BJORNin83 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 BJORNin83, you should buy Garro audiobooks. I've thought about it. I guess there's stuff in there I need to know? :-) Nevermind, I cheated and accidentally read a piece from Lexicanum. Needless to say, thats awesome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2916996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Orlok Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 BJORNin83, you should buy Garro audiobooks. I've thought about it. I guess there's stuff in there I need to know? :-) Nevermind, I cheated and accidentally read a piece from Lexicanum. Needless to say, thats awesome! Get the audio books as well. They're very good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2917272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 From my knowledge of changes. Starting with oldest to newest. 4. SPOILER for OUTCAST DEAD!!!!!!!---> Magnus warns the emperor but this is after the dropsite massacre so not only did Magnus break the psychic defenses but he was LATE!!! It is commented that Russ was sent to bring Magnus back in chains. But I also think it was implied/mentioned they were sent to destroy . There is a lot going on in this book so can't remember. This is the most divergent of the path we were on. And quite puzzling. Basically Graham McNeill has gotten the timeline completely wrong, and we should probably just disregard this book entirely. In addition to the other problems with this book, why is that a Thousand Son marine in the slammer when Magnus has not committed "treason" yet ? Given that ADB says they have meetings about the HH to make sure it stays on track, I'm amazed that these things slipped through... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2917503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 From my knowledge of changes. Starting with oldest to newest. 4. SPOILER for OUTCAST DEAD!!!!!!!---> Magnus warns the emperor but this is after the dropsite massacre so not only did Magnus break the psychic defenses but he was LATE!!! It is commented that Russ was sent to bring Magnus back in chains. But I also think it was implied/mentioned they were sent to destroy . There is a lot going on in this book so can't remember. This is the most divergent of the path we were on. And quite puzzling. Basically Graham McNeill has gotten the timeline completely wrong, and we should probably just disregard this book entirely. In addition to the other problems with this book, why is that a Thousand Son marine in the slammer when Magnus has not committed "treason" yet ? Given that ADB says they have meetings about the HH to make sure it stays on track, I'm amazed that these things slipped through... Although I do like that Magnus was late as it weighs more heavily on his error, I agree there appears there is no synergy between the authors. On the T Son outcast, I assumed he used his powers against the edict, but it was not made clear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2917810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chaplain Ryld Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 And how does Horus influence Russ to attack Prospero after Magnus contacts the Emperor if everyone knows Horus has turned? I can't imagine that the Emperor would send Russ and not have Russ know what happened at Istvaan V. :) Or is Horus's interference old fluff and I am mistaken? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2917986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 And how does Horus influence Russ to attack Prospero after Magnus contacts the Emperor if everyone knows Horus has turned? I can't imagine that the Emperor would send Russ and not have Russ know what happened at Istvaan V. :lol: Or is Horus's interference old fluff and I am mistaken? It is all messed up right now if you go by "Outcast Dead". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2917994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 It's not just that there's no synergy between authors- it's that the same author (Graham McNeill) ignores stuff he's written before. As I recall, it was in False Gods and A Thousand Sons that he portrayed Horus as influencing Russ to take extreme measures against Magnus. But in The Outcast Dead, he throws it out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2917998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 As I see it, the Horus Heresy series is about showing the events from different views and angles. The books include hundreds of persons and events, hence tons of information. And just like in real life, especially in times of war, there will be contradictory information. When looking at history it is very hard to extract truth from all the informations, and to decide when things happend excatly. When reading the books you have to imagine the "sources" behind the book come from these times, and therfore they are subject to the same criteria that apply information and sources in reality. All we can say for certain is the battle for Prospero happend sometine between Horus turning and some point after Isstvan V. In the end I would just like to share a thought. In space-time, time is not the same. Every event has it's own personal time. So time in galaxy runs different, depending on what you are observing. And taking the Immaterium into account, and how this dimension can affect our dimension, it could be that for the Sons of Magnus and the Vlka Fenryka, Isstvan V hasn't happend yet, but on Isstvan V and Terra it has. It's a weird and disturbing thought, but it could explain a lot of the "chronological problems". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2918024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 As I see it, the Horus Heresy series is about showing the events from different views and angles. The books include hundreds of persons and events, hence tons of information. And just like in real life, especially in times of war, there will be contradictory information. When looking at history it is very hard to extract truth from all the informations, and to decide when things happend excatly. When reading the books you have to imagine the "sources" behind the book come from these times, and therfore they are subject to the same criteria that apply information and sources in reality. All we can say for certain is the battle for Prospero happend sometine between Horus turning and some point after Isstvan V. In the end I would just like to share a thought. In space-time, time is not the same. Every event has it's own personal time. So time in galaxy runs different, depending on what you are observing. And taking the Immaterium into account, and how this dimension can affect our dimension, it could be that for the Sons of Magnus and the Vlka Fenryka, Isstvan V hasn't happend yet, but on Isstvan V and Terra it has. It's a weird and disturbing thought, but it could explain a lot of the "chronological problems". That may all be true, but the reader must be enlightened to this fact. Just like how Night Lords feel it's been 300 or so years from the heresy and to the rest of the Imperium it was 10k years ago. It's explained. There is no explanation to "right" the reader. And if Terra knew of the heresy prior to Magnus's actions why were they not sent to deal with Horus, especially if that was their purpose? