Legion Sizes

[Iron Lord]

The 4E and 5E SM codicies have the same paragraph:

 

"all was not lost, for the Emperor still had the genetic records of his beloved Primarchs and from these were created the Space Marines- the Angels of Death. Mustered into the great, ten thousand strong legions of the First Founding, they were warriors of immense strength and unbreakable willpower, with an unflinching loyalty to the Emperor. Together with his Space Marine Legions, the Emperor set out from Terra to conquer the galaxy."

 

That was back in 2004 (for 4E). That said, Volume II: Visions of Darkness (in the Visions series) with the 100,000 man per legion figure, was also published in 2004.

 

It looks like (at least at the moment of the Heresy) the 100,000 man figure was used for the Heresy-era novels- in The First Heretic, anyway.

 

It's not that implausible that the number would increase- with Marines being produced at a significantly faster rate than they die off, it would work.

[Legatus]

Actually Codex: Ultramarines (2e) and Space Marine 1st edition (RT era) both described them as being tens of thousands, as in plural, as in at least twice the size a lot of people like to take as the sacred number.

The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines does mention "tens of thousands" at one point (p. 7), but that was not strictly refering to individual Legion sizes:

 

"At the time, tens of thousands of troops were needed so the Space Marine Legions could push forwards over a widening battle front."

 

That could have been refering to the required Marines for the collective Legions. Edit: However, maybe I have missed another mention of that figure on another page?

 

The 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves states on page 9:

 

"Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order each Chapter's size was determined at about a thousand."

 

That line is repeated in the 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves on page 9, which had been published in 2009, way after the 100,000 figures had first been mentioned in 'Collected Visions' and in other Horus Heresy novels, which had led me to believe that there had not been any coordination between the Black Library figures and the Studio.

[Iron Lord]

Or, given that the 5E Marine Codex entry I mentioned was word-for-word the same as the 4E Space Marine Codex's description- there was a degree of cut-and-paste in the writing of that codex.

 

There are other examples of the codex not fitting in well with Black Library content. Like Idaeus's death occurring in 999.M41 according to the codex- but the Battle of Tarsis Ultra occurring in 997.M41, despite it being supposed to occur after Idaeus died and Ventris took over.

 

I think the description of Idaeus's death was copy-pasted from Index Astartes: Ultramarines, despite the date not making sense.

 

Same principle might apply to the SW Codex?

[Legatus]

There are other examples of the codex not fitting in well with Black Library content. Like Idaeus's death occurring in 999.M41 according to the codex- but the Battle of Tarsis Ultra occurring in 997.M41, despite it being supposed to occur after Idaeus died and Ventris took over.

 

I think the description of Idaeus's death was copy-pasted from Index Astartes: Ultramarines, despite the date not making sense.

That would be odd, considering that the Index Astartes had been written by Graham McNeill. You'd think he would get his own dates straight. Most sources seem to agree that Idaeus died in 999.M41, that the events in "Nightbringer" and "Warriors of Ultramar" occurred in 999.M41, and that Uriel Ventris was exiled in 001.M42 (or 002.M42). ("Most sources" in this case being the Ultramarines Timeline and the Lexicanum. Unfortunately I was unable to find specific dates in quick browses through "Nightbringer" or "Warriors of Ultramar".)

So it would seem that in this instance the copy/pasted passage is correct, and the rulebook putting it at 997.M41 was msitaken.

 

And the 2008 Codex Space Marines mentions "ten thousand strong Legions" (p. 6) as well, which is not a copied line from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, lending credibility to a similar description in the Codex Space Wolves.

[Iron Lord]

It's a copied line from the 4E SM codex though.

 

So it would seem that in this instance the copy/pasted passage is correct, and the rulebook putting it at 997.M41 was msitaken.

 

If the rulebook, and the codex, are wrong in this case (and BL is right) why can't the codex be wrong about the 10,000 figure?

 

Or at least, the 10,000 figure not represent the Heresy era, but the outset of the crusade?

[Legatus]

If the rulebook, and the codex, are wrong in this case (and BL is right) why can't the codex be wrong about the 10,000 figure?

The Ventris dates are a dispute within the studio sources, as the Codices say 999.M41 while the Rulebook says 997.M41. It is not a matter of BL vs Studio. I was unable to find specific dates in the first two Uriel Ventris novels myself, but since the other sources seem to agree on the 999.M41 dates I assumed that the Black Library novels would use those dates as well.

 

The Codex Space Marines and the Codex Space Wolves are not simply giving "wrong figures". They use the same figures that had more or less consistently been used throughout 2nd to 5th Edition, most notably in the Index Astartes series as well. If anything, then the figures are simply "outdated", if GW really wanted to switch to the larger figures. But so far the studio material still gives the smaller figures, thus my point that there seems to be no clear agreement between Black Library and the studio. If Black Library had estabilshed the 100,000 figures as the new overall "canon", then I wonder why not just one but two Codices published later are still givign the smaller figures. Either it is a coincidence that in two opportunities to give the new, retconed Legion sizes the (different) authors messed up, or, well, GW has not actually decided to go with the Black Library retcon.

