are assault cannons worth it.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I just realized this morning that somehow I made a glaring math error (7 + 6 + 1 does not equal 15)... so there is a slight misquote in my earlier post.

 

Ahem.. against a Land Raider, a TL "psycannon" does 0.1975 glances and 0.3952 pens... however thankfully both of these numbers are still bigger than their TL lascannon counterpart.

 

I blame the results on Baby DPS ;)

 

@Recclusiarch Darius: I can see your argument there. Perhaps it's a local thing, or the tables upon which I've been playing normally where things are in range often enough that I haven't noticed any major issues. A combination of cover and maneuvering for the first turn or two, and strange setups can do a lot of wierd things to long range firepower that works in theory.

 

I think it seems to me that having TL "psycannons" on Razorbacks mitigates some of your points about psycannon fire being directed at vehicles negates the squads anti-infantry firepower (which is true!). By also having psycannons on the transports, the transport can shoot at a vehicle while the squad blazes away at a seperate target (sometimes the thing that used to be in said vehicle). There is definite use to a las/plas Razorback, I just see the "psycannon" version being a more universally useful vehicle (and my long time love affair with autocannons and grenade launchers on my Chimeras and ISTs points to my love of all around good weapons). Your points are valid though, I guess my brain just decided on going the other way :blink:

[*Furyou Miko]

Oh!

 

Sorry, Nikki, slightly off topic - where can I find the rules for the autocannon chimera?

[Something Wycked]

Also, by having mid-range weaponry, your deployment and time to engagement (ie when you actually start killing stuff) is dictated by your opponent, who can always reposition to be out of range.

Side note: if you allow your opponent to dictate your time to engagement, if you allow your opponent the ability to always reposition to be out of range, you're doing it wrong. :rolleyes: The whole point of tactics is to enforce your will on your opponent. If you can't make that happen with Razorbacks that only have 24" range, you might need to look at a different army makeup.

 

If you can make it happen, bravo! Keep sticking those psycannons to the enemies of the Imperium :ph34r:

[*Furyou Miko]

My opponent today attempted to do this to me. His Whirlwinds were 49" away from my Exorcists (Which have 48" range). He kept moving them 6" back every turn, because of course my infantry were closer to him than the Exos. So I kept pushing forward 6" a turn (in any case, I wanted to get away from the short table edges and the Threat of Shrike) while unloading (mostly ineffectually) Exorcist missiles into his scouts. Despite his attempts to 'dictate the battlefield' and my limited range (Sororitas effective combat range being about 8"), I managed to keep him on the back foot.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Oh!

 

Sorry, Nikki, slightly off topic - where can I find the rules for the autocannon chimera?

Imperial Armour Volume 2 - Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition :lol: Rules update available for DL off Forge World's website bringing it in line with current rule books (pretty much).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Autocannon chimeras are dirty. Just be glad they are BS3.

 

G :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I've always been vaguely amused by the forum's choice of how to abbreviate anything to do with assault cannons. I guess some people really like assbacks equipped with twin-linked asscans.

 

Bum jokes on a forum dedicated to toy soldiers? Perish the thought :lol:

 

I don't know that you wouldn't be firing the TL-Assault Cannon right away; frankly, in a Pitched Battle, you can fire on Turn One unless there's ample hard cover and/or your opponent deploys within 6" of his/her own table edge. In those cases, the Lascannon - TL'd or not - is also going to have some trouble.

 

Additionally, the assault cannon (esp. with psyammo) is not only a threat to light and even heavy APCs; it's far more menacing to infantry units than a lascannon.

 

TL-Assault Cannons definitely have their uses.

 

I must play a lot of Spearhead then, or just on boards which negate this. Could also be because I'm more of a defensive player. Also, I'm still very new to Razorbacks, so I like to play conservatively.

 

It's surprisingly hard to hide from 48" range weapons, especially if they're even partially mobile. Common problem for me is my regular BT opponent with Typhoon Speeders, hiding behind walls while firing the launcher around them. They don't move much until last turn, when they go for objectives and contest.

 

Not denying twin-psycannon (effectively) on a Razor is good, it's just not for me, cos I already have enough psycannon to suit my list.