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2918176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjornsval Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Just finished Outcast Dead. In the later chapter of the book. The custode that is with the hunters. When he gets the new orders changing their mission to a kill mission. He mentions Constantin Valdor drawing his blade. I got the feeling from the paragraph that with Valdor going with Russ. If he knew that the emperor wanted Magnus alive he would have stopped russ from killing Magnus. What i am getting is that maybe Valdor might have influenced Russ to go outside the mission of retrieving Magnus. Honestly,The Emperors #1 body guard is going to be mighty pissed that a primarch has turned on his lord. being sent with Russ,gives him a perfect chance to get some revenge on the ingrate sons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2922586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereticus81 Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I'm with Lord Ragnarok insofar as McNeill has fudged up with regard to the timing of Magnus shattering the defences round the Imperial Palace and breaking a massive gap in the webway through which countless daemons flow. As i understood it prior to this book Magnus projected himself to Terra sometime between Horus fell in False Gods and the 'cleansing' on Isstvan 3 however the Emperor didn't believe Magnus and was rightfully pissed at Magnus basically giving the Daemons a portal right into the Emperors lab. The Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra however Horus using his role as the Warmaster, still believed by nearly all to be loyal, altered the orders slightly. After all Magnus knew what had happened and if I was Horus I wouldn't want the second most powerful Psyker in the galaxy linking up with the most powerful Psyker in the galaxy against me! This book seriously fudges that up and renders certain things utterly nonsensical. They should have never included the bit about Horus altering the orders to Russ and I suspect that this was something included to make the Emperor seem more benevolent (I have problems with the Emperor and the decisions he took with the Primarchs but there are other threads to go into that). Beyond messing up the timeline though I really enjoyed this book, it started slowly but got better and better. I loved the potrayal of astropaths, and some of the concepts will be nicked for my Dark Heresy game, and liked the glimpses of the Thunder Warriors but the timeline... ugh I'll ignore that bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2923097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezzy Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 The Outcast Dead was a disaster of a book, really not what I expected when it comes to the usual high standards of McNeill and BL. The timelines and key interactions (Horus mentions that he speaks to Russ on his way to Prospero) are all in disarray, contradicting the underpinnings set up in the rest of the series (particularly the original trilogy, The First Heretic and the Prospero duology.) The nuts and bolts things like grammar, spelling of names and layout of The Outcast Dead were wrong too. I think this will have to be just swept under the rug like some of the other novels in the series. McNeill will storm back with his next effort though I'm sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2933487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watch-commander Albus Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Was it implied in the book that the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons and Custodes were only sent to Prospero after the news of Istvann V? I had the impression that they were already well on their way by then. It does not solve the timing issue, but I think it is important. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2934438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 In addition to the other problems with this book, why is that a Thousand Son marine in the slammer when Magnus has not committed "treason" yet ? It's alluded to in the book that the Crusader Host had Marines from both loyalist and traitor legions, and that all were in the prison regardless of where their legion stood (it's specifically mentioned that Atharva only released Marines from known traitor legions). The implication seems to be that the entire Host was imprisoned for an as yet unknown reason, with no distinction made regarding the loyalty of each Marine's legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2934483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fission Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 First of all sorry with my poor english speaking . In the Outcast Dead we learn that the the counterattack on Istvaan 5 is a failure : ok A few time later Magnus make is error coming in the webway and breaching the portal on Terra : I supposed , with the older book, that he did it before the drop site massacre , but allright . With this action the Emperor decide to send Russ on Prospero . BUT in the Aurelian introduction , the renegade primarch have a meeting which happen 4 days after Istvaan 5 , ans in this introduction we learn that Magnus has already retired on the Sorcerer's planet . That mean that the massacre of the drop site , the coming of Magnus on Terra , and the destruction of Prospero happens in less that 4 days ???!