Fluff Question

[Gaeus Marius]

I have been playing my DA as the 3rd Co. for several years now, before that I didn't really specify. I started identifying them as the 3rd just before Medusa V. It seems to me though, that everybody and his brother play the 3rd Co. I went to a local tournement the other day, and there were 3 of us out of the 10 people that showed up. So.... I am going to make a change to the 4th or 5th. My fluff question is wehter or not there is an order of succession/seniority withing the DA ranks? ie: The next GM of the DA will come from the DW, followed by the RW, followed by the 3rd, etc. Does the fact that you are CPT of the 3rd mean you are more senior than the CPT of the 6th, for example. This will not really effect my decision to change, but it just got me thinking......

[Grotsmasha]

I'm gunna go out on a limb and say......no.

 

The reason being, order of seniority would be decided from levels within the Inner Circle/s, which is not ALWAYS indicated by rank in the Chapter at large.

 

Having said that though, someone from the main battle companies is likely to gain experience and trust far more quickly.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Captain Semper]

I have been playing my DA as the 3rd Co. for several years now, before that I didn't really specify. I started identifying them as the 3rd just before Medusa V. It seems to me though, that everybody and his brother play the 3rd Co. I went to a local tournement the other day, and there were 3 of us out of the 10 people that showed up. So.... I am going to make a change to the 4th or 5th. My fluff question is wehter or not there is an order of succession/seniority withing the DA ranks? ie: The next GM of the DA will come from the DW, followed by the RW, followed by the 3rd, etc. Does the fact that you are CPT of the 3rd mean you are more senior than the CPT of the 6th, for example. This will not really effect my decision to change, but it just got me thinking......

 

No relative seniority among Battle Companies (or reserve Companies I should think...). No guarantee that the SGM is necessarily the former Master of the DW either. Progression is more mystical. Captains of the DA companies are all members of the DW and although some might be more "in the know" than others this is not explicit nor is it related to the Company number which is purely logisitcal. The Masters of the DW and the RW are members of the Inner Circle so this indicate some seniority vs. other Masters although there is nothing to exclude the possibility that the Master of , say, the 4th is not also a member of the Inner Circle.

 

As it is largely unexplored, I would like to see GW touching upon the subject of other Circles (between Inner & DW).

 

EDIT: Grotsmasha was faster and to the point! :devil:

 

EDIT 2: I think the popularity of the 2nd is due to its fairly easy to paint mark (a diaginal red line).

[Zincite]

Grotsmasha And Cap' Semper are right. It might also be worth considering that if a Captain has more experience in a certain area, he might be given more over-all command by his fellow captain. As in, a war within a close-built city would favor Assault Squads, and the eight company Captain would probably have more experience in that matter.

 

 

EDIT 2: I think the popularity of the 2nd is due to its fairly easy to paint mark (a diaginal red line).

You mean third. :P

[Captain Semper]

Grotsmasha And Cap' Semper are right. It might also be worth considering that if a Captain has more experience in a certain area, he might be given more over-all command by his fellow captain. As in, a war within a close-built city would favor Assault Squads, and the eight company Captain would probably have more experience in that matter.

 

 

EDIT 2: I think the popularity of the 2nd is due to its fairly easy to paint mark (a diaginal red line).

You mean third. :)

 

 

Yes, yes :P the 3rd!!! Hahaha! Penitence self flagellation is in order!

[Gaeus Marius]

I figured as much, but I still can't help wondering what the Inner Circle Hiearchy is. Would not a member of greater standing/seniority be put in positions of greater responsibility? In other Chapters, you see different Commanders holding positions such as Master of the Fleet, etc. Within the DA however, wouldn't those positions be given to members of rank within the DW/inner circle? Obviously you don't have to be "in the know" to fill these positions, but it could be assumed that those with greater knowledge would be given the position in order to better facilitate our hidden agenda? If you think of it that way, then an order of succession is not so far fetched, especially where the more specialized DW and RW formations are concerned. Not trying to beat a dead horse here, I just find it interesting.

I assumed the tendency toward the 3rd was painting based as well, which is one of the reasons I am making my change...

[Captain Semper]

I figured as much, but I still can't help wondering what the Inner Circle Hiearchy is. Would not a member of greater standing/seniority be put in positions of greater responsibility?

 

Sure thing!

 

In other Chapters, you see different Commanders holding positions such as Master of the Fleet, etc. Within the DA however, wouldn't those positions be given to members of rank within the DW/inner circle? Obviously you don't have to be "in the know" to fill these positions, but it could be assumed that those with greater knowledge would be given the position in order to better facilitate our hidden agenda?