[Gree]

There are other examples of the codex not fitting in well with Black Library content. Like Idaeus's death occurring in 999.M41 according to the codex- but the Battle of Tarsis Ultra occurring in 997.M41, despite it being supposed to occur after Idaeus died and Ventris took over.

 

I think the description of Idaeus's death was copy-pasted from Index Astartes: Ultramarines, despite the date not making sense.

That would be odd, considering that the Index Astartes had been written by Graham McNeill. You'd think he would get his own dates straight. Most sources seem to agree that Idaeus died in 999.M41, that the events in "Nightbringer" and "Warriors of Ultramar" occurred in 999.M41, and that Uriel Ventris was exiled in 001.M42 (or 002.M42). ("Most sources" in this case being the Ultramarines Timeline and the Lexicanum. Unfortunately I was unable to find specific dates in quick browses through "Nightbringer" or "Warriors of Ultramar".)

So it would seem that in this instance the copy/pasted passage is correct, and the rulebook putting it at 997.M41 was msitaken.

 

The .997 refrence was orignally put in 4th Edition Codex Tyranids if I remember correctly. (Written by McNeill) When Index Astartes Ultramarines was published I'm pretty sure it was written before Warriors of Ultramar.

[Legatus]

The 4th Edition Codex Tyranids mentions the defense of Tarsis Ultra in relation to the Hive Fleet Leviathan (p. 18). However, while the Hive Fleet Leviathan is said to have been first discovered in late 997.M41, it is not specifically stated that the battle on Taris Ultra occurred immediately upon the Hive Fleet's discovery. Indeed, the 4th Edition Codex Tyranids describes the further progression of Hive Fleet Leviathan after having described it's discovery, so it is not at all unlikely that the defense of Tarsis Ultra was meant to happen a few years further down the road, and that this is simply not explicitely made clear in that Codex.

 

"Late in 997.M41, contact was lost with several systems in Segmentum Tempestus. Lord INquisitor Kryptman picked up on the tell-tale signs of Tyranid Invasion well before his contemporaries in the Ordo Xenos. (...) So it was that the infamous Kryptman Census was implemented, a grand Astrotelepathic augury that eventually made contact with every documented world on the fringes of the Imperium. (...) as weeks turned into month and the worlds that ceased to respond began to form a pattern, Kryptman was able to chart the approach of a new hive fleet of terrifying size.

This pattern threw the normally unflappable Kryptman into a profound state of apprehension. The worlds with which they lost contact spanned Segmentums Tempestus, Ultima and Solar, indicative of a galaxy-wide offensive that had already claimed the lives of billions. (...)

Slowly, but with gathering speed, contact was lost with the worlds in the great tract of space between the prongs of this attack."

(4th Edition Codex Tyranids, p. 18)

 

That certainly sounds like the progress of Hive Fleet Leviathan had been observed for quite some time. Activity of the Fleet was detected in "late 997.M41", and the worlds are then monitored for "months" before a pattern becomes visible. The progress of the Hive Fleet spans several segmentums, and it is then said to progress slowly, but gather speed. It may well have been 999.M41 at the time Taris Ultra was attacked.

 

But I am still not clear on all the sources myself. As I said, I am mainly going by the apparent consensus in secondary sources (Ultramarines Timeline and Lexicanum description of Tarsis Ultra) and graciously assume that therefor the Black Library sources use those dates as well.

[Iron Lord]

The Rulebook and the Codex both say 997.M41.

 

The death of Idaeus isn't mentioned in the rulebook- but it is in the codex: 999.M41.

 

The 5E Tyranid Codex simply has at the top of the Hive Fleet Leviathan section "997.M41".

 

If Black Library had estabilshed the 100,000 figures as the new overall "canon", then I wonder why not just one but two Codices published later are still givign the smaller figures. Either it is a coincidence that in two opportunities to give the new, retconed Legion sizes the (different) authors messed up, or, well, GW has not actually decided to go with the Black Library retcon.

 

 

Given how clear A.D-B was about being ordered to use the figure in Visions of Darkness, it seems to me like the Studio authors haven't read any of the Visions books, but were simply copying what was written in older books.

 

The fact that in Codex Grey Knights its stated that there were roughly 400 Second Founding chapters, suggests that the lesson has finally sunk in and that the 100,000 figure is finally being used (9 loyal legions, depleted to slightly less than half strength, would produce 400 Chapters).

[Legatus]

The fact that in Codex Grey Knights its stated that there were roughly 400 Second Founding chapters, suggests that the lesson has finally sunk in and that the 100,000 figure is finally being used (9 loyal legions, depleted to slightly less than half strength, would produce 400 Chapters).

Or maybe it is an instance of Matt Ward having another field day being allowed to write 40K fluff. B) He's clearly enjoying the degree of creative freedom.

[Iron Lord]

Given that it coincides with the BL's stance on the Legions, and given that he used the 10,000 figure in the past, I'm inclined to suggest that the "He's now following BL's approach" reason for it, makes more sense.

