BlkTom Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 I am hoping in a few months this will not be an issue when 6th Ed comes out, but I have been seeing people trying to pull 'You check LoS first and then if your Rhino is 3 inches away but not in the weapons 45% arc you can instead shoot the enemy 20" ahead of you." To me, the blatent ignoring of the pivot rule makes me beat my head against the wall. When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that it's guns are aimed at the target (assume that that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45%, like hull mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along it's barrel, as normal for vehicles. This pivoting in the shooting phase does not count as moving and repersents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles. Keep in mind however that the walker will probably remain in this direction until it's next movement phase, so it's facing will determind where it's rear armor is going to be when the enemy returns fire! pg 72 BRB Fire Frenzy At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice! pg 40 CSM Dex So... am I wrong when I read this that I have to pivot my Dread and then shoot or is there some super secret rule out there that I am missing that allows someone to check LoS first and /then/ pivot so you don't have to frag your own troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 No, you are not wrong. I agree that the Dread pivots then checks the LOS and range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiisil Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Most of the time LOS should be easy to draw from the Dread to the closest unit at a glance without pivoting. Also anyone who wants to say that because their Rhino which is 3" and directly behind the Dread can't be a target is well in my opinion a complete idiot. page 40 Codex Chaos Space Marines "Fire Frenzy"...It must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!).... It clearly says right there that the Dreadnaught pivots to face the closest unit and if that Rhino is it... well that Rhino is being shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkTom Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 I am trying to explain this to some poor SOB on a different site and his head got filled with this non-sense of LoS rules and the like. They are telling him that throwing a Multi-Melta on his Dread is fine because he will not slag his stuff on a fire frenzy because they feel you can not draw LoS to to friendly stuff before you pivot. I don't care if he uses a Dread or not, as long as he accepts it may bite him in the butt. Here is what I am dealing with... I am just coping and pasting from their thread.. When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that it's guns are aimed at the target (assume that that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45%, like hull mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along it's barrel, as normal for vehicles. This pivoting in the shooting phase does not count as moving and repersents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles. Keep in mind however that the walker will probably remain in this direction until it's next movement phase, so it's facing will determind where it's rear armor is going to be when the enemy returns fire! pg 72 BRB Fire Frenzy At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice! pg 40 CSM Dex Yeah... how are you ignoring the pivot rule to not shoot your own stuff? The crux of your argument, taken from the other thread is: BlkTom wrote: No where in the FAQ or in the books do they say your limited in the vision of the walker. If you use that as precedent, I can use anyone's LoS for virtually anything. You are saying that when rules pertaining to a unit ask for vision, they do not mean the unit's LoS. Indeed, you are saying that LoS is a moot term, and in order to draw vision to the target it must merely be on the board. I disagree. In the paragraph you cited, the Dreadnought pivoted before it was asked for LoS to its target. During Fire Frenzy, the Dreadnought must "pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit." It has to determine what the closest visible unit is before it can pivot. The only things visible to a Dreadnought are units within the 45 degree arches of its guns. Thus we look down its guns, find the target, bring both guns to bear, and fire twice. If the rule was written so he could spin around and shoot units behind it, it would say: "At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot towards the closest unit (friend or foe!), check for line of sight, and fire all of its weapons against it - twice! If the unit is not in line of sight, it pivots towards the next closest target, and so on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 This is how they describe it on the INAT FAQ (unofficial Midwest FAQ) – Q: Will a Chaos Dreadnought suffering from „Fire Frenzy‟ pivot to face a target directly behind itself (if that is the closest target)? A: No. The Dreadnought selects the closest target within the 45 degree arc of fire of any of its weapons and then pivots to face that target [clarification]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiisil Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Just one more reason why I personally feel that INAT FAQ is a crock of BS, the rules clearly state that the model pivots to face the nearest visible unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkTom Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 Wow... that is a terrible rule. I am glad it is unofficial. I have no idea that the pivot rule blew so many minds when it seems so simple to me... maybe it is my Battletech background. The