 

@Recclusiarch Darius: I can see your argument there. Perhaps it's a local thing, or the tables upon which I've been playing normally where things are in range often enough that I haven't noticed any major issues. A combination of cover and maneuvering for the first turn or two, and strange setups can do a lot of wierd things to long range firepower that works in theory.

 

I think it seems to me that having TL "psycannons" on Razorbacks mitigates some of your points about psycannon fire being directed at vehicles negates the squads anti-infantry firepower (which is true!). By also having psycannons on the transports, the transport can shoot at a vehicle while the squad blazes away at a seperate target (sometimes the thing that used to be in said vehicle). There is definite use to a las/plas Razorback, I just see the "psycannon" version being a more universally useful vehicle (and my long time love affair with autocannons and grenade launchers on my Chimeras and ISTs points to my love of all around good weapons). Your points are valid though, I guess my brain just decided on going the other way

 

Yay, go me contradicting myself in my own argument B) . I'm not really disagreeing with you, I certainly see the merits, I just wonder whether the las/plas offers something we don't often see with Knights (ie Turn 1 firepower, and AP2 as well). I've only used Razors a few times now (it's hard to get games big enough to cram them in), so in all likelyhood I'm just doing it wrong.

 

Side note: if you allow your opponent to dictate your time to engagement, if you allow your opponent the ability to always reposition to be out of range, you're doing it wrong.

 

Have you played fast armies? Mech Eldar and Dark Eldar make my brain hurt with 36" movement everywhere. It's not usually their entire force, but it's perfectly possible to feint and keep people at arms length in 40k. It isn't necessarily due to failing as a general, it's just a consequence of weapon range being X and enemy movement being Y. We have an example in our own army, with personal teleporters. One moment, my Dreadknight is hiding behind a building, next he's magically behind their lines, shooting their dudemanz.

 

The whole point of tactics is to enforce your will on your opponent. If you can't make that happen with Razorbacks that only have 24" range, you might need to look at a different army makeup.

 

24" isn't that far man. Especially against more static or fast defensive armies, who are going to punish you for at least a turn until you get into decent firing positions. Remember, whether on vehicles or infantry, psycannons only have a 30" reach. If you opponent can backtrack 12" regularly, or you can't easily close on his position due to terrain or the dangers outweigh the rewards (ie charging an IG gunline with AV11 is pretty suicidal), you are going to suffer.

 

That said, you can box people in eventually, but timing is everything in this game. Every turn you're not in range is him not dying/taking damage.

 

My opponent today attempted to do this to me. His Whirlwinds were 49" away from my Exorcists (Which have 48" range). He kept moving them 6" back every turn, because of course my infantry were closer to him than the Exos. So I kept pushing forward 6" a turn (in any case, I wanted to get away from the short table edges and the Threat of Shrike) while unloading (mostly ineffectually) Exorcist missiles into his scouts. Despite his attempts to 'dictate the battlefield' and my limited range (Sororitas effective combat range being about 8"), I managed to keep him on the back foot.

 

:D A Marine player using Whirlwinds? You were kinda beating him before either of you set up. Even Thunderfires are a better choice, and they explode as soon as you look at them.

 

Autocannon chimeras are dirty. Just be glad they are BS3.

 

55pts for 2 BS3 autocannon shots: Eh

135 for 4 BS4 twin-linked S8 autocannon shots: Wow

 

Admittedly, an autocannon turret is better than the silly multi-laser they usually force you to use, but I wouldn't say its broken. Always a mystery why it's never cropped up in normal codices. I guess they don't want a glut of multi-laser turrets flooding eBay ;)

[Something Wycked]

Have you played fast armies? Mech Eldar and Dark Eldar make my brain hurt with 36" movement everywhere. It's not usually their entire force, but it's perfectly possible to feint and keep people at arms length in 40k. It isn't necessarily due to failing as a general, it's just a consequence of weapon range being X and enemy movement being Y. We have an example in our own army, with personal teleporters. One moment, my Dreadknight is hiding behind a building, next he's magically behind their lines, shooting their dudemanz.