[Gree]

I actually missed this the first time around, but I would like to put my own thoughts.

 

I believe the Great Crusade accounted for about a million worlds, since that is usually the number of worlds given for the current Imperium.

 

And the Legions used to be even smaller. They used to be 10,000 Marines strong. And that used to be enough.

 

If you assume that Space Marines were responsible for conquering half of the 1,000,000 worlds, then that would be 25,000 worlds per Legion, and 125 worlds per Legion per year. Since each Legion rouchly consists of ten Great Companies of a thousand Marines, each such Great Company therefor would have had to conquer 12.5 worlds per year.

 

I might as well expand on Legatus’s fine work here. Going by Collected Visions the Great Crusade accounted for two million worlds. Now of course some world willingly joined the Imperium of Mankind, but we don’t know how many. Given that historically nations that invade others and tell them ‘’you serve me now, give me money and troops for my war machine’’ probably won’t end well. I will round it up and use the 2 million in my calculations. That is a somewhat erroneous number, but given the lack of an exact source we have little choice.

 

And that is not taking into account the Imperial Truth and how poor a policy it is. Realistically speaking, the Imperial Truth should be causing almost every world to revolt in response. Going to a nation and trying to impose one’s religion had almost always ended poorly historically.

 

But I digress.

 

Assuming the Legions were at the forefront of the Crusade and the Army was used as support as per Collected Visions, then I would have the Astartes Legions cover 2 million worlds.

 

That would be 100,000 worlds per legion and 450 worlds per Legion per year if my math is correct. If we are using the 10,000 Legion figures then each Chapter of each Legion would have to conquer 50 worlds per year.

 

Now we would have to factor in the vagaries of warp travel. The Imperium’s FTL is notoriously slow and inefficient when compared to other fictional settings. Warp travel might take weeks between planets or months or even years in some cases.

 

As for the difficulty of each world I think we can safely say that we had some worlds that were tough nuts to crack and some that were easy to take. I would assume they balance themselves out.

 

All they really need to do is break the back of any resistance on that world, and then they are basically done, since the world would then usually surrender, or the Marines could turn the world over to the Imperial Army for occupation and conversion.

 

That would be the reasonable and logical means of doing so. However we have Legions noted to establish garrisons on planets. IA Black Legion even includes an incident were the Luna Wolves moved on too quickly.

 

And especially in the early days of the Great Crusade the Imperial Army would have had minimal presence, thus forcing the Astartes to stay behind.

In conclusion, if we use the 2 million worlds figure and assume the Astartes were present at most of the worlds and rounding up, we have a 50-worlds per year figure for each chapter sized force. Now one must factor in the unknown factor of warp travel. A chapter might take weeks if not months to proceed to each target, spend weeks if not months taking each target before heading on and leaving the rest to the Army.

 

This of course assumes each battle was perfectly fought and suffered minimal losses This does not take into account Astartes casualties (Like massive losses at Laeran for the Emperor’s Children), slow rates of recruitment and the according adjustments to Astartes combat strength, heavy siege combat, Astartes defeats, Astartes forces lost in the warp, the counterattack of xenos forces (for example an ork WAAGGH attacking several recently conquered worlds forcing the Astartes to respond) the combat doctrines of each Legion (The World Eaters combat doctrine I would assume would give them to heavy losses, the Iron Warriors were explicitly noted to be a garrison Legion, the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion were explicitly noted to take their time compared to other Legions) and the presence of Legions like the Emperor’s Children and Alpha Legion who only achieved full combat strength later in the crusade.

 

I acknowledge the fact that the Ultramarines were a large legion that got good results, but as we don’t have any solid figures to compared the negative factors of the Ultramarines positive factors, I would assume the negative factor outweigh the positive ones.

 

In conclusion if we accept the 2 million worlds figure and the fact that the 10,000 Astartes Legion was at the forefront of the Crusade then we have each Chapter with a 50 world timetable, in which lengthy warp journeys were required, and this would assume losses were light on each engagement and each campaign went perfectly and each world did not launch into open revolt and require the presence of the Astartes to return, and this assumes the Astartes left no garrisons behind each world.

 

I would of course acknowledge that my estimates are imperfect do to so many factors we don’t know about, but I believe it is accurate as much as one can. Thus I conclude that most of the heavy lifting and work in the Great Crusade would inevitability have to fall upon the shoulders of the Imperial Army and the 10,000 Astartes Legions would be a minor force in terms of a galactic scale of 2 million worlds.

 

Note this was all operating on Non-Black Library sources with the exception of the Collected Visions figure which apparently is the only solid source we have on the Imperium’s size.

 

The 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines had a story where three companies (= 300 Marines) of White Panthers took an average defended world in about two weeks. And they didn't even stop after having destroyed the command centres, they even went on to dismantle the armed forces entirely. So apparently it should be quite possible for an entire Chapter or Great Company of Space Marines to effectively conquer a well defended world in under a month. So, everything would check out of Legions were 10,000 Marines strong. No problem there.