 

Well these positions are usually held by Captains if C:SM is anything to go by (and it is). The equivalent rank for DAs is Company Masters that are all members of the Deathwing (or better). So you are correct to assume these offices are held by members of the DW/Inner Circle. A notable exception is the Master of the Forge that as a Techmarine is not a member of the DW due to potential loyalties conflict.

 

If you think of it that way, then an order of succession is not so far fetched, especially where the more specialized DW and RW formations are concerned. Not trying to beat a dead horse here, I just find it interesting.

 

OK you are opening a big issue here: The issue of succession! It all starts with the SPG that is solely responsible to name his successor. Other than being a member of the Inner Circle I don't think there are (currently) any other restrictions. Which of course generates the question: what happens if the SGM dies before naming a successor? One can work out theories of how this works but there is nothing explicit in the Codex... As regards the chain of military command it is no different than any other chapter. I mean what about BAs? Is there seniority among Captains? Well with the exception of the 1st Captain, I doubt it.

 

I think there are two different structures in a DA Chapter: The purely military one (same as any other Chapter) and the variuos Circles of Knowledge. Now the two do not necessarily go hand in hand. That means that you could have to Veteran Sergeants of which one is a Deathwing member and one is, well, not. Although at par as far as military rank goes they are not the same in terms of knowledge. The Inner Circle surely takes the appropriate steps to place the right people in the right position within the Chapter.

[Cactus]

I expect that those who are 'in the know' could take a stab at make an educated guess as to who the next Supreme Grand Master will be. Of course they may not know as much as they think they know so all we know for sure is that we don't know. It would be crazy not to have some succession plan in place though, even if it's an informal 'word in your ear' type of thing.

 

In everyday terms I've always thought of Master of a Battle Company as a more prestigious, if not more senior, position than Master of a Reserve Company, and Master of the Ravenwing and Master of the Deathwing being more prestigious still due to the elite nature of those forces.

 

As Zincite says, operational seniority will be influenced by experience in the type of action being undertaken.

 

I assumed the prevalence of 3rd company armies was down to the studio armies, and therefore the pictures in the books and on the boxes, being painted in 3rd company livery. I know I copied the colour scheme from Codex: Angels of Death before repainting as 4th company when 3rd edition came round - a decision I took to make my models a little different from everyone else's. Also, back in the day the Dark Angels vehicle transfer sheet had a 3rd company badge which made that an easier option.

[Gaeus Marius]

Captain Semper: I agree with everything you've said, and I know it's not specified in the Codex per-say. I was wondering if there was an order of succession fluff-wise in the BL novels or other works. It does seem to me that though the right to name his successor is given to the SGM, there would be a rigid line of succession within the ranks, both organizationally and within the Inner Circle, at the very least as a contingency. If in instance such as Cactus described occured, or something along the lines of Rynnsworld, there would have to be something in place. Especially for the most maticulous Chapter. The DA are, after all, Sons of the Lion. Planning down to the last detail seems genetic.

[Captain Semper]

The DAs are not straight forward. There is no pyramidic chain of command but circles within circles... We leave the clear cut chain of command to the UM :P. BL is not shedding any light on internal organization of the 40k DAs more than what is mentioned in the Codex. Although "Angels of Darkness" shows splendidly how

an Interrogator Chaplain - a fairly senior individual obviously- was oblivious to the fact that his apothecary was also Inner Circle. Does this make said Apothecary more senior in the Chapter's power structure? It seems so to me.

 

 

For the DAs it is all secrets, half truths and outright lies. The military command chain is as straight forward as in any other Chapter. The exact balances of power though even within the Inner Circle are (deliberately) unclear. Another thing to consider is the fact that the Inner Circle spans accross all Unforgiven. That sort of disperses the risk of a Rynn's World incident. But hey, a lot of the darker areas of the Unforgiven are left to the individual hobbyist to work out.

 

For example, some like the Unforgiven chapters to be interconnected to the point that they act as the old Legion (I'm one of them) whereas others see this relation as a loose one that translates to co-operation on certain missions regarding the Fallen. There is nothing conclusive either way so it's up to you. I'm certain when the new Codex comes out some loose ends will be addressed and others might be created. Mystery in the Unforgiven internal workings is part of the charm :).

[Brother Immolator]

Ill throw my 2 chips.In my point of view selecting a company master in general is based on two things:Battle prowess combined with tactical prowess.

In the DA and successors you have to add trust in the mix.

 

Once a marine progresses and is considered worthy to join the first company,the true tests begin IMHO.If the marine proves himself continuously both in combat abilities and truthfully in regards to the chapters secret agenda then he is considered to lead a company.

I believe most are assigned to their respective companies whence they came for morale reasons but that cant always be the case.

