are assault cannons worth it.

[thecapn226]

Our club recently increased our game points by 100. I'm running 5 razorbacks with HB and PBA right now and I'm wondering if is would be worth it to make then all assault cannons with PBA. Anyone played this or played against it?

[Inquisitor Fox]

You sacrifice range for actually having anti-armor capability without losing anti-infantry firepower, especially if you psybolt ammo them. Downside is each Razorback is worth about 50% more. Personally, I think it'd be highly effective ^_^

[ASE.Rags]

If you could tell us, what else you have on the table and who rides the RBs, this would really help us to tell you if you should go for it or not. But in general I'd say they are overprized. For the 175pt they cost you can even buy a 5 man strike sqad incl. Psycanon and HB Razorback or a Psyfleman Dread and some spare points for some extra juice on another squad. I also saw somebody else making a complicated calculation about HB and assault cannons (can't remember who it was and i'm not a math genius, but it looked plausible) and the result was that there is no substantial plus on hits/wounds per turn. If the assault cannon would have STR 8 with PSA I'd consider it to be better then the HB but as it looks now I think it's not worth the points.

 

On the other hand I don't have personal xp with assault cannons on Razorbacks, but I'd allways go for HB+PSA (with GK) or as I played with my Marines Lascannon+Plasma.

 

Rags

[Chengar Qordath]

Personally, I think assault cannon Razorbacks are a bit too expensive for what they can do. Assault cannons are nice, but taking them instead of heavy bolters nearly doubles the price of your Razorback. The loss of 12" of range can also sting a bit, though with GKs really building around 24" firepower that's not a critical issue.

[Drachnon]

I like assault cannons overall though I find them a bit expensive on Razorbacks, they're not very durable and if you're planning to actually transport things as well you'll be moving 12" rather then shooting. The only thing you have going for you is fortitude, I find that normal razorbacks get shaken/stunned too easily.

Also for 35 points you're probably better of getting some better weapons for your squads.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Quoting my own work in This Post:

 

Alright, being a math geek has it's advantages I suppose... ahem...

 

Assuming we're shooting at a MEQ target and factoring in Rending (apparently I'm just that awesome):

 

TL Heavy bolter Razorback w/ psybolts kills 0.7407

TL Assault cannon Razorback w/ psybolts kills 1.3827 (no stormbolter, just the main gun)

 

stormbolter gives .2222 kills

stomrbolter with psybolt ammo gives .2963 kills

 

infantry based Psycannon stationary kills 1.0371 (on the move generates only .5186 kills)

 

Changing the Razorback to an Assault cannon generates (1.3827-0.7407) or 0.642 additional kills per shooting phase

 

Adding a psycannon to an infantry squad adds (1.0371-0.2222) or 0.8149 kills per shooting phase, assuming you are standing still and do not have psybolt ammo. If you are moving, it only adds (0.5186-0.2222) or 0.2964 kills per shooting phase.

 

This leads to the following question: What do you intend to accomplish with the unit? Is it played aggressively, or standing still? Is the difference of 4 or 5 additional Razorbacks (5* 0.642) kills greater than an additional 6 man squad? Would you rather have the extra scoring unit?

 

A: (180 points) 6 GKSS w/ psycannon, Razorback w/ TL heavy bolters, psybolt ammo: 1.1110 kills from the infantry + 1.0371 from the psycannon + .7407 from the razorback = 2.8888 total deaths

 

5 * 0.642 = 3.21

 

Technically you get more kills per shooting phase from the Razorbacks, however there are some caveats. First, you're assuming all the Razorbacks are in range of something and have the ability to shoot. You also give up an extra scoring unit. It's really a question of which do you feel works better for your playstyle and list. You do get more anti-armor capability from the TL assault cannons w/ psybolt ammo though.. those can even handle a Land Raider better than TL Lascannons.

 

Ultimate, the choice is in your hands :down:

[thecapn226]

The list I was thinking of was this

 

Crowe

Inquisitor with 3 plasma cannon servitors in a chimera

 

Vindicare

 

2x 6 purifiers 2 incinerators, 2 halberds, hammer, KOF with halberd

2 razorbacks with PBA and assault cannon

 

3x 6 purifiers armed as above except 2 psycannons instead of incenerators

3 PBA razorbacks with assault cannon

 

3 psydreads.