 

Using Kethra is not the best example. The story curiously shies away from the exact specifics of the combat and the Kethra military seemed to make some rather boneheaded strategic decisions when countering the Astartes invasion.

[Legatus]

It is worth pointing out that the one source that gives 2 million worlds conquered during the great crusade is also the source that started the 100,000 Marines per Legion figures, so the two figures (2 million worlds, 100,000 Marines per Legion) are closely tied together. If we assume that other sources are to be believed in terms of Legion sizes, then it would make sense to use a different figure for the total worlds conquered during the great crusade as well. 40K sources usually speak of one million worlds for the Imperium today (e.g. 5th Edition BRB, p. 118).

That already cuts the requirement per Chapter/Great Company down to 25. And if you now assume that roughly half of the worlds joined peacefully (either because they were affraid, or because the Primarch was persuasive, or because joining a united human Imperium just made sense to them) you get the 12.5 required worlds I had mentioned in my post.

 

If one makes estimations for what amount of worlds could have been "easy" to conquer and what amount of worlds might have been "difficult", one obviously does not have a lot of solid information to base assumtions on. However, if we want to plausibly explain whether or not 10,000 Marines could have been enough to conquer a million worlds, then it is permissible to assume favourable conditions.

If you just wanted to calculate how many Marines would statistically have been needed, you of course woud have to go with "average" estimations for how difficult campaigns might have been. But if you want to know whether 10,000 would have been enough, you can calculate with favourable conditions. You might then come to a conclusion such as "if things were really difficult, 10,000 would not have been enough, but if a lot of worlds joined willingly, and if the warp currents were calm and travel not delayed much, then, yes, 10,000 Marines would have been enough."

[Gree]

It is worth pointing out that the one source that gives 2 million worlds conquered during the great crusade is also the source that started the 100,000 Marines per Legion figures, so the two figures (2 million worlds, 100,000 Marines per Legion) are closely tied together.

 

I am aware of that. However we have no concrete source for the Imperium’s size at the end of the Great Crusade other than Collected Visions.

 

If we assume that other sources are to be believed in terms of Legion sizes, then it would make sense to use a different figure for the total worlds conquered during the great crusade as well. 40K sources usually speak of one million worlds for the Imperium today (e.g. 5th Edition BRB, p. 118).

 

That is the Imperium after ten millennia of war, conquest, loss to the Age of Heresy and the Scouring, reconquest, Exterminatus, warp storms cutting off entire sectors sometimes and other factors. Frankly I severely doubt the Imperium was the same size as it was ten millennia ago. We have no concrete figure to use for the Heresy era Imperium outside of a single source in Collected Visions. Therefore, for lack of anything better, I must use the Collected Visions quote.

 

I also find it hard to believe that the Imperium today is bigger than the Imperium of ten millennia ago, considering that the Age of the Emperor is generally presented as a golden age of sorts compared to the latter day Imperium.

 

That already cuts the requirement per Chapter/Great Company down to 25. And if you now assume that roughly half of the worlds joined peacefully (either because they were affraid, or because the Primarch was persuasive, or because joining a united human Imperium just made sense to them) you get the 12.5 required worlds I had mentioned in my post.

 

Unfortunately I cannot assume that. Human nature had shown itself otherwise countless times to resist an invader’s Imperialistic aims. That is of course, discounting the whole ridiculous philosophy of the Imperial Truth. In other words I find having half of them join peacefully to be a drastic overestimation.

 

As for the Primarchs, I can think of only some who would be able to convince a world to join (Granted Lorgar had greater speaking skills than his brothers but took longer) and they would only have a dozen Primarch capable of that sort of thing at the most.

 

If one makes estimations for what amount of worlds could have been "easy" to conquer and what amount of worlds might have been "difficult", one obviously does not have a lot of solid information to base assumtions on. However, if we want to plausibly explain whether or not 10,000 Marines could have been enough to conquer a million worlds, then it is permissible to assume favourable conditions.

 

So in order for ten thousand Marines figure to work, each battle would have had to be perfectly fought and conducted with minimal casualties and the worlds left behind not rebelling. I find that highly unlikely to say the least.

 

If you just wanted to calculate how many Marines would statistically have been needed, you of course woud have to go with "average" estimations for how difficult campaigns might have been. But if you want to know whether 10,000 would have been enough, you can calculate with favourable conditions. You might then come to a conclusion such as "if things were really difficult, 10,000 would not have been enough, but if a lot of worlds joined willingly, and if the warp currents were calm and travel not delayed much, then, yes, 10,000 Marines would have been enough."

 

So in other words the 10,000 Marine figure can only exist in the most perfect and possible conditions without any kind of major stumbling block. I would state I find it very hard to believe the Astartes never took any huge losses (Like Laeran) or suffered any real defeats in the road to conquest. They must have had absurd luck then.