Absolutely. One of my regular opponents is Mechdar, another is Destroyer-heavy Necrons. My GK force is 66-90% Interceptors and PTDK's, so I never have an issue with range because my mobility is as good or better than all my opponents :)

 

24" isn't that far man. Especially against more static or fast defensive armies, who are going to punish you for at least a turn until you get into decent firing positions.

If you play a traditional, not very mobile army. Meched up in traditional transports is not particularly mobile, especially when the expected lifespan for those transports is 2 turns. (Though the argument can be made that you've certainly reached midfield in those 2 turns, and that's all the range you need. As I'm about to point out...)

 

Remember, whether on vehicles or infantry, psycannons only have a 30" reach. If you opponent can backtrack 12" regularly, or you can't easily close on his position due to terrain or the dangers outweigh the rewards (ie charging an IG gunline with AV11 is pretty suicidal), you are going to suffer.

 

That said, you can box people in eventually, but timing is everything in this game. Every turn you're not in range is him not dying/taking damage.

I'm well aware of Psycannon range, thanks :P 24"/30" range is pretty huge on a 4'x6' table. If you get a unit positioned near the center of the board, you can cover 2/3 of the table with that one unit with its "not that far" range, and leave nowhere but behind LoS blocking terrain for your opponent to "backtrack" behind.

 

And if you're mobile enough, that backtracking doesn't do them any good anyway ^_^ Tactics, tactics, tactics; mobility, mobility, mobility. Enforce your will on your opponent, or they'll dictate the flow of battle :)

[*Furyou Miko]

actually, he put his Whirlwinds to very good use keeping my Seraphim and Command Squad Pinned. ^_^

 

His army was something like;

Kayvan Shrike

10 Vanguard Veterans w/Jumps (No idea what else they had, they only turned up on the last turn, on the wrong side of the board)

10 Scouts (5 Shotguns / 5 sniper rifles)

5 Scouts (sniper rifles+HB)

10 Scouts (BP+CCW)

LS Storm

2 Whirlwinds.

 

Overcosted or not, if his Van had showed up it could have won him the game. :)

[thade]

Whirlwinds are often under-estimated but have surprising uses - even against MEQ - when you take more than one. They're Ordnance Barrage so they're Pinning and get two dice, choose the best against armor...so if you're short on targets, whale on Rhinos. :lol:

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah but you are giving up two HS slots... they aren't all that awesome versus MEQ in my opinion. I can see the use of one.

 

G :huh:

[thade]

If you want to use WWs there are things that can go in the other slots to make up for whatever you might feel you're missing in this HS slots. They're anti-infantry, so you'll need anti-armor elsewhere...but that's not so weird, given the melta-spam meta in today's lists. They're kind of like very long range heavy bolter squads vs marines - S5, and a template that will cover 2-3 models minimum - with a bit of a kick against armor with that Ordnance die. While they are far less impressive than a Vindicator when you compare damage done, they also risk themselves far less than the Vindicator as they have exceptional range and can blind-fire from hard cover.

 

They're a nuisance: your opponent can opt to allocate something to take them out (and unless they're sporting MM Landspeeders, whatever they commit to that task has a bit of a hike) or whether their hits for the entire game. A Vindcator, by comparison, will roll out and probably kill something, only to take a face-full of melta fire for its trouble.

 

Finally, they're pretty cheap, so you will still have flexibility to take heavier-hitting stuff elsewhere.

 

I definitely recommend taking a pair (Lancaster's Square Law) at least, if you take any at all.

 

ADDENDUM: Apologies; this is grossly off-topic as WWs neither sport assault cannons, nor are they available in the GK book.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Absolutely. One of my regular opponents is Mechdar, another is Destroyer-heavy Necrons. My GK force is 66-90% Interceptors and PTDK's, so I never have an issue with range because my mobility is as good or better than all my opponents

 

Well I play mostly at 1.5k, larger games are hard to organise. So, lists like that simply aren't practical. I'm flat out fielding the basics, nevermind more esoteric builds.

 

If you play a traditional, not very mobile army. Meched up in traditional transports is not particularly mobile, especially when the expected lifespan for those transports is 2 turns. (Though the argument can be made that you've certainly reached midfield in those 2 turns, and that's all the range you need. As I'm about to point out...)

