Idea for Renegades

[Kyrion]

I've always wanted to design my own chapter and thus contribute to the ever growing IA, but was constantly at war with myself with regards to the content and/or design of that chapter. Recently an idea came to me that, at first seemed a bit much, but the more I think about it, the more I like the sound of it. I recently read a book about the Dark Angels where one of The Fallen reveals that he had become the leader of a planet, and reorganized that planet's populace to be more self-reliant, militant, and over-all improved the efficiency of the place. He did so because he thought that was the right thing to do, or, that by doing so, he was fulfilling his duty to protect humanity to the best of his abilities.

 

Heresy I hear some say. Quite so, but at the same time, maybe it is just what the Imperium needs. I wanted to create a chapter that had come into contact with a similar minded Fallen, and so eventually become renegades while still loyal to the Imperium. This chapter would take control of the governing and running of planets in order to better organize and lead the people they are also responsible for protecting. I haven't dealved into their doctrines or background other than that, just something I wanted to run by everyone to see if the idea hold's water or not.

[Small Far Away]

I like it. The idea of a chapter that was loyal to humanity rather than the Imperium has always exisited in my mind.

 

I think that this planet would have to be in the back end of somewhere though, because if it was in the middle of the Imperium, you might just have the Inquisition come knocking on your door.

[Shinzaren]

The problem with this idea is that, while cool, it relies on the premise of your world not being discovered. If your tithes are late, you're all dead. If a disgruntled former governor alerts the =][=, you're dead. If the world doesn't supply its Guard levies, you're dead. In all of these scenarios you don't die alone either. The world dies with you. The idea of taking over a world and reorganizing it and making it better is a great short term goal, but in the long run, you will be found out, and no one world can hold against the might of the entire Imperium. If it somehow manages to win the actual battles on the planet, the threat of Exterminatus means that eventually, no matter what, you're all going to die. Reorganizing a planet and succeeding from the Imperium is always going to end badly. Even if your world is 'better', if it doesn't obey the Inquisition, worship the Emperor, and contribute to the galaxy, you are dead.

 

However, if you are simply reorganizing the planet's governance and hierarchy I think you're good. Wouldn't even have to go renegade to do it. Just compare Macragge and Fenris. Both worlds are loyal worlds, accepted by the Imperium, and both are radically different in their organization and beliefs. Generally the Inqusition and the Imperium will leave you alone as long as the populace is loyal to the Emperor, supplies their tithes and Guard levies, and generally doesn't do anything stupid. beyond that, the planets of the Imperium hold no set mold, barring the Forgeworlds. Even Industrial worlds vary from world to world, the same as Agri-worlds, Hive-Worlds, or Garden Planets. Governing a planet isn't typically the role Astartes play, but precedent exists, and as long as you aren't going power mad you'll be fine.

[Octavulg]

The problem with this idea is that, while cool, it relies on the premise of your world not being discovered. If your tithes are late, you're all dead. If a disgruntled former governor alerts the =][=, you're dead. If the world doesn't supply its Guard levies, you're dead. In all of these scenarios you don't die alone either. The world dies with you. The idea of taking over a world and reorganizing it and making it better is a great short term goal, but in the long run, you will be found out, and no one world can hold against the might of the entire Imperium. If it somehow manages to win the actual battles on the planet, the threat of Exterminatus means that eventually, no matter what, you're all going to die. Reorganizing a planet and succeeding from the Imperium is always going to end badly. Even if your world is 'better', if it doesn't obey the Inquisition, worship the Emperor, and contribute to the galaxy, you are dead.

 

To be fair, it would take a while to notice (centuries, even). The problem is that when it was noticed, the response would likely be much as Shinzaren predicted.

[Kyrion]

I was thinking about having them do so in secret, setting up a shadow government so that anybody visiting will see a version of the standard setup with planetary governor, pdf, arbites, and so on, but the marines are the ones really running the show. I agree that eventually the Imperium would probably find out which means everything would have to continue in regards to tithes and guard regiments. Eventually, as the chapter's influence spreads, perhaps they could eventually be a little more visible, but not yet. Try to gather as much power about the chapter as possible until outright war would result in, at best, a pyrric victory for the Empire.