 

Again, as a student of military history and a buff of 40k I find that quite hard to believe the warp was super-fast the entire Crusade, worlds did not rebel under Imperialistic rule and the various alien races of the Galaxy did not interfere and assault the Imperial worlds. The orks alone supposedly outnumber pretty much everybody else by a huge margin and would have conquered the galaxy if they would ever unite. I find it very hard to believe that the Imperium never took any major ork assaults in their worlds.

 

One pushes the suspension of disbelief for the 10,000 Marine figure to exist considering the laundry list of problems I have listed in my previous post.

[Legatus]

First, the 5th Edition Rulebook does state that during the Age of The Forging the Imperium grew to almost the size it had during the Great Crusade (p. 124). And while the sources also explain that times are dire and a lot of worlds are being lost, it is nowhere near suggesting that the Imperium of the 41st millennium is only a small fraction or half of what it once used to be. So the statement about growing to Great Crusade sizes coupled with a statement speaking of a million worlds does suggest that the Imperium at the end of the Great Crusade consisted of about a million worlds.

 

Second, I can assume that a large number of worlds joined willingly. Not only is that said for at least three Primarchs, it is even mentioned in the Collected Visions that reclaimed worlds were often grateful to have been rescued (p. 32). Indeed, throughout the Editions of 40K the term "liberated" is often used to describe the worlds brought into the Imperium, most notably when Guilliman's successes are described ("he liberated more worlds than any other Primarch..."). So it is not at all unreasonable to assume that on a lot of worlds, only the tyrannical ruling classes had to be brought down in order to secure the allegiance of that world, while others would have joined without any need for violence at all.

 

Third, no, not "everything needs to be perfect", just favourable, as described above. A lot of worlds joining without several weeks or months of protracted warfare, Fleets arriving where they need to go on time. Essentially, a single Chapter/Great Company would have had to have been able to on average take one world per month (including travel time) in order for 10,000 Marines being sufficient.

 

If the question is whether or not 10,000 Marine strong Legions could have carried the Great Crusade, then the answer is a clear "If a single Chapter of Marines can journey to a world and conquer it within one month, then yes!" And we have examples in the fluff of fewer Marines achieving more.

[Gree]

First, the 5th Edition Rulebook does state that during the Age of The Forging the Imperium grew to almost the size it had during the Great Crusade (p. 124).

 

That is early on. Afterwards you have the Age of Apostasy, The Tyranids, xenos attacks, etc, etc, and thousands of years of history.

 

And while the sources also explain that times are dire and a lot of worlds are being lost, it is nowhere near suggesting that the Imperium of the 41st millennium is only a small fraction or half of what it once used to be.

 

I would certainly disagree with that statement. While I can see some early gains coming on, there remains sufficient doubt otherwise for me.

 

So the statement about growing to Great Crusade sizes coupled with a statement speaking of a million worlds does suggest that the Imperium at the end of the Great Crusade consisted of about a million worlds.

 

The statement issued in the rulebook was several millennia before the modern age of the Imperium. For me there remains suffcient doubt.

 

Second, I can assume that a large number of worlds joined willingly.

 

One realistically cannot.

 

Not only is that said for at least three Primarchs, it is even mentioned in the Collected Visions that reclaimed worlds were often grateful to have been rescued (p. 32).

 

That’s how it’s said. Realistically, that’s not how humans act, as I’ve pointed out.

 

I can accept for example, a statement that a single company of Marines can conquer a world as part of written fluff. I then can point out how that would not work without author fiat and plot shields and how it realistically would happen.

 

Similarly I can accept the background may state the worlds react, even though that’s not how humans react in real life and is essentially author fiat.

When people are liberated from a brutal dictator in real life they usually go ‘’Thanks, now kindly get the :P out.’’

 

So it is not at all unreasonable to assume that on a lot of worlds, only the tyrannical ruling classes had to be brought down in order to secure the allegiance of that world, while others would have joined without any need for violence at all.

 

It is entirely unreasonable that many worlds would join said Imperium, again, based on human behavior.

 

Oh, and you are using Black Library sources now?

 

Third, no, not "everything needs to be perfect", just favourable, as described above. A lot of worlds joining without several weeks or months of protracted warfare, Fleets arriving where they need to go on time.

 

Again, my point still holds. The 10,000 Marine figure can only exist under the most ideal circumstances that strain belief. Paticularly the warp which is unpredictable even at the best of times.

 

If the question is whether or not 10,000 Marine strong Legions could have carried the Great Crusade, then the answer is a clear "If a single Chapter of Marines can journey to a world and conquer it within one month, then yes!" And we have examples in the fluff of fewer Marines achieving more.

 

And we have examples of more Marines achieving far less in fluff. And, of course giving Marines a world a month, without any xenos attacks or rebellions flaring up, and ignoring Astartes losses and presuming the warp is actually operating fast, is merely the best-end estimates and rather unlikely ones in my opinion.

 

That is of course, operating on the million worlds theory, which is the result of guesswork and cannot be relied upon 100%. I would rather trust a solid number instead.

[Legatus]

I would certainly disagree with that statement. While I can see some early gains coming on, there remains sufficient doubt otherwise for me.