better way of explaining this is to pretty much prevent people from torso twisting and getting a free 360 degree arc of fire with no reprocussions. The basic idea about it is say there is a target 90 degrees to your Dread's right with the rest of the enemy to his front facing. He can pivot 45 degrees and then swivel his weapon 45 degrees to fire on the target to his right. All the enemies to his direct front and right still have to deal with his front AV. The enemy to the direct front left get side AV shots on him. This is suppose to prevent the Dread from pivoting 180 degrees and slaging stuff to his rear and then 'torso twist' back to not expose his rear armor. That rule above just completily ignores the ability to pivot from this aspect of the rule... "This pivoting in the shooting phase does not count as moving and repersents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles." I have no idea where they are getting LoS rules when the walker has none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Some people seem to think that as you check line of sight from the weapon, what the weapon sees is what is visible to the Dread. I have always measured to the closest unit, and then turned and shot it, even if it is right behind me, as I assume the dread has some sort of sensor bundle that will let it detect things within range (other wise it wouldn't be able to see much at all, especially those dreads with letterbox style "view" ports). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 GW fails to clarify the difference between "visible" and "in line of sight", using the two terms almost interchangeably. Dreadnought weapons LoS is traced in a 45' fire arc from the weapons mount. So if "visible" means "in line of sight", then he is technically correct. It's rules-lawyering, but then again Chaos Dreads are garbage as they are written right now so I generally don't quibble with my Choas opponents over this one. For me, it's a gentlemans agreement : if he wants to field a Dread, I'm willing to allow this interpretation. If I really want it to work that he'll pivot 180' and smoke his own guys, he just won't bother to put one in the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkTom Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 Well, what these people seem to desperatily cling to is that the walker does not pivot to the closest thing because it can only see what is in it's weapons arcs. To me, that is..well, wrong. Nothing /anywhere/ states any unit in the game has limited or restricted visibility. Determinding weapon LoS...absolutily. Not arguing that at all. But I will argue that what these people term as visibility and 'line of sight' of it's weapons is a gross interpitation of the rules in a poor attempt to get around the Fire Frenzy rule. Thread was locked due to nerd rage of the hoard of people railing against me on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 @BlkTom : I agree. The problem with this debate is that GW doesn't define terms such as visible. "Line of Sight" they define(ie. visible from the models eyes, or weapon mounts in the case of vehicles). "Visible" is not defined anywhere in the book(unlike in 2nd edition where models had a 90' field of vision, which was then changed to models having a 360' field of vision). And yet the term is used several times throughout the BRB, and often used synonymously with "in line of sight". Thus my earlier statement : If "visible" = "in line of sight" the argument holds water, If "visible" ≠ "in line of sight" then GW has once again failed at writting clear, concise, and complete rules. But what the writters intent was, is unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Most of the time LOS should be easy to draw from the Dread to the closest unit at a glance without pivoting. Also anyone who wants to say that because their Rhino which is 3" and directly behind the Dread can't be a target is well in my opinion a complete idiot. page 40 Codex Chaos Space Marines "Fire Frenzy"...It must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!).... It clearly says right there that the Dreadnaught pivots to face the closest unit and if that Rhino is it... well that Rhino is being shot. This is how they describe it on the INAT FAQ (unofficial Midwest FAQ) – Q: Will a Chaos Dreadnought suffering from „Fire Frenzy‟ pivot to face a target directly behind itself (if that is the closest target)? A: No. The Dreadnought selects the closest target within the 45 degree arc of fire of any of its weapons and then pivots to face that target [clarification]. While I disagree with a lot of INAT rulings I agree with this one... As people have pointed out... what is visible? and no they are not idiots... please read the wording... it must pivot on the spot towards the nearest visible unit... again what is visible? So if the rhino is not visible there is no need to pivot towards it... then why add in that it must pivot? Because If my dreadnought could see 360 degrees (or even if it can't) I could see a unit but I could stand in a position where I can't fire my weapons because my weapons LOS is outside of my units LOS... Even if the dread can only see what its weapons can see (Does this bring up the issue of if it can charge without any weapons left ;)? Do you need LOS to charge?) I could see a unit with my stormbolter/heavy flamer in my CC arm and then not pivot... So that I don't shoot them with my big gun... So you find the unit that bis visible... as this isn't really defined... I understand this to mean LOS and I'm happy to accept weapons or front visor slot if it makes a difference.... If someone says sensor bundles then the next time my tactical can't draw LOS, I'll just say LOLZ I have a