 

I still want my chapter to be utterly loyal and the people to follow the Imperial Cult as laid out by the Ecclesiarchy, just run by space marines who are clearly much better at keeping their priorities straight and maintaining long term goals.

 

In my mind, for the Imperium to ever have a shred of hope at surviving, let alone growing, the astartes probably need to take a greater role in governance.

[bilbo7788]

I like it. The idea of a chapter that was loyal to humanity rather than the Imperium has always exisited in my mind.

 

Remind me of the Soul Drinkers... and the Salamanders ! As always heresy and exemplarity are separated only by Inquisitorial judgement...

[G3rman]

HERETIC!!!!

 

YOUR WORLDS WILL BURN, YOUR BROTHERS KILLED, YOUR GENESEED QUARANTINED, YOUR RECORDS FORGOTTEN!

ANYONE WHO ALIGNS WITH A FALLEN WILL SEE THEIR OWN DEATH AT THE HANDS OF THE DARK ANGELS!

 

(Couldn't resist as an old DA player.)

 

Prepare for a nasty visit from DA and their Interrogator-Chaplains if you choose this path, as they would destroy your entire chapter to ensure the knowledge of the Fallen would be kept secret.

 

And no, the Inquisition would not find out. They'd be suspicious, but just blame it on being lost to the warp after a couple decades.

[Shinzaren]

Why would the Inquisition not find out, but the Dark Angels would? If a whole planet secedes from the Imperium, the Inquisition will be the first to investigate and determine the source of the problem. They wouldn't just blame it on being lost in the Warp. The would Inquire, and once they found out that your chapter lead the planet from the Emperor's Light, they would destroy them and the world, Dark Angels be damned.

 

Also, the idea of Dark Angels destroying the entire chapter is a bit extreme. While it may be possible, the idea that the Imperium as a whole didn't notice two chapters of Space Marines duking it out over a planet is a bit absurd. Even if the Dark Angels went man for man against this chapter that had contact with the Fallen and won, the losses and injuries of a campaign like that would be almost beyond recovery. When 1000 Space Marines fight 1000 Space Marines, the margin of victory is tiny, the casualties on both sides horrendous, and fallout for the victors would be terrible. Even with the Dark Angels calling in all their successors with knowledge of the Fallen to help, the battle is still going to HUGE. The Inquisition would notice and ask questions about a deployment of that magnitude.

[Shinzaren]

Try to gather as much power about the chapter as possible until outright war would result in, at best, a pyrric victory for the Empire.

As far as the Imperium is concerned, there is no such thing as a pyrrhic victory when discussing traitorous worlds and heretic Space Marine chapters. The ends always justify the means, regardless of the cost in lives. If they have to sacrifice a billion guardsmen to bring you down, they will make that move without hesitating, because the consequences of not destroying you are far too great. If one planet secedes from the Imperium without punishment, there is nothing stopping others from following suit. That is why the response to planets turning away from the Emperor is so extreme and so violent. It has to be for the Imperium to survive.

 

I still want my chapter to be utterly loyal and the people to follow the Imperial Cult as laid out by the Ecclesiarchy, just run by space marines who are clearly much better at keeping their priorities straight and maintaining long term goals.

See, now this is fine. You are basically establishing a Macragge type scenario where the worlds follow the Emperor, pay their tithes, and supply their Guard levies; they just do it much more efficiently and organized than other worlds, because the marines have zero time for politics or BSing. That wouldn't even get you in trouble, as long as you weren't commanding Guard or the Navy, nor turning the populace from the Ecclesiarchy.

[G3rman]

Losing contact with a planet for a few months would not raise too many flags in the Inquisition, do you have any idea how messed up their administratum and bureaucracy is? They lose track of entire planets at a time with the loss of papers on Terra.

 

And if the DA had to take out the entire chapter, you can bet if necessary they would call their successors to support them.

 

In BT lore, an entire crusade was lost after capturing and eventually handing over a fallen to the DA. They were destroyed to keep the secret.

 

If necessary, they would take out a chapter or at least the ones who knew about the fallen (upper echelons; first contact troops). I'll admit its not often that chapters are lost, but with all the bad things that happen in the 41st millennium, its not impossible to explain/cover it up.

 

And you can bet the DA won't hold back to do it.

