Legion Sizes

[Gree]

They have Assault Companies comprised of assault squads. Thats way different to an assault company who acts as the assault element in missions.

 

The 8th Company is comprised of assault squads. What exact is the difference?

[Marshal Rohr]

Seriously dude?

 

Jump packs? They wern't prevalent during the heresy. The Assault Companies of the Legions were the Vanguard and not a reserve formation, they used Land Raiders and Armor etc. The Space Marine Siege Assault Army IA list is what a PH Assault Company would be.

[Gree]

Seriously dude?

 

Jump packs? They wern't prevalent during the heresy. The Assault Companies of the Legions were the Vanguard and not a reserve formation, they used Land Raiders and Armor etc. The Space Marine Siege Assault Army IA list is what a PH Assault Company would be.

 

Then it would be reasonable then to differentiate between post-heresy assault squads and pre-heresy ones when describng them yes?

[Marshal Rohr]

It should be understood that they are different, since a modern chapter is different from a Legion.

[Gree]

It should be understood that they are different, since a modern chapter is different from a Legion.

 

Obviously, however using the exact specifics of a ''Assault company'' without specifying what you mean is quite confusing.

[Sturnn]

So if all city is full of soldiers, we can think that whole population of the city is in open rebelion. Why should Astartes even attack such city? It could be destroyed without spering AA. If there are important structures for Imperium, you can be sure that they will send more than Astartes to take it back. But answer for your question - Adeptus Astartes are not assaulting such objects. Such strongholds must be bring down step by step so this negate AA doctrins. But, there is no such big void shields to protect whole city behind it. There is example in ,,Necropolis" - ok, they had wall and after it was shield, protecting only the most important things in the city. Here we have, lets say, our sollution - after wall falls, street fight begins and in the city tanks are not so much powerfull as on the open space. In the city Astartes are real danger for defenders, all Astartes but if we will take same Chapters which deploys urban tactics like Imperial Fists or heavy use of flamers/meltas like Salamanders i think that 2-3 companies could cleanse such hive-city. So if the walls will fall if there is some wall, city is open for attack.

[Gree]

So if all city is full of soldiers, we can think that whole population of the city is in open rebelion.

 

More like the whole planet.

 

Why should Astartes even attack such city? It could be destroyed without spering AA.

 

Because it would contain important facotirss, infastruture, resources that can’t be destroyed from orbit.

 

there are important structures for Imperium, you can be sure that they will send more than Astartes to take it back.

 

Thank you for proving my point. The Astartes themselves cannot take a well-defended worl without help.

 

But answer for your question - Adeptus Astartes are not assaulting such objects.

 

Some posters seem to think so.

 

But, there is no such big void shields to protect whole city behind it. There is example in ,,Necropolis" - ok, they had wall and after it was shield, protecting only the most important things in the city.

 

As I recall the city was protected by the void shields or only the important parts troops could shelter in. Hence why the Zocians didn’t just bomb it to hell.

 

Here we have, lets say, our sollution - after wall falls, street fight begins

 

Well first of all how are they getting the void shields down and how are the Astartes approaching without being blasted to bits by the city defenses?

 

and in the city tanks are not so much powerfull as on the open space.

 

That’s not much of a drawback when you have more tanks then the enemy has infantry.

 

In the city Astartes are real danger for defenders, all Astartes but if we will take same Chapters which deploys urban tactics like Imperial Fists or heavy use of flamers/meltas like Salamanders i think that 2-3 companies could cleanse such hive-city. So if the walls will fall if there is some wall, city is open for attack.

 

If the walls fall I expect those 2-3 companies to begin moving into the outer edges of the city before a few hundred Russes start blasting away with tens of thousands of heavy weapons and lasguns being added to the fray.