 

Hard shooty army that has decent counter attack. We also play 2100 pts

[Drachnon]

I used to run purifiers in razorback but stopped doing so because having my purifiers limited in their movement was messing up my game plan. I now put them in a rhino and move 12" till I'm close enough to roast the enemy with incinerators.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you spam assbacks it might have some application but other than its an expensive light transport in my mind.

 

G :P

[Chengar Qordath]

I'd have to agree there; Razorbacks really don't work for carrying Incinerator or close-combat squads; the heavy weapon goes to waste, and any squad getting that close the enemy will usually want more bodies.

 

I'd run Razorbacks with psycannon units; Grey Knight MSU is all about the 24" firepower.

[Drahazar]

dont really like them that much.

[thecapn226]

Ok. So I got to try out the assault cannons. It's nice against msu but it lacks against other armies. Thanks for the c&c

[thade]

I used to run Assault Cannon Razorbacks; two to three of them back when I started playing. (Mind you, this was with the vanilla codex.) The good news is, TL-Assault Cannons are awesome. They shred up infantry and can punch through light armor in a pinch; they even have a fair (if not great) chance to punch through AV 14.

 

The bad news is, it's still a Rhino. AV 11 won't hold up to any anti-tank fire (unless the dice gods are very kind to you) and they're expensive.

 

If I were to run any again, I'd only run one to every three Rhinos (or other forward vehicles) I had. The Razorback would be used like a Predator or even a lascannon-wielding Land Raider: in the back, behind everything else. Unlike those other tanks, an assault cannon is only 24" range...so "behind everything else" means "not very far behind" and possibly "everything else is pushed very far forward".

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Dude, we already have psycannons, which are cheaper to access and everywhere. Knights lack two key things when it comes to ranged firepower: reach (ie beyond 24") and AP2/1.

 

Out of all the turret options, the lascannon and twin plasma gun is pretty amazing. At long range, it offers the ability to shake gunboats, stun or immobilise transports, and outright annhilate light armour (AV10/11 doesn't like lascannon at all). When you get closer, instead of relying on long odds with the Rends on psycannon to bypass good armour, you have a twin-linked plasma gun for burning through TDA and MC's. It can even function against armour in a pinch (two S7 shots against say AV10 side on a Chimera or a DE Raider is perfectly acceptable over the single S9 shot of the lascannon).

 

If you're going to bother giving up transport space, give the Razor a decent turret. Anti-infantry is not an issue with Knights, it's reach and anti-tank/AP2-1.

[thade]

To be fair, TL-Psycannons are harder to come by. :( In fact, the only way to get them, is to load up a TL-Assault Cannon with Psyammo.

 

So, it's true we have Psycannons everywhere. What's wrong with wanting more?

[Inquisitor Fox]

If you're going to bother giving up transport space, give the Razor a decent turret. Anti-infantry is not an issue with Knights, it's reach and anti-tank/AP2-1.

I agree with you on the reach issue, however in terms of anti-armor, a single psycannon has a better chance at eliminating a Land Raider than a single lascannon in one round of shooting. A twin-linked psycannon even more so than a twin-linked lascannon. The bigger issue is the 24" vs 48". In my own experience, however, that hasn't been much of an issue really.

 

It's a more aggressive style, and can rely more upon approaches, maneuvering, and terrain. I've always been of the opinion that Inquisitorial/Ecclesiarchy forces are more in your face/cityfight style combats than open field engagements.

[thade]

GK as a whole fire 24" on the move; since your troops and their respective transports will be mid-table anyway, why not take the assault cannon over the lascannon?

[jhrovii]

I've used Psaultbacks. It's about what you'd expect.

 

You slide across the table with wild abandon, popping enemy rhinos. Suddenly, you're dead. They help against heavy armor, but they're a points sink. Keep 'em alive and they're worth it.

 

(You should probably mutter "DAKKADAKKADAKKA" under your breath during your shooting phase)

[thade]

(You should probably mutter "DAKKADAKKADAKKA" under your breath during your shooting phase)

Best advice I've seen today.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

To be fair, TL-Psycannons are harder to come by. In fact, the only way to get them, is to load up a TL-Assault Cannon with Psyammo.