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2954963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Something I haven't seen addressed yet - related but not really impacting on the timeline issues/confusion: I know Horus is the Warmaster, with certain authority over the other legions...but if Russ was tasked directly by the Emperor to bring in Magnus, what can Horus do to override that? I mean, I get that if nothing else he can influence and push Russ towards deciding Magnus can't be trusted to remain alive, but if Russ is loyal to the Emperor, and the Emperor has given him a direct order specifying Magnus' return to Terra alive.... I mean, it seems like our options are either Horus directly overrides an order from the Emperor, or Russ is willing to ignore a direct order from the Emperor to do what he himself pleases (with influence from Horus). Either way, I don't know how believable that is. Russ is head-strong, but willing to disobey the Emperor's wording or allowing an order from Horus to override one from the Emperor, Warmaster-title not-withstanding? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2955492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Something I haven't seen addressed yet - related but not really impacting on the timeline issues/confusion: I know Horus is the Warmaster, with certain authority over the other legions...but if Russ was tasked directly by the Emperor to bring in Magnus, what can Horus do to override that? I mean, I get that if nothing else he can influence and push Russ towards deciding Magnus can't be trusted to remain alive, but if Russ is loyal to the Emperor, and the Emperor has given him a direct order specifying Magnus' return to Terra alive.... I mean, it seems like our options are either Horus directly overrides an order from the Emperor, or Russ is willing to ignore a direct order from the Emperor to do what he himself pleases (with influence from Horus). Either way, I don't know how believable that is. Russ is head-strong, but willing to disobey the Emperor's wording or allowing an order from Horus to override one from the Emperor, Warmaster-title not-withstanding? It is the Warmaster who gives Russ the orders from the Emperor. Russ has no reason to doubt Horus' word and takes the modified orders in faith. What I'm curious about is not how Magnus could still keep his traitor allegiance knowing it was Horus' doing, but how Russ feels when he discovers Horus is a traitor. Presumably he would eventually have discovered the truth of those orders and the fact that he was the traitor's cats-paw. I wonder how Russ and his legion handle that enlightenment, knowing they wrongfully attempted to end a then loyal legion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2956354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Something I haven't seen addressed yet - related but not really impacting on the timeline issues/confusion: I know Horus is the Warmaster, with certain authority over the other legions...but if Russ was tasked directly by the Emperor to bring in Magnus, what can Horus do to override that? I mean, I get that if nothing else he can influence and push Russ towards deciding Magnus can't be trusted to remain alive, but if Russ is loyal to the Emperor, and the Emperor has given him a direct order specifying Magnus' return to Terra alive.... I mean, it seems like our options are either Horus directly overrides an order from the Emperor, or Russ is willing to ignore a direct order from the Emperor to do what he himself pleases (with influence from Horus). Either way, I don't know how believable that is. Russ is head-strong, but willing to disobey the Emperor's wording or allowing an order from Horus to override one from the Emperor, Warmaster-title not-withstanding? It is the Warmaster who gives Russ the orders from the Emperor. Russ has no reason to doubt Horus' word and takes the modified orders in faith. What I'm curious about is not how Magnus could still keep his traitor allegiance knowing it was Horus' doing, but how Russ feels when he discovers Horus is a traitor. Presumably he would eventually have discovered the truth of those orders and the fact that he was the traitor's cats-paw. I wonder how Russ and his legion handle that enlightenment, knowing they wrongfully attempted to end a then loyal legion Sources are actually conflicted on who ordered Russ to Prospero. the inclusion of the Adeptus Custodes (in strength) and the Sisters of Silence imply, to me, that the Emperor ordered Russ to Prospero. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2956739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 The closest thing to input from the Warmaster is the statement in False Gods that he "illuminated Russ as to the full extent of Magnus's sorceries". According to Galaxy in Flames, Horus is already aware that Magnus has used sorcery to escape from Prospero with his Legion- immediately before the Istvaan III massacre, and quite some time before Istvaan V. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2957454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurelian Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 indeed, timeline is not correct. A Thousand Sons, The Outcast Dead, and those short but important parts from Galaxy in Flames are not synchronised. Dear Mr. Dembski-Bowden, we cry out for your help!! I think i can speak in everyone's name, those at least who have not given up all hope, that you are our only hope of enlightment. What will be the fate of the HH series, beloved by all? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2962614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 What will be the fate of the HH series, beloved by all? More books will come ? Besides what is have to do with ADB ? Why is he supposed to be a savior like figure ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2962703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Maybe because he's the only Heresy writer whose books haven't incurred the wrath of at least some section of the fandom? I've not seen anything in the way of complaints about his portrayal of the Night Lords or the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2962716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I think it's disingenious to assume that one writer how matter good can salvage an entire team based series especially when it is not bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2962763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 True. "Most consistantly liked books" (if this is indeed the case) does not necessarily equate to "Able to fix all messes previously made". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2962807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Help us Aaron Dembski-Bowden, youre our only hope... Honestly though some continuity errors will occur in a cannonical universe where time is theoretical and simply travelling could adjust when you left or arrived. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240813-magnus-russ-and-horus/page/2/#findComment-2963020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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