[Sturnn]

First of all, void shield protects from missels etc, not form getting living forms through it. Second, Space Marines had a lot of fire power and making huge hole in wall is no problem to them, making some gap and throw there enough fire to hold enemy form filling it is easy to. Whide hole prevent from giving other segments of the wall enough area to fire on that gap, than fast assault into this gap and hold it to get heavier stuff into it. No problem. If would be Astartes commander, I would deploy my warriors into the gap make by heavy support and than push forward with scouts ahead marking enemy heavy weapons possition etc.

I proved no of your point. Taking world and taking city is two different things. World? What they can do to stop Astertes form deploying their forces and start to harras enemies supply convoys? Enemy is not Astartes, he cannot survieve long without supply (food, amunition etc ). Make all cities starve to death is easy way to win.

Attacing city, that was my point.

About hundreds of tanks in city, dude, do you imagine how hard is to manoeuvre with tanks between buildings? I doupt that in hive city were only roads so wide that there would ride 3 or 4 tanks one next to other. And what? It is so hard to make ambush from buildings and kill tanks with rocket launchers, lasscanons, multimeltas etc? In the city infantry is better than tanks.

I didnt said that they cannot take such objects alone, they don't do this because it is not their job.

And about void shields again...yes, it is rear stuff. Only few cities could deploy them, forge worlds i think. This is lost and forgotten technology. If there would be so much of them, why there weren't on the Armagedon?

[Gree]

First of all, void shield protects from missels etc, not form gething living forms through it.

 

I know, that’s why orbital bombardment is out of the question.

 

Second, Space Marines had a lot of fire power and making huge hole in wall is no problem to them, making some gap and throw there enough fire to hold enemy form filling it is easy to.

 

Space Marines have a lot of firepower yes, but Guard have more firepower. Using the Ultramarines as an example the chapter as a whole has about 30-40 tanks for the entire chapter. Even a small hive world should be able to make tens of thousands of Russes.

 

Whide hole prevent from giving other segments of the wall enough area to fire on that gap, than fast assault into this gap and hold it to get heavier stuff into it. No problem.

 

What exactly is going to stop a few hundred Russes from coming up and blowing the tightly packed Marines in the confined space to kingdom come?

Astartes lack effective artillery. What exactly is to stop basilisks from destroying the Astartes miles away before they ever reach the wall in the first place?

 

What exactly is going to stop tactical bombers from annihilating your force thousands of feet in the air? If the world has defense lasers, we know they can be reconfigured to fire at ground level so what is to stop your Astartes force from taking hits from starship-killing firepower miles away?

 

In would be Astartes commander, I would deploy my warriors into the gap make by heavy support and than push forward with scouts ahead marking enemy heavy weapons possition etc.

 

If you would be an Astartes commander then I suspect the Russes will shortly have a field day blowing apart your squads coming through the wall.

 

I proved no of your point. Taking world and taking city is two different things. World? What they can do to stop Astertes form deploying their forces and start to harras enemies supply convoys?

 

Guard convoys with hundreds of tanks and air support?

 

Enemy is not Astartes, he cannot survieve long without supply (food, amunition etc ). Make all cities starve to death is easy way to win.

 

But not something exclusive to the Astartes and not really applicable here.

 

About hundreds of tanks in city, dude, do you imagine how hard is to manoeuvre with tanks between buildings?

 

You do not need to maneuver, just place them on the outskirts to annihilate the approaching Astartes from miles away.

 

It is so hard to make ambush from buildings and kill tanks with rocket launchers, lasscanons, multimeltas etc? In the city infantry is better than tanks.

 

Is it so hard to level the building the Astartes are hiding in with high-explosive shells?

 

I didnt said that they cannot take such objects alone, they don't do this because it is not their job.

 

And I have proved that they cannot.

 

And about void shields again...yes, it is rear stuff. Only few cities could deploy them, forge worlds i think. This is lost and forgotten technology. If there would be so much of them, why there weren't on the Armagedon?

 

There are more on Armageddon I would assume, we are given no information on the other hive cites defenses. However even Vraks was able to be outfitted with void shields so I would assume it is rather common.

