Legion Sizes

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

It's stated that by the end of the Great Crusade close to two million worlds had been claimed by the Imperium.

That is a tremendous accomplishment for a crusade lasting only 203(roughly) years.

And the Space Marine Legions are what made the Emperor's vision a reality. However, the actual numbers of Space Marines in the Legions are extremely low.

100,000 Marines per Legion is a tremendously small figure given what was required of them.

 

If you divide the two million worlds by twenty Legions(I'm keeping Legions II and XI in for simplicity) you get one hundred thousand worlds per Legion.

If you take that and divide it by two hundred(Rounding down for simplicity) years you get five hundred worlds per Legion per year.

Even if Space Marines were involved in conquering only half of these worlds it's still two hundred and fifty worlds a year.

And what the Black Library has shown us is that Legions did not move even remotely that fast. And even if they could, they would suffer completely unsustainable attrittion.

I can't imagne even the Ultramarines with their tremendous roster of 250,000+ Marines conquering 250 worlds in a year. The attrition would be just too high. I know the Imperial Army is there for numbers and footslogging, however the fluff has always presented the Legiones Astartes as the driving force of the Great Crusade. So, for that to be true how could they have survived after than the first year of the crusade?

 

The Word Bearers when they went on their great campaign as a total Legion after Monarchia conquered(if I'm wrong about the numbers please correct me) seven worlds in seven years. And that was the Legion on a rampage so to speak. If that is the highest rate that a total Legion was able to conquer, how did the crusade progress at all?

For example, the Interex held off the entire World Eater and Sons of Horus Legions for months. They were effectivley regular humans with an STC against 200,000 Marines.

I simply do not see how the Crusade could've happened with the numbers that GW states as fact. Given that many of the

legions appear to be understrength, The Emperor's Children and The Thousand Sons, not to mention two of the Legions being...Deleted, I just don't see how the numbers work on any level.

[Legatus]

I believe the Great Crusade accounted for about a million worlds, since that is usually the number of worlds given for the current Imperium.

 

And the Legions used to be even smaller. They used to be 10,000 Marines strong. And that used to be enough.

 

If you assume that Space Marines were responsible for conquering half of the 1,000,000 worlds, then that would be 25,000 worlds per Legion, and 125 worlds per Legion per year. Since each Legion rouchly consists of ten Great Companies of a thousand Marines, each such Great Company therefor would have had to conquer 12.5 worlds per year. All they really need to do is break the back of any resistance on that world, and then they are basically done, since the world would then usually surrender, or the Marines could turn the world over to the Imperial Army for occupation and conversion.

The 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines had a story where three companies (= 300 Marines) of White Panthers took an average defended world in about two weeks. And they didn't even stop after having destroyed the command centres, they even went on to dismantle the armed forces entirely. So apparently it should be quite possible for an entire Chapter or Great Company of Space Marines to effectively conquer a well defended world in under a month. So, everything would check out of Legions were 10,000 Marines strong. No problem there.

 

However, then you add "Black Library", and suddenly you get stories about entire Legions needing years to conquer certain worlds. So then "Black Library" attempts to fix that problem by making Space Marine Legion 100,000 Marines strong instead. Never mind that this would not account for years of fighting on a single world either. Black Library had essentially changed the Space Marine Legion sizes to fix the problem it itself had created, while the Codices that had been published throughout 5th Edition had still refered to the 10,000 strong Legions.

 

So, no, 100,000 Space Marines per Legion is not too few. Even 10,000 per Legion was not too few, untill, of course, you make up stories where 10,000 are too few.

[G3rman]

Well the short answer is they don't have to add up, its GW's fluff license. Besides, there are plenty of unseen variables that could better explain it.

 

For example, not all worlds or systems had to be fought over.

 

Many surrendered or willingly joined with the Imperium upon the arrival of an Expeditionary Fleet, who would move on after leaving a garrison of Imperial Army. Others fighting moved quickly and they were conquered in days or weeks.

 

Most of the well known battles are because they were the large ones, but that doesn't mean it was uniform throughout the Crusade.

 

Also keep in mind that HH began before the Crusade was totally finished, so many more human worlds may not have been re-united during the civil war.