 

On the matter regarding elevating the master of the deathwing to the position of Supreme grand master i believe it makes absolute sense.To be found worthy of leading the best veteran marines in the imperium you have to prove yourself as their better.And in order to be into that position it means you have proven yourself in face of the fallen time and again.So who better than the best of the best to lead the legion(in regards to the supreme grand masters role as leader of the successors)?

 

EDIT:The master of the forge is a member of the inner circle.He is the only techmarine that is.Whoever he is only privy to certain secrets it would seem.

Unless we get a formal fluff regarding the circles within circles of the inner circle(confused yet?),we cant know what the secret hierarchy is or what each member knows.

 

OK you are opening a big issue here: The issue of succession! It all starts with the SPG that is solely responsible to name his successor. Other than being a member of the Inner Circle I don't think there are (currently) any other restrictions. Which of course generates the question: what happens if the SGM dies before naming a successor? One can work out theories of how this works but there is nothing explicit in the Codex... As regards the chain of military command it is no different than any other chapter. I mean what about BAs? Is there seniority among Captains? Well with the exception of the 1st Captain, I doubt it.

 

It would be safe to assume that there is a contingency plan that would take effect immediately.Perhaps there are two that are chosen.One is named and there is something left behind to choose the other until the first names his successor?The watchers have a hand in the succession in case of death?Speculation.However something like that makes sense since only the SMG knows about luther and it would be foolish that to end with his death.

 

I think there are two different structures in a DA Chapter: The purely military one (same as any other Chapter) and the variuos Circles of Knowledge. Now the two do not necessarily go hand in hand. That means that you could have to Veteran Sergeants of which one is a Deathwing member and one is, well, not. Although at par as far as military rank goes they are not the same in terms of knowledge. The Inner Circle surely takes the appropriate steps to place the right people in the right position within the Chapter.

 

That is the most plausible i can think off.

 

I

 

an Interrogator Chaplain - a fairly senior individual obviously- was oblivious to the fact that his apothecary was also Inner Circle. Does this make said Apothecary more senior in the Chapter's power structure? It seems so to me.

 

 

Or the circle members dont know other circle members and only the circle leaders are required to know each other?Who knows?

 

[Captain Semper]

On the matter regarding elevating the master of the deathwing to the position of Supreme grand master i believe it makes absolute sense.To be found worthy of leading the best veteran marines in the imperium you have to prove yourself as their better.And in order to be into that position it means you have proven yourself in face of the fallen time and again.So who better than the best of the best to lead the legion(in regards to the supreme grand masters role as leader of the successors)?

 

If the Master of the DW was to be a successor to the position of the SPG then it wouldn't really be a surprise would it? Anybody would know who the next in line is. But this is not the case. It is the perogative of the SGM to name his successor and although the Master of the DW is always a good candidate it is equally possible to be someone else.

 

EDIT:The master of the forge is a member of the inner circle.He is the only techmarine that is.Whoever he is only privy to certain secrets it would seem.

 

Yesss... kind of strange wording in the Codex. It says that he is privy to some secrets of the Inner Circle... Does this make him Inner Circle? Probably yes, sort of...

 

OK you are opening a big issue here: The issue of succession! It all starts with the SPG that is solely responsible to name his successor. Other than being a member of the Inner Circle I don't think there are (currently) any other restrictions. Which of course generates the question: what happens if the SGM dies before naming a successor? One can work out theories of how this works but there is nothing explicit in the Codex... As regards the chain of military command it is no different than any other chapter. I mean what about BAs? Is there seniority among Captains? Well with the exception of the 1st Captain, I doubt it.

 

It would be safe to assume that there is a contingency plan that would take effect immediately.Perhaps there are two that are chosen.One is named and there is something left behind to choose the other until the first names his successor?The watchers have a hand in the succession in case of death?Speculation.However something like that makes sense since only the SMG knows about luther and it would be foolish that to end with his death.

 

That's exactly it. One can make his own rationalization. Nothing specific in the Codex. I think DAs is probably the only Chapter that people are concerned about such things - and rightly so. DAs is all about fluff!!!

 

I

 

an Interrogator Chaplain - a fairly senior individual obviously- was oblivious to the fact that his apothecary was also Inner Circle. Does this make said Apothecary more senior in the Chapter's power structure? It seems so to me.

 

 

Or the circle members dont know other circle members and only the circle leaders are required to know each other?Who knows?

 

 

 

Well, the Apothecary seems to have the advantage here. He knows Boreas is an Int. Chaplain and therefore a member of the Inner Circle whereas Boreas doesn't know Nestor is a member of the Inner Circle. In fact he didn't even know he was a member of the DW! So in a sense Nestor holds knowledge that Boreas doesn't. Won't that place him above Boreas somehow? I think yes. And Nestor is NOT Circle leader at all.