 

Which is Knights all over. Most of our units cannot move faster than 6" a turn, it's only rarer stuff that can. Mech requires you allocating points into transports, which given our predication to shoot things down to size (massed storm bolter and psycannon), means less turns firing (cos you're inside the Rhino etc). It's also harder to incorporate transports into an army with higher per model costs.

 

I feel like we're talking past eachother. I'm not disputing that fire and manoeuvre are things you need to do to win. What I'm saying is, sometimes you need other options, you can't just hope you'll be within 24" all the time. Longer reach affords you options. Hell, thats why PsyDreads are in virtually every army. If psycannons spam were all we needed to win, you wouldn't see Dreads at all.

 

I'm well aware of Psycannon range, thanks 24"/30" range is pretty huge on a 4'x6' table. If you get a unit positioned near the center of the board, you can cover 2/3 of the table with that one unit with its "not that far" range, and leave nowhere but behind LoS blocking terrain for your opponent to "backtrack" behind.

 

I play on a lot of heavy terrain boards (at least 2-3 tall buildings, plenty of infantry cover, lots of difficult terrain), so maybe on Planet Bowling Ball, YYMV. On paper, yes you cover X square inches of the board with your fire arcs. When you take into account actual LOS in a real game, cover saves, certain models being out of position to fire...it's not just a case of setting up in range and achieving perfect averages with your shooting. You're not fighting against a firing range of likely targets, your opponent is an active participant and is often going to position things in his favour (some people do it better than others obviously).

 

You also have to consider that Knights need to be moving forwards in some capacity (at least a turn, if not two), to get such coverage. Moving = less psycannon output, and the only units which don't notice are TDA (meaning one, maybe two units in the army). As I said before, some opponents are quite happy if you sit in the mid-range, unable to move because it means abandoning your terrain firebase (and hence giving up cover saves, difficult terrain slowing enemy assault units trying to intercept etc). Guard in particular are designed to do this to most other armies. Short of being very aggressive and Deepstriking/meching up heavily, I can see shootouts of that nature being quite heavily in your opponents favour.

 

And if you're mobile enough, that backtracking doesn't do them any good anyway Tactics, tactics, tactics; mobility, mobility, mobility. Enforce your will on your opponent, or they'll dictate the flow of battle

 

Except your mobility is pretty low. Again, certain Knight units are the exception, but I've yet to see mass Interceptor/Dreadknight armies actually fielded. It's a shame Interceptors weren't kept as Troops choices, but oh well.

 

Psycannons sort of force you into a static firebase style of play, unless you just bring TDA units (which is simply not viable in smaller games, where points are at such a premium). If you move, it halves your output. Storm bolter is the same regardless, but thats rather by the by.

 

actually, he put his Whirlwinds to very good use keeping my Seraphim and Command Squad Pinned

 

(facepalm) This is why old SoB worked so well, and the new ones are a half-finished mess of rules. Book of St Lucius totally negated this glaring Leadership issue the army still has. Good work getting rid of that crutch, GW!

 

Kayvan Shrike

10 Vanguard Veterans w/Jumps (No idea what else they had, they only turned up on the last turn, on the wrong side of the board)

10 Scouts (5 Shotguns / 5 sniper rifles)

5 Scouts (sniper rifles+HB)

10 Scouts (BP+CCW)

LS Storm

2 Whirlwinds.

 

:) :huh: As I mentioned, Sisters aren't exactly a good army now, but still...that is a terrible Marine list. He has literally no ranged anti-tank, and unless his Vanguard are packing powerfists and thunderhammers everywhere, he doesn't exactly have anything to intercept mech in melee either. Or large monsters, or heavy infantry...srsly what?

 

If you want to use WWs there are things that can go in the other slots to make up for whatever you might feel you're missing in this HS slots. They're anti-infantry, so you'll need anti-armor elsewhere...but that's not so weird, given the melta-spam meta in today's lists. They're kind of like very long range heavy bolter squads vs marines - S5, and a template that will cover 2-3 models minimum - with a bit of a kick against armor with that Ordnance die. While they are far less impressive than a Vindicator when you compare damage done, they also risk themselves far less than the Vindicator as they have exceptional range and can blind-fire from hard cover.