 

And the legions would often split their forces among Expeditionary Fleets to gain more ground, and if a 41M Chapter of 1,000 marines can handle most enemies of man, I think a detachment of 5-10k marines with Imperial Army support can handle a system of planets within a reasonable amount of time.

 

Perhaps you are overthinking things, or just not giving the legions the credit they deserve. The Primarchs and the Emperor were genius tacticians after all.

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

It was in the Collected Visions that stated that there were two million worlds in the Imperium at the end of the Great Crusade.

I agree with you completely that if they did take years to conquer worlds than it's impossible for the Crusade to have been sucesfull. That's primarily why I'm so confused. I can't rectify the conflicting information in my head. (perhaps I should join Tzeentch?) :)

[Octavulg]

And, of course, there's the fact that a lot of 40K worlds just wouldn't have much in the way of a military. I think most folks'd have a hard time stretching the reconquest of a feral world out much past lunchtime if they had a company or two of Space Marines. :)

 

A company or so of Space Marines is enough to reconquer a planet 'today', so presumably a 10,000 strong Legion could have reconquered about a hundred planets at once. Call it fifty, just to be on the safe side. For each one that takes extra marines, there's probably another that just capitulates, or that takes only a squad, or that just falls really quick. A hundred thousand strong legion could thus recapture five hundred planets at once, meaning that each battlegroup would have about two years to conquer each world.

 

A 10,000 strong legion would have about six months to conquer each world.

 

That's a pretty reasonable rate.

 

If you up it to two million worlds, then it's one year and three months, respectively, which is still downright reasonable.

[Sons of Horus]

Not all worlds were conquered by the astartes. In fact, most were conquered by the Imperial Army. Most people grow up and die without ever seeing an astartes.

[Guest Azeikel]

Personally I think the claims are fairly reasonable. It mentions that two million worlds had been claimed by the Imperium but not that they were populated. In our star system alone we have nine worlds but only one is populated. Thus the Imperium could gain multiple worlds at once with only one conflict. You also have to remember that they didn't just conquer one world at a time. When they came up against empires (like the afore mentioned interex) all they had to do was defeat the empire and they would gain more than one system in one go (a reasonable sized empire would have 5-10 worlds? over several systems). Once the enemy's army is defeated the Astartes can move on leaving behind the Imperial Army for pacification purposes. Also when they came across a new planet which was inhabited with humans they gave them two options; fight us or join us. Due to this many worlds may have entered the Imperium without any fighting required at all.

 

Thus personally I believe the idea that the Imperium controlled two million worlds at the end of the Great Crusade is reasonable as they would not have had to fight for every single one of those worlds and by defeating empires they would have gained control of vast swathes of space in one go.

[Iron Lord]

Not all worlds were conquered by the astartes. In fact, most were conquered by the Imperial Army.

 

In the present day, the Imperial Guard do a lot of the conquering- but from what I can tell, the Imperial Army was only an adjunct to the Astartes.

[Grimdarkness]

The crusade was 300 old years before the event's of the HH IIRC maybe 250.

[Iron Lord]

The usual figure in the HH novels is "two hundred years"- though that's probably round figures.

[Sturnn]

Legions sizes were from 100.000 to 250.000 and as far as we know, Ultramarines were the largest ( In First Heretic it was admited, that Ultramarines take astartes from 2 lost legions ). Now, with that large number of Astartes, we can make statement that one company was about 1000 warriors at least. Many Expeditionary Fleets included one, maye two companies of Astartes with large support of Imperial Army and sometimes Titan Legios. Other Fleets were only Imperial Army based fleets. Other only Mechanicus. So is see no problem in conquering some many worlds in such short period of time. Take Emperor's Children for example - they conquered Laer in one month time, where they were facing highly advanced alien race. In many many worlds were only humans with low level of technology or with will to join Imperium without fight.

[Iron Lord]

Legions sizes were from 100.000 to 250.000 and as far as we know, Ultramarines were the largest ( In First Heretic it was admited, that Ultramarines take astartes from 2 lost legions ).

 

Actually- the author stated that this was entirely Word Bearer speculation, rather than fact.