[Shinzaren]

Losing contact with a planet for a few months would not raise too many flags in the Inquisition, do you have any idea how messed up their administratum and bureaucracy is? They lose track of entire planets at a time with the loss of papers on Terra.

My issue was not with a planet being AWOL for a couple months. I was saying that if a planet stopped paying its tithes, stopped its Guard levies, and broke contact with the Imperium, the Inquisition would handle it. Not the Dark Angels. Why would the Dark Angels even be involved? Yes he mentioned contact with a Fallen, not every contact with a Fallen comes to the Dark Angels, or they would have caught and eliminated them all by now.

 

And if the DA had to take out the entire chapter, you can bet if necessary they would call their successors to support them.

Perhaps, but destroying an entire chapter would cause HUGE suspicion, far more than the DA would want. Even with their supporters and successors, it would be a massive battle and the Inquisition would get in involved. The Dark Angels are not omnipotent. Eventually even they are accountable to the Inquisition. Isolated incidents and a missing Inquisitor or two they can sweep under the rug. The complete genocide of an entire chapter would see them thrown into untold problems.

 

In BT lore, an entire crusade was lost after capturing and eventually handing over a fallen to the DA. They were destroyed to keep the secret.

That crusade consisted one ship, not an armada. Using this as a example doesn't make the point about the DA being Chapter killing tough guys. While the DA are powerful, the Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf was an isolated incident consisting of one BT Strike Cruiser against a fleet of DA vessels. While it does show that the DA are willing to do just about anything to recover a Fallen, I stand by my case that the repercussions of destroying an entire chapter without sanction is more than even the DA can bear. I reiterate that they are not omnipotent or infallible.

 

If necessary, they would take out a chapter or at least the ones who knew about the fallen (upper echelons; first contact troops). I'll admit its not often that chapters are lost, but with all the bad things that happen in the 41st millennium, its not impossible to explain/cover it up.

 

And you can bet the DA won't hold back to do it.

Nearly every incidence of an entire chapter being lost has an explanation and people know what happened. Necron Tomb world, Ork Waagh, Tyranid Fleet, Black Crusade, what have you. The battle to destroy a fighting force of a Chapter's size and caliber makes waves. People will investigate and they will find what happened. There are, I believe, 7 total chapters making up the Unforgiven. If all of them are present in one area and three days later the remains of a loyal chapter are found completely wiped out, people will know. Even with 7:1 odds, the chapter the DA are after will put up a fight. The idea that the Dark Angels are simply going to walk in, annihilate them, and leave is a bit far-fetched. Even attempting to destroy only those knowledgeable of the Fallen would require the full chapter to die, because how could the DA know who knew and who didn't? Besides the first rule of genocide is that there is always one survivor. Especially in the case of Space Marines who are insanely hard to kill. I'm not saying the Dark Angels wouldn't try or even succeed. I am saying there would be severe consequences and terrific losses. Not to mention that is all based on the theory that someone told the Dark Angels before the Inquisition, which is unlikely.

[G3rman]

Its obvious that we are both against each others opinion, but the simple truth is that the DA would mess up this chapter if they even got hint of the word 'Fallen'.

 

With the logic of 41st millennium, I believe that anything can happen including a disappearance of a chapter.

 

You underestimate the DA resolve to their goal, they would rather die in the attempt of righting their wrongs than just leave a chapter alone because it was a significant threat.

[Shinzaren]

You misunderstand. I know they would mess them up. This chapter would die, no doubt. But I am saying the repercussions would be SUPER severe. Maybe too severe for the DA to handle. That is all.

[Kyrion]

I think the biggest difference with my chapter is that this would be a slow progression of subversion and realignment. Initially business would continue as normal, only space marines in charge behind the scenes. As more worlds fall under the chapter's protection, they begin to take control of more aspects of society, namely the training and organizing of the guard and naval levies. The idea being that, even if someone finds out, the chapter would be able to call on the resources of multiple systems to defend themselves and their people against those who think the space marines should not be in charge.

 

Also, Macragge is run by a republican government made up of senators and elected officials. The Ultras only protect and guide, not control.

 

I really cannot stress enough how hard the chapter would work to keep their plans secret for the good of everyone involved. Not like they are blatantly challenging the Imperium. It is a slow, methodical, almost surgical process to take a planet, subvert the government, reorganize everything, and then continue on without anybody noticing.