 

[Brother Immolator]

Well my friend as i said it was only my 2 chips :huh:

 

I dont advocate that the new SGM should always be the Master of the deathwing.But its a logical and well founded choice.

Or you could say, that he has the qualities that give him a statistical(not in game terms,i speak of chances)advantage.After all if you reach the rank of Master of the deathwing you have been judged and found found true.I stress again:I dont say that this is/should be,the case 100% of time.But if you consider it,its one of the best options.Az himself is one of those and thats probably the reason people believe the master of the deathwing to be the defacto successor.

 

 

EDIT:The master of the forge is a member of the inner circle.He is the only techmarine that is.Whoever he is only privy to certain secrets it would seem.

 

Yesss... kind of strange wording in the Codex. It says that he is privy to some secrets of the Inner Circle... Does this make him Inner Circle? Probably yes, sort of...

 

If you look pg 15 in the organization chart of the chapter the master of the forge is in the inner circle.And something else:Now that i look into it,it seems that the inner circle is indeed different from the deathwing,that puts the question at rest i believe.

 

As for our spoiler:Well i really dont remember the details,i have years to read the book,i used your example to convey my thoughts.As i said nothing in regards to those topics is cast in stone yet.But you are on the right here.

What strikes me odd though is that it is not common knowledge that Nestor is of the DW.Perhaps the writer mixed it up with the inner circle as most people do?Or is it a hint that the members of the DW are hidden too?I think the last one is a bit far fetched.

 

[Grand Master Neo]

don't remember where i read it but it states somewhere that the grandmaster of the librarians (ezekiel) is privvy to whom the next SGM will be in case of the worst case scenario

[Vazzy]

Well, for the fan fic I'm writing, the Watchers have seen that Azrael will die soon and encourage him to choose a successor

Azrael wants Belial, but the watchers feel he is unsuited and encourage him to pick the captain of the 3rd. The conversation is in the short stories if anyone is interested. Search Sons of the Lion

[Captain Semper]

As for our spoiler:Well i really dont remember the details,i have years to read the book,i used your example to convey my thoughts.As i said nothing in regards to those topics is cast in stone yet.But you are on the right here.

What strikes me odd though is that it is not common knowledge that Nestor is of the DW.Perhaps the writer mixed it up with the inner circle as most people do?Or is it a hint that the members of the DW are hidden too?I think the last one is a bit far fetched.

 

So this is how it works in my view: When you are deemed worthy you become a member of the DW. This is not advertised nor is it common knowledge. IF you are asked to join the 1st Company then it is obvious you are a member of the DW (since they only recruit inducted members). So other DW members (1st Company or not) are aware of your progression. But there are other DW members that are not in the 1st Comp. and never were. In 3rd edition it was an option to upgrade a Vet. Sergerant to DW for example. These DW members stay in their respective companies because the Inner Circle beleives it serves their aims better. Such individuals are not identified by any particular insignia. What happened in Angels of Darkness is exactly such a case. Nestor was deemed DW worthy but was not a member of the 1st Company. So his membership was (apparently) only known to some in the Inner Circle. As years progressed (more than 600 as a matter of fact) Nestor was deemed worthy to progerss to the Inner Circle. The Leadership of the Chapter then assigned him in Pischina without notifying the resident Int. Chaplain for reasons of their own. Nestor obviously knew that Boreas is Inner Circle (the latter being Interrogator) but it did not work vice versa. DAs in 40k is a paranoid organization. Interestingly Nestor had a particular agenda and did not reveal his status despite everything the DAs went through until the moment that he absolutely had to.

 

Well, for the fan fic I'm writing, the Watchers have seen that Azrael will die soon and encourage him to choose a successor

Azrael wants Belial, but the watchers feel he is unsuited and encourage him to pick the captain of the 3rd. The conversation is in the short stories if anyone is interested. Search Sons of the Lion

 

Sound very interesting! Can you post a link, because the search function is not delivering results...

[Vazzy]

@CaptainSemper link is in my sig.

[Brother dean]

Just to throw another fluff wrench in, "Back in the day" Companies had two masters, A company Master and a Company Grand Master, Company master ran the company (XO?) and the Company Grand Master ran the speciality, "Master of the watch, Armory, Fleet, etc.) and denoted Inner circle that way. The new fluff purposely obscures this distinction and makes the Chapter/Inner Circle workings more obscure.

[Brother Immolator]

What needs to be done IMHO fluff wise,is to be given a proper understanding between the differences and relations of the inner circle and deathwing.

That has to be something more than a simple layout though.We need to learn how they interact and when and how each org has the structure it has today.