 

Can you give me some sort of proof void shields are rarer?

[Sturnn]

Space Marines have a lot of firepower yes, but Guard have more firepower. Using the Ultramarines as an example the chapter as a whole has about 30-40 tanks for the entire chapter. Even a small hive world should be able to make tens of thousands of Russes.

 

And within lets say, 15 minutes they all will be where the gap appeard, leaving other sections of the city undefended. They will get there thorught city full of civilians,buildings and other structures. Good luck

 

What exactly is going to stop a few hundred Russes from coming up and blowing the tightly packed Marines in the confined space to kingdom come?

Astartes lack effective artillery. What exactly is to stop basilisks from destroying the Astartes miles away before they ever reach the wall in the first place?

 

There is no void shield large enough to protect whole city, whith it's walls etc. Why couldn't I make orbital bombardment directly on the deffending wall, killing all your soldiers on it, force you back behind the shield and just take no-mans land and prepare for futher attack into the city? You are defending, your are hidding in the city with void shield, my fleet rules the sky so I can do it.

 

What exactly is going to stop tactical bombers from annihilating your force thousands of feet in the air? If the world has defense lasers, we know they can be reconfigured to fire at ground level so what is to stop your Astartes force from taking hits from starship-killing firepower miles away?

 

Exactly the same thing what keeps you safe in your city my friend - void shield. You have it, ok. but than you cannont throw any bombers, shoot to me from lassers. Lower shield, i will lower your shield spire to the dust with my orbital bombardment. Keep it up, you will be unable to do nothing to stop me from crushing your unshielded defences.

 

 

Guard convoys with hundreds of tanks and air support?

 

As I sad, sky is my, and dude, if you keeps saying that you have hundreds of tanki within the cities you simply cannot have them with convoys. You had to turn all planet population into army.

 

You do not need to maneuver, just place them on the outskirts to annihilate the approaching Astartes from miles away.

 

My orbital bombardment make your tanks just piece of rumble or you back them behind the shield. One or another dude.

 

Is it so hard to level the building the Astartes are hiding in with high-explosive shells?

 

So what is point of defending city if you will turn it into dust? You fight to procect it. But but, even ruins makes your tanks useles. One destroyed tank could block whole street so others will be unable to move quickly to fight in other areas of the city.

 

 

There are more on Armageddon I would assume, we are given no information on the other hive cites defenses. However even Vraks was able to be outfitted with void shields so I would assume it is rather common.

 

We have info that Helreach hand't have void shild, we know that Hades hadn't void shield because it was destroyed form orbit by Orks. In ,,Necropolis" only Vergast had shield from all these cities. Even in ,,Rynn's World" authors says that void shield are old and rare technology and very few groups in Imperium can still deploy them - Astartes for example. There was siedge of the capital city and only Crimson's Fists stronghold within the city had void shield - other parts no so I can say that they are rare stuff.

[Gree]

And within lets say, 15 minutes they all will be where the gap appeard, leaving other sections of the city undefended. They will get there thorught city full of civilians,buildings and other structures. Good luck

 

Why would they leave the rest of the city undefended when you can have possibly thousands of tanks in the city and why was there not a mobile reserve sent near a threatened breaching area as soon as Astartes were encountered?

 

There is no void shield large enough to protect whole city, whith it's walls etc.

 

Yes there is, in Necropolis we had a void shield sufficient to cover enough space for a half million men to be deployed and defend.

 

Why couldn't I make orbital bombardment directly on the deffending wall, killing all your soldiers on it, force you back behind the shield and just take no-mans land and prepare for futher attack into the city?

 

Because the void shield protects the wall and even if you did bring it down it would be easy for be to shell no man’s land with hundreds of artillery batteries and annihilate you.

 

That is assuming of courser your ships will survive my defense lasers blasting at them. Come to think about it defense lasers like ground targets as well. You still have not adressed the issue of ship-killing firepower directed a your Astartes.

