Ironclad dreads

[Myxx]

I am currently turning a BA Furioso dread into a DIY Techmarine Ironclad dread. My math hammer is more like a math-noodle so I ask my betters: which is better/stronger/preferable, a chainfist or a seismic hammer?

[Captain Antonius]

Brother,

 

First off let me say that I've never played my Ironclad as of yet (or put it together), so take my opinion with a heavy dose of salt.

 

I think that the Chainfist would be preferable to the Seismic Hammer. The Seismic Hammer only lets you get a +1 to damage rolls. Not that Str10 is bad, but you still need a 4+ to pen a Land Raider's armor. The Chain Fist would give you two dice to get that 4+ but not the +1 to damage.

 

I'm not sure that if you replace the Seismic Hammer with the Chainfist you loose the built in meltagun that comes with it. Reading the codex entry doesn't make it clear to me. I was going to model the meltagun built into the carapace so that it would always be there. I'm of the opinion that it stays, but again, I'm not sure.

 

If you loose the meltagun by replacing the Seismic Hammer, it might be better to keep that meltagun shot and not do it. By the time you are in range to assault with an Ironclad, you are in optimum melta range and get the ap1 +2d6 to pen.

 

Hopefully there will be some others who have played a game with the Ironclad who can shed some more light on the subject.

[Valkyrion]

You keep the melta gun, giving the Ironclad 2D6+8 with +1 on the damage chart from 6" followed by 3 or 4 attacks at 2D6+10 to penetrate with a chainfist.

 

Chainfist+Melta Gun is the best combo, IMO.

[Avarris]

Also note that in combat with a Chainfist you do not get +1 to attack when combined with the DCCW in the other arm as the Chainfist isn't regarded as a DCCW like the Seismic Hammer is.

 

So with the Chainfist you have 2 attacks (3 on the charge) and with the Hammer you have 3 attacks (4 on the charge)

 

I use 3 Ironclads in my 1500 point list and I found that out from a GW staff when I started to use them.

[Myxx]

so if the hammer gets a +1 on the vehicle damage, and both the hammer and dccw are considered the "same" weapon type, do you use the +1 for all attacks? Similar to a power weapon and bolt pistol getting the same bonuses in CC?

[KhorneHunter57x]

Also note that in combat with a Chainfist you do not get +1 to attack when combined with the DCCW in the other arm as the Chainfist isn't regarded as a DCCW like the Seismic Hammer is.

Yeah, it is. From v. 1.2 of the Space Marine Errata/FAQ:

Note that a chainfist on an Ironclad Dreadnought is a Dreadnought close combat weapon that rolls 2D6 for armour penetration.

[Tai'shar]

Chance to destroy on hit

Hammer

AV 10 0.50

AV 11 0.44

AV 12 0.36

AV 13 0.27

AV 14 0.19

 

Chainfist

AV 10 0.33

AV 11 0.33

AV 12 0.32

AV 13 0.30

AV 14 0.27

 

So it's fairly easy to see that the hammer is better against low armour targets while the chainfist is best against those Land Raiders. Chainfist is also only slightly better against AV 13. Personally unless you knew you were going against lots of AV 14, Leman Russ/Land Raiders I'd take the hammer.

[Panda_]

Chance to destroy on hit

[...]

 

So it's fairly easy to see that the hammer is better against low armour targets while the chainfist is best against those Land Raiders. Chainfist is also only slightly better against AV 13. Personally unless you knew you were going against lots of AV 14, Leman Russ/Land Raiders I'd take the hammer.

While those stats are interresting to choose from, using the number of hits is really important too.

 

Chances to destroy assuming 3 hits

av Hammer Chainfist Best Difference

10 0,88 0,70 Hammer 0,18

11 0,82 0,70 Hammer 0,13

12 0,74 0,69 Hammer 0,05

13 0,61 0,66 Chainfist 0,05

14 0,47 0,61 Chainfist 0,14

 

Chances to destroy assuming 2 hits

av Hammer Chainfist Best Difference

10 0,75 0,55 Hammer 0,20

11 0,69 0,55 Hammer 0,14

12 0,59 0,54 Hammer 0,05

13 0,47 0,51 Chainfist 0,04

14 0,34 0,47 Chainfist 0,12

 

There is also 2 factors to consider. (Rough estimation) 70% of vehicules have effectively 10av (rear), 20% have 12av (walkers), and the last 10% have 14av (LR...). Regarding the above stats, we see that both weapon are fairly similar on 12av. What matters most is the role they are intented to (LR class tanks or not).

 

But the Chainfist (DDCW) brings a meltagun to make up the difference on low av target. IMO, that's better as it gives better chances overall and adds a possibility to assaut transport's content.

[uldrick]

unless you are faciing lots of LR, the ahmmer is the best solution

[Bannus]

As both weapons have their advantages and disadvantages, I'd go with the rule of cool.

 

Whatever looks best. ;)

[Brother Gathurn]

I must admit I'm with Bannus. Frankly their quite close in effectivness. I'm inclined to lean towards the hammer simply because I see more light vehicles, and i think it would make a sweet model.

[red_starrise]

I use an ironclad in a drop pod armed with:

dccw, seismic hammer, heavy flamer, meltagun

 

It has always survived & always dominated the battlefield where it gets in there because there are so few things that are a real threat to it in close combat. I've honestly never had to assault an AV14 tank w/ it as I've usually killed those w/ shooting.