 

So, it's true we have Psycannons everywhere. What's wrong with wanting more?

 

Saturation effect. Its the same reason we don't just spam Strike squads and call it a day. You need to take units to fulfil certain roles. The same applies to weapon selections.

 

I agree with you on the reach issue, however in terms of anti-armor, a single psycannon has a better chance at eliminating a Land Raider than a single lascannon in one round of shooting. A twin-linked psycannon even more so than a twin-linked lascannon. The bigger issue is the 24" vs 48". In my own experience, however, that hasn't been much of an issue really.

 

Actually, getting those Rends is harder than people imagine, especially when you're forced to remain stationary to get maximum dakka (TDA is usually only one or two squads at best, and only Paladins bring psycannons in significant amounts). Reach is a bigger issue than I think many people understand. Most tanks are happy to outrange 24" infantry, and Raiders usually commit under a smoke screen (and between extra armour and POTMS, it's devilishly hard to get the damage results you need to blow it up). Discarding Rends (as they are quite hard to get), psycannons are glorified autocannons.

 

Also, by having mid-range weaponry, your deployment and time to engagement (ie when you actually start killing stuff) is dictated by your opponent, who can always reposition to be out of range. Having 48" guns is crucial to applying pressure early, and destroying or disabling key targets. Same reason Wolves won't go to war without Long Fangs, Grey Hunter meltaguns can't be everywhere.

 

It's a more aggressive style, and can rely more upon approaches, maneuvering, and terrain. I've always been of the opinion that Inquisitorial/Ecclesiarchy forces are more in your face/cityfight style combats than open field engagements.

 

Yeah, well Sisters are definitely in that camp (melta and flamer everywhere). Knights seem to be designed primarily to Deepstrike en-masse into the mid-field and advance from there whilst supplying dakka before the inevitable assault. The in-game reality is that Deepstrike is horribly dangerous, and Reserve rolls are always able to screw your plans. So, Knight players deploy normally, then discover their guns barely reach the middle of the table (mostly, Dreads and Razors are the obvious exemptions).

 

GK as a whole fire 24" on the move; since your troops and their respective transports will be mid-table anyway, why not take the assault cannon over the lascannon?

 

Yeah, but what if that's not what the enemy or mission calls for? You can see how only stocking up on mid-range limits your army. I typically spend about 2 turns just moving into range with Knights (Spearhead is the worst for this), while plinking away with the handful of units that can range the enemy (Vindicare Infiltrated forward, PsyDreads doing their thing).

 

(You should probably mutter "DAKKADAKKADAKKA" under your breath during your shooting phase)

 

Goes without saying :) I always pray to the God of Dakka (either Mork or Gork) before rolling to hit.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Actually, getting those Rends is harder than people imagine, especially when you're forced to remain stationary to get maximum dakka (TDA is usually only one or two squads at best, and only Paladins bring psycannons in significant amounts). Reach is a bigger issue than I think many people understand. Most tanks are happy to outrange 24" infantry, and Raiders usually commit under a smoke screen (and between extra armour and POTMS, it's devilishly hard to get the damage results you need to blow it up). Discarding Rends (as they are quite hard to get), psycannons are glorified autocannons.

Statistically speaking, I just ran the numbers again (As my original work is I think somewhere else) and I have to respectfully disagree completely.

 

Using a TL 'psycannon' vs a TL lascannon, the psycannon handily wins vs a Land Raider.

 

TL lascannon: .8889 hits per shooting phase, which result in 0.1482 glances and 0.1482 pens per shooting phase.

 

Tl 'psycannon' (or assault cannon w/ psybolt ammo): 3.5556 hits per shooting phase, only wounds a LR on a pen (rend, on a 6, etc), however generates .5927 pens per shooting phase. (3.5556 hits times 0.1667 odds of a 6)

 

If it is worth it to shoot a lascannon at a Land Raider, it is definitely worth it to shoot a 'psycannon' in heavy mode at a Land Raider, and vehicles always fire in heavy mode.

 

The only real victory here for the Land Raider is range. The 'psycannon' is roughly twice as effective, but has half the range. It does, however, perform really well against infantry too where as the lascannon does not.