 

You are defending, your are hidding in the city with void shield, my fleet rules the sky so I can do it.

 

And I have hundreds of basalisk batteries quite ready to blow you to pieces if you make a ground assault.

 

Oh? And the fleet in the skies? It can’t approach in low orbit to bombard me otherwise the defense lasers will blast it out of the sky.

 

Exactly the same thing what keeps you safe in your city my friend - void shield. You have it, ok. but than you cannont throw any bombers, shoot to me from lassers. Lower shield, i will lower your shield spire to the dust with my orbital bombardment. Keep it up, you will be unable to do nothing to stop me from crushing your unshielded defences.

 

Why would the void shield prevent me from flying out aircraft to bomard you as your ground forces appaorch the city? And why can't I shoot at you from lasers? The defense lasers at Vraks had no trouble firing at ships while the fortress's void shields were up.

 

As I sad, sky is my, and dude, if you keeps saying that u have hundreds of tanki within the cities you simply cannot have them with convoys. You had to turn all planet population into army.

 

You really underestimate just how many people a planet can put out and just how many tanks I can put out. Hundreds of tanks to guard a convoy? My factories can make thousands more easily. If I am commanding a planet comparable to the size of planet earth the I can put out tens of millions of soldiers without digging in deep to the civilian population at all.

 

Oh, and the defense laser thing. All I have to do is put the convoys under their arc of fire.

 

My orbital bombardment make your tanks just piece of rumble or you back them behind the shield. One or another dude.

 

Or my defense lasers blast your ship out of orbit as you try to bombard me.

 

Of course, considering tanks can fire from miles away I just need to keep them in the void shielded range and blast you from afar. Not hard at all.

 

So what is point of defending city if you will turn it into dust? You fight to procect it.

 

The loss of a few buildings won’t matter. They can be rebuilt. However you will have a much harder time of replacing Astartes than I have building new houses and tanks. I will gladly trade a house for a combat squad of dead Astartes.

 

I can take the losses. You can't.

 

But but, even ruins makes your tanks useles. One destroyed tank could block whole street so others will be unable to move quickly to fight in other areas of the city.

 

And ruins make your Astartes dead.

 

We have info that Helreach hand't have void shild,

 

Helsreach didn’t have a void shield? The novel would disagree if I remember it correctly.

 

we know that Hades hadn't void shield because it was destroyed form orbit by Orks.

 

Because they dropped a rok on it, not be orbital bombardment. So no.

 

In ,,Necropolis" only Vergast had shield from all these cities.

 

Proof? Where does it state that in the novel?

 

Even in ,,Rynn's World" authors says that void shield are old and rare technology and very few groups in Imperium can still deploy them - Astartes for example. There was siedge of the capital city and only Crimson's Fists stronghold within the city had void shield - other parts no so I can say that they are rare stuff.

 

Can you give me a quote on that?

[Sturnn]

Just lost intrest in talking with you. There is no discussion, just you have to be right and others are wrong. And no, there was no void shield in helsrach, shield didnt protecting the wall in the ,,Necropolis". And if such planet is not forge world, you are unable to make so many tanks - Leman Russ especialy because only few planets have technology to make them. You are keeping no facts from wh40k, you just imagined that this planet will not be counqerd by Astartes and any force i think because whole population you turned into elite troops with support of heavy armour units lager than this in Sabbat's Worlds Crusade so sorry but I stop this talk. You just created world that didn't exist in wh40k.

[Gree]

Just lost intrest in talking with you. There is no discussion, just you have to be right and others are wrong.

 

No, I’m just applying stuff like logic and real world logistics to our discussion.

 

And no, there was no void shield in helsrach,

 

Proof and quotes?

 

shield didnt protecting the wall in the ,,Necropolis".

 

Proof and quotes?

 

And if such planet is not forge world, u are unable to make so many tanks - Leman Russ especialy because only few planets have technology to make them.