[DarkGuard]

Just throwing it out there that I'd prefer the hammer, the big reason being that it effectively functions as an AP1 weapon. Now a lot of people know why meltas are so handy against vehicles of all kinds, and the reason being is AP1. It turns your chances of killing a vehicle on a pen hit from 33% to 50%, and on a glancing hit from 0% to 16.5% (I think). AP1 is insanely useful, don't underestimate it! Of course the meltagun also has 2D6 pen in half range, so kind of has both (although not S10, that would be mean). In the end it comes down to what you value more, I know I'd pick the hammer 9/10, as with the meltagun as well he can still take on high AV vehicles.

[WarriorFish]

+1 to DCCW/HF and Hammer/MG - the melta coupled with the number of attacks at S10 AP1 an Ironclad can throw out is great. As DarkGuard said AP1 is very potent.

[Master Melta]

+1 more to that load out. I typically run 2 x HKM and a drop pod as well. That comes in at 200 points and when 1 or 2 of these drop in the enemy DZ, they freak out, and rightly so.

 

The only time I don't do a drop pod is in City Fight games. The terrain is heavy, and the fighting is very close quarters, which is of course where the dread excels.

 

Keep in mind this, as with all dreads. They are not close combat specialists. they can crush certain opponents, wreck vehicles and threaten everything, but when they get in close combat, they are as likely to tar pit as they are to win.

[ShinyRhino]

How do folks feel about the Frag Assault Launchers on Ironclads? I typically purchase them on the rare occasion I run an Ironclad, both for the ability to charge unhindered into cover, and to deny the +1A to units charging at my Ironclad. That loss of one attack can be huge when facing powerfists or klaws.

[Master Melta]

never used it myself, but I never care about I when charging the dread. Dreads in combat vs fists of any kind are a liability, but more often than not, the dread shrugs off the attacks.

 

Honestly, the most potent weapons on the ICD are the hammer for destroying vehicles and the flamer for troops. If the melta works, or you are able to tarpit/destroy goons in combat, bonus points.

[DarkGuard]

Honestly, the most potent weapons on the ICD are the hammer for destroying vehicles and the flamer for troops. If the melta works, or you are able to tarpit/destroy goons in combat, bonus points.

 

I've always considered what is better, dual flamer or melta/flamer. It seems to me that while dual flamer is absolutely amazing against infantry, it does constrain you to only one target when Podding etc, unless you shell out extra on HKMs, which aren't even as good as a meltagun IMO. On the other hand, it does mean you don't have to worry too much about confused role, as with a decent amount of attacks on the charge and two flamers you'll clearly be going against infantry, might as well bring the grenade launchers as well! :D

 

But then the melta gives the flexibility on the drop, and enables you to pop transports and assault the guys inside if lucky.

 

You know, it seems to me that in this mech and transport age of 40K the best Dread to have would be one that has two meltas, 2 HKMs, assault launchers and blood talons equivalent, would be very nasty for those units who think they're safe in transports, one can dream :P.

[Master Melta]

Take the melta, dual flamers are great but, like tactical squads, ICDs even in close range podding situations, flexibility is the key. the two HKM are either insurance for the melta or Long range support if you need to drop outside of melta range for stratergy purposes.

[DasPanzerIstUber]

Its been a while since I ran a Dreadnought but do they always hit rear armour like infantry do? If so, the hammer is more likely to be superior. But if you assault a lot of Land Raiders then by all means take the chainfist.

 

Rule of cool is always a great choice though! :blush:

[DarkGuard]

Its been a while since I ran a Dreadnought but do they always hit rear armour like infantry do? If so, the hammer is more likely to be superior. But if you assault a lot of Land Raiders then by all means take the chainfist.

 

Rule of cool is always a great choice though! :lol:

 

Yup they always hit rear armour of vehicles just like infantry do. Of course against other Walkers they only hit front armour, just like infantry do. :P

[MagicMan]

Id probably take the chainfist since the hammer looks so dopey...

[Bannus]

Id probably take the chainfist since the hammer looks so dopey...

I can't disagree with you there - that is why two of my Ironclads have chainfists and the one that does have a hammer uses one I converted from Forge World. A much better looking hammer IMO.

[DarkGuard]

Id probably take the chainfist since the hammer looks so dopey...

I can't disagree with you there - that is why two of my Ironclads have chainfists and the one that does have a hammer uses one I converted from Forge World. A much better looking hammer IMO.

 

I really don't get the hate for the look of the hammer, IMO the chainfist looks a bit silly, doesn't look anywhere as good as the Term ones, although I suppose they couldn't really make it the same. But the hammer looks fine to me, and actually I prefer that to it being like a hammer head at the end of an arm, which would have looked silly. I suppose that's the best thing about this hobby though, something for everyone.

[Captain Idaho]

General consensus is to drop pod Iron Clads, but what experiences do people have of marching Ironclads? It's AV13 so can take a pounding from most ranged weapons and isn't in the danger zone for meltas so quickly. Also you can run to get into the action a little earlier. I'd probably put 2 Hunter Killers on the thing too so you can at least fire at something on the way in.

 

The threat of an Ironclad is very conscious in a player's mind so this could suck in fire away from the rest of the army.

 

Theory of course, but what do people think of a footslogging Ironclad with Melta gun, Storm Bolter and 2 Hunter Killers?