The reason why I can be so confident in saying that the Imperium in M41 likely isn't at half the size it had been at it's best of times is because that would have been significant enough to be pointed out in the fluff, which it isn't. We have a statement about the Imperium achieving Great Crusade era size on the one hand, and no statement that it was then cut down to a fraction of that on the other hand. The conclusion would be that the Imperium is now at about the size it had during the Great Crusade. It may even have lost a 100,000 worlds over the course of the past ten millennia, which while being an enormeous number of lost worlds, would still not put it far below Great Crusade numbers.

 

 

It is entirely unreasonable that many worlds would join said Imperium, again, based on human behavior.

I'd disagree, since there is hardly a parallel in our "reality". In 30K, you have isolated human worlds that are being plagued or kept under tyrannical rule by xenos or daemon worshipers. Then suddenly an imensely powerful human allianze appears and destroys the xenos, and asks you to join their faction. Many worlds were indeed "liberated" from such circumstances. Only those worlds that had been independent from xenos would perhaps dislike the idea to join a galaxy spanning human Imperium. Those worlds that had suffered under xenos would be thrilled.

And those worlds not keen on the idea of Imperial rule could be occupied by the Imperial Army.

 

 

Oh, and you are using Black Library sources now?

If even the "Legions are 100,000 strong" source describes situations that would be favourable and allow 10,000 strong Legions to succeed, then, yes. Such as how worlds would be grateful for being liberated. Not that non-BL sources wouldn't tell the same thing.

 

 

Again, my point still holds. The 10,000 Marine figure can only exist under the most ideal circumstances that strain belief. Paticularly the warp which is unpredictable even at the best of times.

That the warp currents were calmed by the birth of Slaanesh is one of the main plot points of the fluff of the Great Crusade, which is mentioned in the Collected Vision book as well. I believe it was also mention that later during the Horus Heresy, warp travel was obstructed by the Chaos gods, suggesting that during the Great Crusade it went largely without such difficulties.

 

 

And we have examples of more Marines achieving far less in fluff. And, of course giving Marines a world a month, without any xenos attacks or rebellions flaring up, and ignoring Astartes losses and presuming the warp is actually operating fast, is merely the best-end estimates and rather unlikely ones in my opinion.

It is merely assuming that things went smoothly. And I'd say rebellions could have been handled by the Imperial Army. This is definitely not "super best case scenario" estimations. I could have estimated to combine a mere 100 Marines with a large force of Imperial Army and Titan Legions. We have a story of 300 Marines singlehandedly taking a world in two weeks, so 100 Marines with several regiments of Imperial Army and a few Titans should be able to accomplish similar feats. But no, I used full 1,000 men Chapters/Great Companies for my estimations.

Would there be instances where 1,000 Marines (plus the Imperial Army and Titans, which I simply never mentioned) would take more than a month to conquer a world? Yes, of course. But there would also be instances of worlds that took less time than that.

 

My estimation is not saying, or requiring, that 1,000 Space Marines will always take a world in one month time or less. It is merely saying that it is possible for 1,000 Marines to do so. We have examples where it took more than that, and we have examples where it took less than that. If one month can reasonably be estimated to be an average time needed for 1,000 Marines to conquer an average world, then 10,000 Marines per Legion would have been able to account for a million worlds during the Great Crusade. And so far, I see no convincing reason to doubt that 1,000 Marines (plus Army and Titan entourage) could take a world within one month on average.

[Gree]

The reason why I can be so confident in saying that the Imperium in M41 likely isn't at half the size it had been at it's best of times is because that would have been significant enough to be pointed out in the fluff, which it isn't.

 

Why exactly would that be significant enough to be pointed out in the fluff?

 

We have a statement about the Imperium achieving Great Crusade era size on the one hand, and no statement that it was then cut down to a fraction of that on the other hand.

 

We have several records and catastophic wars, including at least two major civil wars right after, I believe it is a reasonable assumption.

 

The conclusion would be that the Imperium is now at about the size it had during the Great Crusade.

 

That is a possible conclusion, but not the only one.

 

But in the end, mostly guesswork and not a solid concrete statement that I would prefer.

 

It may even have lost a 100,000 worlds over the course of the past ten millennia, which while being an enormeous number of lost worlds, would still not put it far below Great Crusade numbers.

 

That is a possible number, but not the only one.

 

I'd disagree, since there is hardly a parallel in our "reality".

 

Why would they not? They are human aren’t they?

 

Then suddenly an imensely powerful human allianze appears and destroys the xenos, and asks you to join their faction. Many worlds were indeed "liberated" from such circumstances.

 

Not too different from events that have happen din real world history.

 

Those worlds that had suffered under xenos would be thrilled.

 

That is an assumption that does not quite fly with what we know if human behavior.

 

If even the "Legions are 100,000 strong" source describes situations that would be favourable and allow 10,000 strong Legions to succeed, then, yes. Such as how worlds would be grateful for being liberated. Not that non-BL sources wouldn't tell the same thing.