 

Actually no. The STC means that even a primitive industrial base could manufacture a Russ if needed.

 

And you do not have to be a forge world to make so many tanks. America in real life was able to make thousands upon thousands of tanks, vehicles and APC’s during World War II. A 40k planet should be able to produce at least that amount of not much more.

 

You are keeping no facts from wh40k, u just imagined that this planet will not be counqerd by Astartes and any force i think because whole population u turned into elite troops with support of heavy armour units lager than this in Sabbat's Worlds Crusade so sorry but I stop this talk. You just created world that didn't exist in wh40k.

 

I am operating entirely on stated facts from the rulebook and Imperial Armour. We have demonstration of populations in the tens of billions. We have examples of defense lasers and void shields in confusion. And nowhere did I state a planet needed to have elite troops. Quantity is a quality of it’s own.

 

The Hive world Minea from the rulebook has a population of 154 billion people. With that kind of number they can quite easily churn out hundreds of millions of men without strain at all.

 

The world I have created already exists in Warhammer 40k. Here I am simply assuming that a planet will use it’s population to the logical conclusion and that it’s industry base will produce as much as one would expect from planet that size.

[Marshal Rohr]

How long until someone posts a thread where you argue entirely against the points you've made in this thread? A quick search through your posting history shows that you have argued what Legatus is saying in 2008, 2010, and as recent as this past spring. And this is a frequent occurence. One day you will argue point A only to vehmently argue againt point A 6 months later.

 

Im sure you will take this as combative, but Im just genuinely interested in why you change your positions with such frequency?

[Gree]

How long until someone posts a thread where you argue entirely against the points you've made in this thread? A quick search through your posting history shows that you have argued what Legatus is saying in 2008, 2010, and as recent as this past spring. And this is a frequent occurence. One day you will argue point A only to vehmently argue againt point A 6 months later.

 

Im sure you will take this as combative, but Im just genuinely interested in why you change your positions with such frequency?

 

I never knew you could be so obsessive with me. Searching my personal history as far back as 2008? That’s dedicated for an internet debate about fictional toy soldiers.

 

Simply put, I argue against points I feel are incorrect and false. I argue against points that don’t really mesh well. It is of course well within my right to argue as long as it is done in a polite manner respectable to both parties and within forum rules so I’m not quite sure what you are so upset about?

 

As for changing positions? Well simply put my mind changes on subjects. Shocking I know. On other forums I have engaged in discussions like so and my mind has changed. I know believe my former positions to me wrong and I seek to correct that.

 

That, and new fluff appears that changes my opinion and how I view the 40k world (Rules of Engagement for example)

[Marshal Rohr]

Thats a little disingenuous dont you think?

 

 

Granted, major changes to the background have made re change the way I view things as well.

[Gree]

Thats a little disingenuous dont you think?

 

Not at all. It is uncommon for me to change my position, but when I am convinced by others I usually realize what I argued before was wrong.

[Captain Idaho]

It seems to me that this thread almost immediately slipped off topic after the previous moderator intervention.

 

The topic is not could a Space Marine chapter attack and conquer a world. It is a legion.

 

Lets not have this become even more circular. In my opinion, the discussion of biased sources is irrelevant to the discussion. One author can decide to write where marines are basically immortals who smash aside any opposition, and in another source write how 20 guardsmen repelled a marine invasion. It comes down to what works for that particular story as the authors are not required to keep consistent with previous works.

 

Keep it to the capabilities of a marine legion and not how the sources are biased or this thread will go away with prejudice.

 

However a Heresy-era Legion force is divided into chapters. These chapters would logically be expected to take a world. Thus determining their capabilities is entirely relevant to that of a Legion’s overall conquest power. If we are investigating a Legion’s capabilities then naturally it will come to Chapter sizes as they are a sub-unit of the Legion.