 

They're a nuisance: your opponent can opt to allocate something to take them out (and unless they're sporting MM Landspeeders, whatever they commit to that task has a bit of a hike) or whether their hits for the entire game. A Vindcator, by comparison, will roll out and probably kill something, only to take a face-full of melta fire for its trouble.

 

Finally, they're pretty cheap, so you will still have flexibility to take heavier-hitting stuff elsewhere.

 

I definitely recommend taking a pair (Lancaster's Square Law) at least, if you take any at all.

 

Well, on the plus side, if you're doing it right (not like the Shrike list above), adding some cheap Whirlys in Heavy for anti-infantry blasting isn't too bad. They have very low target priority for an opponent, and against non-Marines (power armour laughs it off sadly) they can be good for shelling an enemy's Troops off an objective. Kinda like Griffons in Guard armies. Not the best use of the slot (opportunity cost), but cheap and thus easily included (points cost and meta-game).

As a general rule though, there are better units in Heavy to field.

Auto-las Preds add to your Sternguard in Elite bringing lascannon, thus freeing up your Tactical core to take stuff like plasma cannons and melta.

Vindicators are probably going to be coming back into vogue, now that Draigowing is stomping across tables, laughing at melta-spam as they outrange or cover save/wound allocate it away.

[thade]

To be fair, I've already seen a few battle reports where Vanguard (in configurations I would deem irresponsible) have been tearing Draigo and his boys to pieces; not to mention Hammernators and a mean IC (Calgar, the Sanguinor, Grimnar) or just hails of plasma and lascannon fire have proven more than viable against D & Friends. Vindicators - again due to their close engagement range - will be the soaks for the wing's psycannon fire after they pop their shots off. Unless they luck out and either break or pin them, of course. Still, an effective counter-measure.

 

I wouldn't see the WW pair doing anything to Draigo Wing (esp. if they've got an apothecary) but if they're in the list it's a few more saves for them to take a turn.

[Something Wycked]

Well I play mostly at 1.5k, larger games are hard to organise. So, lists like that simply aren't practical. I'm flat out fielding the basics, nevermind more esoteric builds.

Esoteric? :)

 

This 1500 one has more Strikes in it, so my Interceptors+PTDK are only 59% of the list:

 

Malleus, TDA, Psycannon: 80

2x (10x Strikes; Hammer, Psybolts, 2x Psycannon), 1 Rhino: 540

2x (10x Interceptors: Hammer, Psybolts, 2x Psycannon): 620

Dreadknight; PT, HI, GS: 260

 

On the large view, the Strikes are the anvil to the Interceptors/PTDK hammer; on the small view, the Interceptors and PTDK alternate between being the hammer and anvil for each other. With their mobility, I can hit any enemy unit I want to, while the Strikes and Malleus anchor the important places on the board.

 

Which is Knights all over. Most of our units cannot move faster than 6" a turn, it's only rarer stuff that can. Mech requires you allocating points into transports, which given our predication to shoot things down to size (massed storm bolter and psycannon), means less turns firing (cos you're inside the Rhino etc). It's also harder to incorporate transports into an army with higher per model costs.

No, that's traditional list building all over. Its not particular to GKs. Mech does require you to allocate points into transports which reduces your firing turns, but you are not required to buy mech.

 

I feel like we're talking past eachother. I'm not disputing that fire and manoeuvre are things you need to do to win. What I'm saying is, sometimes you need other options, you can't just hope you'll be within 24" all the time. Longer reach affords you options. Hell, thats why PsyDreads are in virtually every army. If psycannons spam were all we needed to win, you wouldn't see Dreads at all.

We kind of are talking past each other. It seems like you're very, very focused on traditional list building :) You can not only hope that you'll be within 24" all the time, you can expect it. Better mobility affords you options that preclude the necessity for longer reach.