 

I can also argue that due to range we should see more Land Raiders, psyflemen (which we do) and Storm Ravens with typhoon missile launchers... however people seem to be doing pretty well with the 24" as a general rule.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Statistically speaking, I just ran the numbers again (As my original work is I think somewhere else) and I have to respectfully disagree completely.

 

Using a TL 'psycannon' vs a TL lascannon, the psycannon handily wins vs a Land Raider.

 

TL lascannon: .8889 hits per shooting phase, which result in 0.1482 glances and 0.1482 pens per shooting phase.

 

Tl 'psycannon' (or assault cannon w/ psybolt ammo): 3.5556 hits per shooting phase, only wounds a LR on a pen (rend, on a 6, etc), however generates .5927 pens per shooting phase. (3.5556 hits times 0.1667 odds of a 6)

 

If it is worth it to shoot a lascannon at a Land Raider, it is definitely worth it to shoot a 'psycannon' in heavy mode at a Land Raider, and vehicles always fire in heavy mode.

 

The only real victory here for the Land Raider is range. The 'psycannon' is roughly twice as effective, but has half the range. It does, however, perform really well against infantry too where as the lascannon does not.

 

I think I didn't express myself well. I'm not contesting that a lascannon is worse than a psycannon. I'm simply saying, you won't be firing that psycannon for at least 2 turns usually, and if you do you have maybe one turn of firing (possibly at half output unless TDA, because you had to move into range sometimes) before it's too late. Also, not every vehicle is a Landraider. Against lighter armour, the lascannon is firing from Turn 1 and is more consistent in it's damage output. S7 vs S9 may not seem like a huge gulf, but when glances do so little in 5th (damn damage chart), getting those pens on more than just 6's is very handy.

 

You can run the numbers, but I'm not speaking from an efficiency standpoint really. I'm more talking about meta-game, where you need different tools for different tasks. Meltaguns are king of anti-tank, but only the most foolish mindlessly spam them and take nothing else (or Vulkan lists ;) ). As I tried to imply before, meltaguns can't be everywhere, neither can psycannon.

 

There is a further issue, one which every Knight army struggles with; we have more targets than squads in almost every scenario. Therefore, everytime we shoot psycannons at vehicle targets, our storm bolters and the psycannons are not being used against infantry. This is huge, because we don't have many units at any point level. Combat squads help a little in this regard, but that just makes it easier to isolate and destroy the psycannons (storm bolters don't worry mech).

 

By taking alternative units (like Dreads, Razorbacks, Henchmen squads), we can free up Knight units to shoot up infantry, or engage more vehicle targets than would otherwise be possible.

 

I can also argue that due to range we should see more Land Raiders, psyflemen (which we do) and Storm Ravens with typhoon missile launchers... however people seem to be doing pretty well with the 24" as a general rule.

 

Landraiders are insanely expensive for fire support, you can get something like 3 las/plas Razors for the price of just one.

Stormravens are likewise way too costly for just fire support, and putting an assault unit inside makes them too much of a fire magnet (melta immunity is nice but AV12 isn't that durable).

PsyDreads kinda prove my point, they're our Long Fangs. S8 autocannon isn't necessarily worse or better than psycannon, but it has the reach and that is what really counts. Turn 1 onwards, you are applying pressure to the enemy.

[*Furyou Miko]

If you spam assbacks it

 

G :devil:

 

Snerk. Can we really not do better than that for a shorthand?

[Chengar Qordath]

If you spam assbacks it

 

G :)

 

Snerk. Can we really not do better than that for a shorthand?

I've always been vaguely amused by the forum's choice of how to abbreviate anything to do with assault cannons. I guess some people really like assbacks equipped with twin-linked asscans.

[thade]

I don't know that you wouldn't be firing the TL-Assault Cannon right away; frankly, in a Pitched Battle, you can fire on Turn One unless there's ample hard cover and/or your opponent deploys within 6" of his/her own table edge. In those cases, the Lascannon - TL'd or not - is also going to have some trouble.

 

Additionally, the assault cannon (esp. with psyammo) is not only a threat to light and even heavy APCs; it's far more menacing to infantry units than a lascannon.

 

TL-Assault Cannons definitely have their uses.