 

Just a quick note on this: The point of JamesI's post was not about the contention whether Chapters were existant in Heresy era or relevent to that time period, it was intended to refer to posts arguing about "modern 40K". Legions aren't just a collections of Space Marines, they are a force consisting of massive fleets, Imperial Army units and Tank Companies etc.

 

Let's not be pedantic about the little details of what JamesI said, as it is pretty clear the intent of his post.

 

I'm not trying to step on his toes, as he is a more capable Mod than me, it's rather a statement that he isn't the only Mod watching this thread with an eager Melta... :wallbash:

[Gree]

Just a quick note on this: The point of JamesI's post was not about the contention whether Chapters were existant in Heresy era or relevent to that time period, it was intended to refer to posts arguing about "modern 40K". Legions aren't just a collections of Space Marines, they are a force consisting of massive fleets, Imperial Army units and Tank Companies etc.

 

I am quite well aware of that. However in order to properly figure out the combat strength of the Legions one would look unto the combat ability of chapters before factoring in the various Army units and tank companies yes?

 

Let's not be pedantic about the little details of what JamesI said, as it is pretty clear the intent of his post.

 

Actually no, it was not clear at all to me.

[Captain Idaho]

You just stated you were aware of JamesI intent:

 

I am quite well aware of that. However in order to properly figure out the combat strength of the Legions one would look unto the combat ability of chapters before factoring in the various Army units and tank companies yes?

 

Then went on to say:

 

Actually no, it was not clear at all to me.

 

Which is a contradiction.

 

And arguing with me the point when I suspect you are entirely aware of MY intent isn't particularly constructive and makes me suspect you are doing it deliberately.

 

Final warning for the thread: Let's keep it civil and on topic or else this thread goes the way of the dodo.

[Skolia]

I don't think it is too far fetched to agree that the Legions would have been able to capture that many worlds in such a short period of time.

 

Especially when you consider that quite a few Legions were split between Expeditionary Fleets and that all the fleets had further support from the other branches of Imperial military might.

 

Plus that is how it has now been written. *shrugs* Who knows...fifty years down the line the Legions might have numbered millions :(

 

And as an aside...a word search of Helsreach threw up zero mention of "void shield" and the only mention of "shield" was on page 15 when Grimaldus realises the Eternal Crusader has lost its shields. As for Necropolis...

 

Necropolis, Chapter 2

The bombardment continued, even though the Shield had been raised. A vast, translucent

umbrella of field-energy extended out from the great Shield Pylon in the central district and unfurled

itself in a dome that reached down to anchor substations inside the Curtain Wall.

 

**SNIP**

 

Now that the Shield was up to cover the main hive, the outer habs, the heavy industry sectors

and the mining district south of the wall were taking the worst of it.

 

Necroplis, Chapter 6

Gaunt felt the monumental bulk of the Curtain Wall around him actually vibrate. The shellfire

falling against its outer skin was a dull roar.

 

So it seems like the main hive and inside the curtain wall were shielded, the rest of ***EDIT*** the wall and ***/EDIT*** the city not so much so ^^.

[Gree]

You just stated you were aware of JamesI intent:

 

Because I thought his intent was something else when I said that.

 

Which is a contradiction.

 

Not at all. I thought his intent was something else until you clarifed it for me.

 

And arguing with me the point when I suspect you are entirely aware of MY intent isn't particularly constructive and makes me suspect you are doing it deliberately.

 

Again, not at all, if there was something with my posting that you did not know about or misinterpreted then it is my duty as a poster to inform you, as a mod so you may conduct your duties in a more efficient matter. Heaven forbid miscommunication causes problems.

 

And as an aside...a word search of Helsreach threw up zero mention of "void shield" and the only mention of "shield" was on page 15 when Grimaldus realises the Eternal Crusader has lost its shields.

 

Interesting, I'll have to read that again, I distinctly recall some sort of defense mechanism being operated.

[Captain Idaho]

Ok, we're done for now. I need to discuss this thread with the mods and admins and if they feel like it can be reopened then it will be.

 

Don't hold your breath though.