of the Black Eagles. I've deceided to remodel Bragg on Armatura then Cadia. I really enjoyed the book Betrayer, so I had to have an Armatura referrance in there somewhere.

 

I also corrected the battalions being a legion organization rather than a new organization.

 

Unfortunately... i screwed something up and all the side panels disappeared. The text is still there, but the formating has changed. I will try and correct that later tonight...

 

Comments and critques would be appreciated.

 

@ Messor:

Would it spoil the mystery if I told you want those letters are?

 

But yes, if there is correct speculation on the Black Eagle's history, parts of it will be revealed. However, the clues are not just in posts that I have authored. I have worked to tie this chapter in with....    well, I'll let you all hunt for what.

 

@ Gripharius: I put up a "sidebar" to explain how the Black Eagles fight

[Aegnor]

My theory on the letters was that it was the initial of marine's first name. Like Ragnar Blackmane would be Blackmane, R. But maybe some things we're just not meant to know!

 

My theory on the letters was that it was the initial of marine's first name. Like Ragnar Blackmane would be Blackmane, R. But maybe some things we're just not meant to know!

[blackoption]

@ Aegnor: You are correct. They are the first initial of the battle brother's names. It is a character quirk for the chapter. While they rarely use a first name, they still acknowledge its existence in their own internal records.

 

I have managed to correct most of the formatting issues. The article is looking cleaner, but I am still having issues with the thriced damn's side bar formatting tags. I'll try again later.

 

I will also be linking relevant articles to this IA. Some of them will be obvious (such as Thayer) others will not be posted until someone has made a correct connection or speculation.  In theory, we I can expand on its history and some of the mystery without a cumbersome article. 

 

As always: comments, thoughts, critiques, and other random statements are welcome.