 

They may describe it, but it is not exactly how humans would act realistically.

 

That the warp currents were calmed by the birth of Slaanesh is one of the main plot points of the fluff of the Great Crusade, which is mentioned in the Collected Vision book as well. I believe it was also mention that later during the Horus Heresy, warp travel was obstructed by the Chaos gods, suggesting that during the Great Crusade it went largely without such difficulties.

 

It was clam relative to the period before that. It does not mean it was calm and predicable. Even in the Collected Visions book it is stated warp travel is tricky and unpredictable.

 

It is merely assuming that things went smoothly

 

Which we have no reason to.

 

And I'd say rebellions could have been handled by the Imperial Army.

 

And I would agree, if we had not already had examples in the Index Astartes articles of Legions being used to quash resistance and used to garrison planets, which suggests otherwise.

 

I could have estimated to combine a mere 100 Marines with a large force of Imperial Army and Titan Legions. We have a story of 300 Marines singlehandedly taking a world in two weeks, so 100 Marines with several regiments of Imperial Army and a few Titans should be able to accomplish similar feats.

 

By author fiat yes. Realistically? No.

 

Would there be instances where 1,000 Marines (plus the Imperial Army and Titans, which I simply never mentioned) would take more than a month to conquer a world? Yes, of course. But there would also be instances of worlds that took less time than that.

 

I am well aware of averages, I took that into account in my calculations. However the unpredictable nature of warp travel, the sheer numbers of worlds allocated to each chapter, xenos counterattacks, examples of smaller legions and legions used as garrison duty alongside Legions taking heavy losses which Astartes recruitment would take time to replace would suggest that only in the very optimal circumstances could such a scenery occur.

 

My estimation is not saying, or requiring, that 1,000 Space Marines will always take a world in one month time or less. It is merely saying that it is possible for 1,000 Marines to do so. We have examples where it took more than that, and we have examples where it took less than that. If one month can reasonably be estimated to be an average time needed for 1,000 Marines to conquer an average world, then 10,000 Marines per Legion would have been able to account for a million worlds during the Great Crusade.

 

It is possible, under the most favorable circumstances yes. That is the only time such a number will make sense and such a number causes me to strain my disbelief.

 

And so far, I see no convincing reason to doubt that 1,000 Marines (plus Army and Titan entourage) could take a world within one month on average.

 

I would assume the difficulties of warp travel, xenos interference, and the fact we have examples of Astartes taking extended time to quash rebellions would all play parts. And of course as they take more worlds casualties would mount, and since we know the rate of Astartes recruitment I would figure that would factor into Astartes combat efficiency.

 

But of course we fall back on my first conclusion. The Army is the one doing all the heavy work then. The Marines can only be a minor asset by virtue of their numbers.

[Legatus]

Why exactly would that be significant enough to be pointed out in the fluff?

Because that would constitute a crucial development, and would highlight the dire times GW is attempting to convey. Instead of merely writing "the Imperium is attacked on all sides", GW could have written "the Imperium has already lost the majority of the worlds it had once possessed."

 

 

We have several records and catastophic wars, including at least two major civil wars right after, I believe it is a reasonable assumption.

I do not think those wars have cost the Imperium 100,000 worlds, or anywhere near that number. A thousand worlds would already have been a lot. But insignificant in terms of the full size of the Imperium.

 

 

I'd disagree, since there is hardly a parallel in our "reality".

Why would they not? They are human aren’t they?

That the countries in our world are not suppressed by aliens is the crucial point. If a small country in our world was occupied by vicious aliens for hundreds of years, and was then liberated by the Russian federation, followed by the demand for the small country to join said federation, I think they might be willing to do so, gladly.

 

 

It is merely assuming that things went smoothly

Which we have no reason to.

I have reason to. Why would I assume that things went horribly wrong all the time? It is not exactly the impression I get from descriptions of the glorious Great Crusade. Why shouldn't I assume that the fleets were able to get where they intended to go, and 1,000 Marines were as capable back then as they are today? On the contrary, there is no real reason to doubt it.

Once again, the main question is whether or not 10,000 Marines per Legion could have accounted for a million worlds. Of course, if you assume that everything went horribly wrong and was extremely complicated, perhaps they could not have. But if "everything went smoothly", they could have. If we don't know how things went, and merely ask whether the 10,000 could have accomplished that, then the simple answer is "yes". Reasonably so.

 

 

It is possible, under the most favorable circumstances yes. That is the only time such a number will make sense and such a number causes me to strain my disbelief.

300 Marines without support taking a world within two weeks was not described as "most favourable circumstances". So 1,000 Marines plus Imeprial Army and Titan entourage taking a month is hardly "most favourable circumstances". Under "most favourable circumstances" you would have 100 Marines accomplishing the same. Here you have 1,000.

[Gree]

Because that would constitute a crucial development, and would highlight the dire times GW is attempting to convey. Instead of merely writing "the Imperium is attacked on all sides", GW could have written "the Imperium has already lost the majority of the worlds it had once possessed."