 

One issue with conquering a galaxy- transit times. If you send one fleet to one sector, with enough forces to conquer every world (but all concentrated onto a few ships) how long does it take to visit and conquer 1000-odd worlds within a 200x200x200 light year cube?

[Captain Idaho]

Re-settlement of dead worlds/worlds without Human civilisation is another example of "making up the numbers" which the Space Marines didn't conquer. Legion fleet passes habitable world, sends a scout team to assess it and doesn't even bother to change course. They then notify the fledgling Imperium and a colony ship is sent to the planet.

 

Easy win with minimal Legion resources spent.

 

Another thing to remember is we have stories of Legions being in a system causing rogue planets to capitulate based upon mere reputation. Another easy win.

[greatcrusade08]

In First Heretic it was admited, that Ultramarines take astartes from 2 lost legions

 

id like to clear this up though in TFH it wasnt stated as anything close to fact, infact it was two marines talking and one suggests to the other it was possible, at which point his superior tells him hes wrong and its all water cooler gossip.

it has been canon from the very beginning that thier numbers is due to having a solid recruitment base (with high turnover) and being so 'efficient' as to minimise casualties.

[Sturnn]

Ok, maybe statement was too strong.

But it doesn't change fact, that conquering some much planet was possible. From names of Expedition Fleets in all HH books we can be sure that there were hundreds or even thousand such Expeditions Fleets, so what's the problem?

Time here is no argument, maybe if they had to travel with convencional speed but not with warp jumps...Look how fast Garo was able to travel from Istvaan to regions close enough to Terra that Dorn could intercept him. Other fact is that this Fleets were heading directly to regions where some signs of life were spotted by scouts, not visiting all planets on their way.

[chaplainmeliadus]

"Sir, there's another M class planet coming into augur range. No signs of life or technology."

 

"That's the fourteenth today. Add it to the list, number one."

 

Repeat ad nauseum.

[[TA]Typher]

The simple answer is that the Dark Angels carried the other legions.

[Sturnn]

"Sir, there's another M class planet coming into augur range. No signs of life or technology."

 

"That's the fourteenth today. Add it to the list, number one."

 

Repeat ad nauseum.

 

Something like that. They added such planets to maps and let colonisation fleets to take this worlds.

[greatcrusade08]

horus fleet had its own scout elements, when he chose which system of worlds to go conquer (becuase sometime its several worlds at once) he had all the information laid out.

which systemswere inhabited, what level of technology etc.

planets that had no life would be catalogued and given over to settlement fleets, and given how many planets are out there youd expect te number of 'empty' planets to far exceed the number of inhabited ones

[Sviox]

I would imagine that the worlds closer to Terra would have had less resistance (at least in form of xenos) and maybe even tighter settlements (i.e. 'nations' and trade networks consisting of several sol systems) etc. Also considering the huge quantity of imperial army (not astartes) and the amount of supplies/weaponry/ships required, there must have been plenty of willingly joining planets at the very start of the crusade. Since the books cover mostly the last 30 years of the crusade taking place at the outer rim of the galaxy away from the core worlds that are more tightly packed together, the whole amount of conquered planets starts to make sense to me at least.

[Studio Silvernale]

To my understanding, Lorgar was able to bring "numerous" worlds into the Imperium with his oratory alone.

[Iron Lord]

Maybe the "10,000 man legions" represent the start of the crusade- with the Emperor setting out with 200,000 men, and by the "present day" of the Heresy books, some 200 years later, the legion sizes have increased to an average of 100,000 each?

[Sturnn]

From beggining Legios were 100-200 k soldiers, don't know where u find information that was 10.000 astartes per legion. Some were fewer, like Emperor's Children but they rebuild their strenght.

[Captain Idaho]

From beggining Legios were 100-200 k soldiers, don't know where u find information that was 10.000 astartes per legion. Some were fewer, like Emperor's Children but they rebuild their strenght.

 

That was their original size from time immorial (2nd edition and maybe even Rogue Trader but that was before my time).

[Vodunius]

Actually Codex: Ultramarines (2e) and Space Marine 1st edition (RT era) both described them as being tens of thousands, as in plural, as in at least twice the size a lot of people like to take as the sacred number.