 

I play on a lot of heavy terrain boards (at least 2-3 tall buildings, plenty of infantry cover, lots of difficult terrain), so maybe on Planet Bowling Ball, YYMV. On paper, yes you cover X square inches of the board with your fire arcs. When you take into account actual LOS in a real game, cover saves, certain models being out of position to fire...it's not just a case of setting up in range and achieving perfect averages with your shooting. You're not fighting against a firing range of likely targets, your opponent is an active participant and is often going to position things in his favour (some people do it better than others obviously).

As do I. Most of my games are 50% covered by terrain :( Makes the games much more interesting when you have something to maneuver around other than the opposing army. You can lock down the firing lanes with your "short" ranged weapons through proper positioning. When your force is as mobile as mine is, I don't have models who are out of position to fire. ;) (Outside of the Strikes sitting on an objective, of course.)

 

You also have to consider that Knights need to be moving forwards in some capacity (at least a turn, if not two), to get such coverage. As I said before, some opponents are quite happy if you sit in the mid-range, unable to move because it means abandoning your terrain firebase (and hence giving up cover saves, difficult terrain slowing enemy assault units trying to intercept etc). Guard in particular are designed to do this to most other armies. Short of being very aggressive and Deepstriking/meching up heavily, I can see shootouts of that nature being quite heavily in your opponents favour.

On a 4'x6' table, with "standard" 6" to 12" deployment zones down each side, you need only one turn to be in position, two at the most. You're right that if your opponent wants you to sit at midfield you'll get wasted- not because our units aren't effective at midfield, but because you're playing to your opponent's strengths, playing to the tune of his battle plan, playing right into his hands. If your opponent won't be able to handle your units sitting at midfield, then sit them at midfield. But whatever you do, don't do what your opponent wants you to do. Tactics!

 

How do you think my high mobility army functions on a table with lots of terrain to hide behind? If I'm facing an army that can outshoot me, I can duck their shooting until I'm in range to wreck face up close. If I can outshoot them, I can stay at my best range, probably in cover, and then continue to outshoot them until the time is right to stomp them down. If you have the mobility advantage, you can dictate the terms of battle.

 

Except your mobility is pretty low. Again, certain Knight units are the exception, but I've yet to see mass Interceptor/Dreadknight armies actually fielded.

No, my mobility isn't pretty low. Your mobility is pretty low. ;) Its a shame you haven't seen an army like mine in action. You should try it sometime, its very liberating. :D

 

Psycannons sort of force you into a static firebase style of play

Only if you're playing Mathammer. :) My Interceptors' Psycannons perform just fine on the move. ^_^

[Freman Bloodglaive]

For 5 points turning heavy bolters into strength 6, 36" ranged weapons is pretty good value. They chew through armour 10 and 11 pretty easily (poor Necrons) and put a lot of wounds on infantry.

 

Assault cannons are great, but you have psycannons on the units so you don't really need to spend more points on the transport.

 

As a rule of thumb

 

5 Purifiers, one hammer (not on the Knight of the Flame) 2 halberds, 2 psycannon, heavy bolter razorback with psycannon bolts for 199 points is pretty good value. The Purifiers are best fighting outside their vehicle of course, but that's generally true of all the Grey Knights.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I agree the standard razorback with PSA is the way to go. Those assault cannons are pretty darn expensive.

 

G ;)

[nurglez]

actually, he put his Whirlwinds to very good use keeping my Seraphim and Command Squad Pinned. ^_^

 

His army was something like;

Kayvan Shrike

10 Vanguard Veterans w/Jumps (No idea what else they had, they only turned up on the last turn, on the wrong side of the board)

10 Scouts (5 Shotguns / 5 sniper rifles)

5 Scouts (sniper rifles+HB)

10 Scouts (BP+CCW)

LS Storm

2 Whirlwinds.

 

Overcosted or not, if his Van had showed up it could have won him the game. ^_^

 

slightly off topic but I played against an army just like this in throne of skulls with my Draigo wing, and it hurt, but was the most fun game I had over the weekend :)

 

Psycannon's are awesome, I'm used to them on paladins where a salvo of 4 of them regularly destroys landraider or puts wounds on tough units. However if I ran razor backs, i'd probably keep them cheap, so I can fit in more psycannon's and models on other squads, and only using them if I had spare points.