 

I would associate the two together myself. It is merely a question of writing style.

 

I do not think those wars have cost the Imperium 100,000 worlds, or anywhere near that number. A thousand worlds would already have been a lot. But insignificant in terms of the full size of the Imperium.

 

Honestly I would imagine they cost more truthfully.

 

That the countries in our world are not suppressed by aliens is the crucial point.

 

They have been surpassed by brutal dictators who have committed acts that might as well be called inhuman.

 

If a small country in our world was occupied by vicious aliens for hundreds of years, and was then liberated by the Russian federation, followed by the demand for the small country to join said federation, I think they might be willing to do so, gladly.

 

I would imagine they would be quite willing to thank them, but unwilling to join another nation when they can govern themselves.

 

I have reason to. Why would I assume that things went horribly wrong all the time?

 

Because that’s how wars and the setting work? Battles rarely, if ever, go according to plan, and we already have sections in the rulebook explaining just how hazardous warp travel is. We have sections in the ork Codex detailing just how many freaking orks that galaxy has and just how aggressive they are. IT would be rather strange to think they never attacked the Imperium of mankind.

 

It is not exactly the impression I get from descriptions of the glorious Great Crusade. Why shouldn't I assume that the fleets were able to get where they intended to go, and 1,000 Marines were as capable back then as they are today? On the contrary, there is no real reason to doubt it.

 

You would assume the fleets would suffer problems because of how the warp is explained to be dangerous and unpredictable. I get the impression that you believe that the Astartes would largely suffer few difficulties in the Great Crusade when common sense and the background would describe otherwise.

 

and 1,000 Marines were as capable back then as they are today? On the contrary, there is no real reason to doubt it.

 

That is more based on realism. Whether Astartes back then are effective today does not really matter when one takes away plot shields and authorial fiat and beings to apply realism to the combat and tactics used.

 

Once again, the main question is whether or not 10,000 Marines per Legion could have accounted for a million worlds. Of course, if you assume that everything went horribly wrong and was extremely complicated, perhaps they could not have.

 

Then it is a good thing I do no assume everything went horribly wrong, but rather the armies suffer from the logical dangers they would face according to prior 40k statements and common sense.

 

But if "everything went smoothly", they could have. If we don't know how things went, and merely ask whether the 10,000 could have accomplished that, then the simple answer is "yes". Reasonably so.

 

Which is exactly why I doubt it. For something to flow smoothly as a result of that in face of what we know of the setting and military doctrine strains my disbelief.

 

300 Marines without support taking a world within two weeks was not described as "most favourable circumstances". So 1,000 Marines plus Imeprial Army and Titan entourage taking a month is hardly "most favourable circumstances". Under "most favourable circumstances" you would have 100 Marines accomplishing the same. Here you have 1,000.

 

Putting aside my doubts about the realism and practically of the Kethra example you cited (which I pointed out was a bad example) I was referring to a variety of military factors (For example the dangers of warp travel, the reduced combat efficiency a marine force would logically suffer from when compared to their recruitment rates vs casualties and examples of Astartes slowing down on their timetable, etc, etc.)

[Legatus]

I find neither the appeals to "common sense" nor the appeals to "realism" very convincing, nor sufficiently supported. I therefor maintain that 1,000 Space Marines plus Imperial Army and Titan support could likely easily take an average world within one month.

 

If the reply to "it was probably possible" is merely "but maybe it was not", then there is not really any need for a debate.

[Gree]

I find neither the appeals to "common sense" nor the appeals to "realism" very convincing, nor sufficiently supported. I therefor maintain that 1,000 Space Marines plus Imperial Army and Titan support could likely easily take an average world within one month.

 

So you think that army commanders would realistically and logically send in their troops piecemental and conveniently forget they have long-range artillery?

 

And of course that ignores said warp variables, logical casualty rates that such a force would suffer, xenos counterattack, etc, etc.

 

If the reply to "it was probably possible" is merely "but maybe it was not", then there is not really any need for a debate.

 

I find it so. I have come to the conclusion that the numbers you support can only be believeable in the most favorable and unlikely conditions.

[Pulse]

@Gree - I would ignore Legatus' military POV as its clear it actually doesn't understand tactics.

[Legatus]

I find neither the appeals to "common sense" nor the appeals to "realism" very convincing, nor sufficiently supported. I therefor maintain that 1,000 Space Marines plus Imperial Army and Titan support could likely easily take an average world within one month.

So you think that army commanders would realistically and logically send in their troops piecemental and conveniently forget they have long-range artillery?

That's one heck of a non sequitur, if I ever saw one.

 

 

@Gree - I would ignore Legatus' military POV as its clear it actually doesn't understand tactics.

I am similarly at a loss as to where this comment is coming from. :devil:

 

Did some posts get deleted while I was away?

[Gree]

That's one heck of a non sequitur, if I ever saw one.

 

How was that a non sequitur? I was referring to the Kethra example with the 300 White Panthers and how exactly it made little sense militarily.