scanner... They are on my models... So yeah... find the nearest visible unit (If someone can define this within the game... that would help... as I say I go along what was given for LOS...), THEN you pivot... and THEN you fire. You DON'T pivot towards the nearest unit and then fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiisil Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Hellios, consider this for a minute, under normal circumstances Dreadnaughts (and other walkers for that matter) are allowed to pivot in the shooting phase before determining if a unit is in line of sight to it's weapons (Main book page 71 under "Walkers Shooting" third paragraph). Next Fire Frenzy requires you to pivot to face the nearest visible unit before drawing line of sight (Codex Chaos Space Marines page 40 or just look at what both myself and BlkTom have quoted). Now the RAW tells us Pivot first but that trash of an FAQ called INAT tells us we are not allowed to, which do we follow? RAW of course and if that means your Rhino is 3" directly behind the Dread then your Dread will do a 180 about face and fire on the Rhino presenting it's rear armour to the enemy. And for arguments sake we will just say that the Dread pivots on the spot 360 to determine who is the nearest visible then turns to face them as there is no limit to pivoting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Hellios, consider this for a minute, under normal circumstances Dreadnaughts (and other walkers for that matter) are allowed to pivot in the shooting phase before determining if a unit is in line of sight to it's weapons (Main book page 71 under "Walkers Shooting" third paragraph). Next Fire Frenzy requires you to pivot to face the nearest visible unit before drawing line of sight (Codex Chaos Space Marines page 40 or just look at what both myself and BlkTom have quoted). Now the RAW tells us Pivot first but that trash of an FAQ called INAT tells us we are not allowed to, which do we follow? RAW of course and if that means your Rhino is 3" directly behind the Dread then your Dread will do a 180 about face and fire on the Rhino presenting it's rear armour to the enemy. And for arguments sake we will just say that the Dread pivots on the spot 360 to determine who is the nearest visible then turns to face them as there is no limit to pivoting. Which is a fine RAI house rule, but it's not RAW. Unless you can quote the part where the rule tells you to pivot the model 360' to find the closest model and then align to it - the rule still says pivot towards the closest visible target. If what is visible to the dread is what is in its weapons LoS, then a unit 20" directly ahead of it and currently in its line of sight is still the closest visible unit and therefore becomes the target over a unit 3" directly behind it which requires your RAI 360' pivot to "spot" before following the rules to pivot towards the closest visible target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 You DON'T pivot towards the nearest unit and then fire.:huh: At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice! Lets compare... "You DON'T pivot (it must pivot) towards the nearest unit (towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!)) and then fire (and fire all of its weapons... twice!)" :lol: Its pretty cut and dry. Regardless of INAT FAQ or gentleman's agreements, for the purposes of RAW and the +OR+, the Dread will turn and shoot that Rhino behind him. :) As for myself, a good friend of mine plays Chaos and wouldn't ever take Dreadnoughts if I enforced this. So I don't. His units only take the brunt of a Fire Frenzy if he gets careless with his positioning. I also allow him to have ATSKNF because we think its silly that CSM, who face off regularly against things that would drive loyalists crazy, are more fearful than loyalists. But, again, these are house rules and have no bearing in the +OR+ here. @ the OP: you're right about how the rules are written. :cuss I would suggest, though, that in games with your Chaos friends you allow them to play this one a little more loosely than the RAW requires. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 As LOS has a specific gaming meaning but the term is not used in the text of the rule then surely we have to assume that visbility is not LOS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiisil Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 dswanick, why not just say remove the part about pivoting and change the wording to 'fire at the closest visible unit' because that is the argument I see being presented in your there as well as what INAT says, how is that any more RAW then RAI? BTW I have a small Chaos force and when I run it I almost always run my Dread, and if my units are closest even if they aren't in Weapon LOS they are what get shot at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 @All : The key problem with this rule is the word "visible". If the rule was "At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!" then it would be crystal clear and you guys would be 100% correct. The problem is that niggly little word added in which is never clearly defined. Without a RAW definition of the word "visible" we are asked to pivot towards the closest unit which fills some nebulous criteria which might be "within line of sight" (line of sight being clearly defined for a dreadnought), or it might mean something else (try replacing the word "visible" with the word "green" and see how the rule works), or it might mean nothing ( in which case it could be struck from the rule and give the result describeds above). However, the rule is not clear. The word "visible" is never given an in-game definition. And as such the RAW can be interpreted in