[G3rman]

Okay, now you are just being silly.

 

Your chapter would be often requested to send in Geneseed tithe by the mechanicum, as well as have visits from inquisitors for inspection of the chapter or the home planet. The second you take over a planet to make your own little empire then flags will be raised when the Imperium starts to not get its money.

 

Having your own little empire is a nice fantasy idea, but in practice it wouldn't work. You'd be destroyed and your chapter name would go down in history for making trouble with the Imperium and getting destroyed by your brother space marines.

[ChaplainMathreyn]

Quite so, but at the same time, maybe it is just what the Imperium needs. I wanted to create a chapter that had come into contact with a similar minded Fallen, and so eventually become renegades while still loyal to the Imperium. This chapter would take control of the governing and running of planets in order to better organize and lead the people they are also responsible for protecting. I haven't dealved into their doctrines or background other than that, just something I wanted to run by everyone to see if the idea hold's water or not.

 

There is ALOT wrong with the Imperium of Man... That is why I love it. It's like a giant teetering old house, built on rotting foundations, yet is so massive, and so paranoid that it simply cannot fix what is slowly becoming untenable... So, it simply exists to exist... It continues to drive, relentlessly forwards with no regard towards anything else but itself...

 

Personally, I don't like 'utopias', or 'The Imperium is broke, so we're gonna fix it!' ideas... Plus... It's the Administratum, an Entire massive bureaucracy; If they aren't squeezing out every little tidbit they can from a planet Already, Space Marines aren't going to do it... It's a galaxy spanning group of number munchers... You think your taxes are bad, and government tax service anal, just imagine it on a planetary scale... -.- My god...

 

I can Not see a Space Marine as an advisor... "What the hell do you mean you're population can't work 23 hours a day?"... "Yeah... We're not god-men... Sorry..." ... Nor do I want my Space Marine doing what my certified personal accountant should be doing, either... "By the Emperor! You wrote off your Dog as a dependent!? How dare you!" *Bolter to the face*

 

They destroy stuff, they don't re-organize stuff. They blow the hell out of it, crush it, and move on, leaving the paltry clean-up to lesser humans. You break it, and then move on. The Imperial Guard, and the Administratum then move in to administrate.

 

Other than that, they also sound like the Alpha Legion... Let's sneak in, subvert, then cause all hells of Chaos when the time is right...

 

However... I'd like to see something done where, under the Guise of "hunting the disgusting Fallen", and chapter of the Unforgiven begins actually trying to find out more about their parent's, the Dark Angels, terrible, horrible secrets... That'd be cool.

[Calgar 2.0]

Quite so, but at the same time, maybe it is just what the Imperium needs. I wanted to create a chapter that had come into contact with a similar minded Fallen, and so eventually become renegades while still loyal to the Imperium. This chapter would take control of the governing and running of planets in order to better organize and lead the people they are also responsible for protecting. I haven't dealved into their doctrines or background other than that, just something I wanted to run by everyone to see if the idea hold's water or not.

 

There is ALOT wrong with the Imperium of Man... That is why I love it. It's like a giant teetering old house, built on rotting foundations, yet is so massive, and so paranoid that it simply cannot fix what is slowly becoming untenable... So, it simply exists to exist... It continues to drive, relentlessly forwards with no regard towards anything else but itself...

 

Personally, I don't like 'utopias', or 'The Imperium is broke, so we're gonna fix it!' ideas... Plus... It's the Administratum, an Entire massive bureaucracy; If they aren't squeezing out every little tidbit they can from a planet Already, Space Marines aren't going to do it... It's a galaxy spanning group of number munchers... You think your taxes are bad, and government tax service anal, just imagine it on a planetary scale... -.- My god...

 

I can Not see a Space Marine as an advisor... "What the hell do you mean you're population can't work 23 hours a day?"... "Yeah... We're not god-men... Sorry..." ... Nor do I want my Space Marine doing what my certified personal accountant should be doing, either... "By the Emperor! You wrote off your Dog as a dependent!? How dare you!" *Bolter to the face*

 

They destroy stuff, they don't re-organize stuff. They blow the hell out of it, crush it, and move on, leaving the paltry clean-up to lesser humans. You break it, and then move on. The Imperial Guard, and the Administratum then move in to administrate.

 

Other than that, they also sound like the Alpha Legion... Let's sneak in, subvert, then cause all hells of Chaos when the time is right...

 

However... I'd like to see something done where, under the Guise of "hunting the disgusting Fallen", and chapter of the Unforgiven begins actually trying to find out more about their parent's, the Dark Angels, terrible, horrible secrets... That'd be cool.

 

I disagree. The Fallen are products of the Heresy, and they would show that side of themselves. They are shown advising Imperial Army forces throughout the series. They also stay in orbit, to watch the compliance process after their conquests. It makes sense, that since these particular Fallen aren't Chaos, that they would build up the planet's society, to a point that would quash the ideas of rejoining the Imperium, who the Fallen would still feel bitter about "betraying" them.

[ChaplainMathreyn]

Maybe... Did the Legions act as Administrators during the crusades?

 

Also... For all intents and purposes, The Fallen, are Chaos... While I can see what they're doing, Imperial wise, it's black-and-white... Also... I don't see the Fallen doing anything with regards to "Hah hah! Now that This planet is subverted, we're one step closer to... [insert Fiendish unknown plan here]"... I think it's more of a stick in the eye against the Dark Angels... "Hey, dress wearers! We're over here... " - Dare sort of thing... I doubt they have any altruistic intentions in mind...

 

I still don't think the idea is feasible, and looks very Alpha Legiony... Alpha Legion with abit of the old "No, no, We're totally good guys! We're here to help you!" thrown in...

 

Essentially, I think the Fallen do it to taunt... Not to empire build... I think they're to separated, and selfish, to cooperate on that magnitude...

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Its plausible, but, I dont think you can pass them of as a chapter.

 

1) Only the HLoT can decree a Chapter, so, you are not an official chapter based on your premise as your a collection of marines

2) Too few Marines, again, you wont have a 1000 Loyalist Fallen on a planet, maybe 100 a warband would be a better term to use

3) No Apothecaries to turn them into Marines, Pre-Heresy Apoths do not have the knowledge, otherwise Bile would not be so important (I may be wrong)

 

 

Now, you can have them as the planets rulers, or a group of them running the show from behind the shadows. As long as they supply the Imperium when necessary with troops/money/goods/whatever else, you will be fine. Keep them worshiping the Emperor and that, too, is fine as the Church wont investigate for Heresy. I always like the idea of loyalist Fallen, still traitors, but, loyalist pathos, like Astelan, is always nice to read.

 

Your worry is the DA Legion rocking up on your door step, eventually their network of spies/agents/assassins/servants/followers/anyone else they have including Inquisitors will find out something, someone will link something and...well, its of to the Rock. The Inquisitor who is their ally for other reasons will order an exterminatus and a heretical cult will be destroyed. Bear this in mind, what would happen? Fallen, if they hunker down in one place, tend to die quickly, though, if they hide they have a longer chance at survival. Also, whats their relationship with Cypher? How do you view him? Loyal? Traitor? Somewhere in between? These are many questions you have to think about.

 

This, however, is a really good premise, and one ive been looking into myself, so, good luck, ill be watching thi closely to help you out with ideas

[Calgar 2.0]

Maybe... Did the Legions act as Administrators during the crusades?

 

Also... For all intents and purposes, The Fallen, are Chaos... While I can see what they're doing, Imperial wise, it's black-and-white... Also... I don't see the Fallen doing anything with regards to "Hah hah! Now that This planet is subverted, we're one step closer to... [insert Fiendish unknown plan here]"... I think it's more of a stick in the eye against the Dark Angels... "Hey, dress wearers! We're over here... " - Dare sort of thing... I doubt they have any altruistic intentions in mind...

 

I still don't think the idea is feasible, and looks very Alpha Legiony... Alpha Legion with abit of the old "No, no, We're totally good guys! We're here to help you!" thrown in...

 

Essentially, I think the Fallen do it to taunt... Not to empire build... I think they're to separated, and selfish, to cooperate on that magnitude...

 

Not all Fallen fell to Chaos. There are really two factions within the Fallen. These are the non-chaosy renegades, suchas Astelan if I'm not mistaken, and The Chaos warbands.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Can have up to three factions, Chaos, Loyalist and Renegade/Mercenary