either way with equal validity. @ Something Wycked : Unfortunately, you're declaring one interpretation of an unclear rule as correct doesn't make it RAW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 dswanick, why not just say remove the part about pivoting and change the wording to 'fire at the closest visible unit' because that is the argument I see being presented in your there as well as what INAT says, how is that any more RAW then RAI? Well, I'm not going to try an divine the thoughts of the author but If the target unit were in the LoS of the right arm weapon but not the left arm weapon then you wouldn't have the dreadnought unleashing all of its ranged attacks on that unit, would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiisil Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 How about this, if the Dreadnaught can fire it's weapons but there exist no units within visible LOS of it's weapons what do you do? treat it as a result of 'Sane'? I ask because the only criteria that the dreadnaught has to act sane in issue of Fire Frenzy is if the Dreadnaught can not fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 @ Something Wycked : Unfortunately, you're declaring one interpretation of an unclear rule as correct doesn't make it RAW. I'm not sure how "visible" is unclear. It doesn't say "within the weapon mount's line of sight," it says "visible." That "visible" refers to the Dreadnought, which is the "it" in "it must pivot." I'll rewrite it for you: "At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!" "At the beginning of the shooting phase the Dreadnought must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of the Dreadnought's weapons against it - twice!" Makes more sense now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 "At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!""At the beginning of the shooting phase the Dreadnought must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of the Dreadnought's weapons against it - twice!" Makes more sense now? No, because you've avoided the issue. At the beginning of the shooting phase the Dreadnought must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of the Dreadnought's weapons against it - twice! Where in the BRB or Codex: Chaos Space Marines is the word "visible" defined in game terms. Is "visible" equal to "in line of sight"? Is "visible" equal to "on the game table"? The BRB is silent on the definition of "visible", but it sures uses the word as equivalent to "in line of sight" a bunch of times. So try this : "At the beginning of the shooting phase the Dreadnought must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit in line of sight (friend or foe!) and fire all of the Dreadnought's weapons against it - twice!". See how that changes the meaning of the rule. If "visible" equals "in line of sight" then this is the correct way to play the rule. And you can say that "visible" means something other than "in line of sight" but unless you can reference a page number in the BRB or C:CSM then declaring it RAW doesn't make it so. It seems to me that you are equating "closest visible unit" with "closest unit" because you're just assuming that "visible" does not mean "in line of sight", but noone has yet to provide a reference beyond RAI that this is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 :angry: Avoiding the issue indeed. And what if "visibility" does mean "line of sight" as you're claiming? Nothing changes. Walkers have a 360 degree line of sight, just like Infantry. Its only the weapon mounts that do not have a 360 arc of fire. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 :angry: Avoiding the issue indeed. And what if "visibility" does mean "line of sight" as you're claiming? Nothing changes. Walkers have a 360 degree line of sight, just like Infantry. Its only the weapon mounts that do not have a 360 arc of fire. :angry: Once again, prove it. Refer me to the section in the Rulebook where Walkers have a 360' line of sight, because the BRB only states that LoS is determined from the dreadnoughts weapons in a 45' arc from the pivot point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I can't while at work, but neither can you prove the Fire Frenzy rule states LoS must be drawn from a weapon mount. :D Vehicles have a 360 degree LoS; turrets and pintle mounted weapons take advantage of this by having a 360 degree arc of fire to match. I don't remember if Hunter Killer missiles require LoS to/from the vehicle or not, but I do remember they do not require a particular facing- it matters not in which area of the 360 degree circle around the vehicle the target is, the missile can be fired at the target. The rule does not state: "At the beginning of the shooting phase the Dreadnought must pivot on the spot towards the closest unit within line of sight of its weapon mounts (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!" The rule does state "[the Dreadnought] must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!)..." The grammar clearly indicates the visibility is from the Dreadnought itself, not the weapon mounts. The rules clearly indicate that Dreadnoughts may pivot 360 degrees prior to determining line of sight or weapon mounts' arc of fire when shooting even when not in a Fire Frenzy state. Consider the context of the rest of the rules in the BRB. When checking if a target is in LoS, you get a model's eye view to see if the target is "visible" or not. Also consider this rule is supposed to be random and a drawback. Friendly models are supposed to get targeted because of this rule ("friend or foe!"). Chaos Dreadnoughts are insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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