Chaos Dread Fire Frenzy

[Spear of Achilles]

Yep. It's rather simple. THere's nothing that says a dread see's behind itself. Do what you do with your normal space marine model. Get down behind him, see what he sees. If the closest slob can't be targeted by every weapon's 45 degree arc, piviot him to bring all weapons to bear. Stop looking for magic auspex in a dread's description....the thing is Sheeety enough as it is...

 

 

Next thing you know, we'll start debating visibility and who Mad Dok Grotsnik has to run at...the guy he sees 20" away, or a hidden unit that's 15" (or do I get to assault hidden Ygorl Genestealers with him, because, well, they ARE the closest unit the guy wrote down on his paper)

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Yep. It's rather simple. THere's nothing that says a dread see's behind itself. Do what you do with your normal space marine model. Get down behind him, see what he sees. If the closest slob can't be targeted by every weapon's 45 degree arc, piviot him to bring all weapons to bear. Stop looking for magic auspex in a dread's description....the thing is Sheeety enough as it is...

 

 

Next thing you know, we'll start debating visibility and who Mad Dok Grotsnik has to run at...the guy he sees 20" away, or a hidden unit that's 15" (or do I get to assault hidden Ygorl Genestealers with him, because, well, they ARE the closest unit the guy wrote down on his paper)

Ymgarls are not on the table, and thus cannot be targetted. Your equvivalency is false, good sir. Poor show, chap, poor show.

[Hellios]

Yep. It's rather simple. THere's nothing that says a dread see's behind itself. Do what you do with your normal space marine model. Get down behind him, see what he sees. If the closest slob can't be targeted by every weapon's 45 degree arc, piviot him to bring all weapons to bear. Stop looking for magic auspex in a dread's description....the thing is Sheeety enough as it is...

 

 

Next thing you know, we'll start debating visibility and who Mad Dok Grotsnik has to run at...the guy he sees 20" away, or a hidden unit that's 15" (or do I get to assault hidden Ygorl Genestealers with him, because, well, they ARE the closest unit the guy wrote down on his paper)

Ymgarls are not on the table, and thus cannot be targetted. Your equvivalency is false, good sir. Poor show, chap, poor show.

 

Hmmm I think he was exaggerating the absurdity of the argument rather than trying to make a specific point on the rules. Anyway I doff my hat to you good sir.

[Spacefrisian]

I think you all read it wrong.

 

1: you roll for crazed.

2:If its a 1, you get fire frenzy.

3:Finish movement phase.

4:At start of shooting you pivot it so you have the nearest /closest visible unit.

 

40k works with 360 degrees view standing behind him doesnt save you, as that becomes the target, its pretty straight forward all you have to do is use youre head for once.

[Hellios]

I think you all read it wrong.

 

1: you roll for crazed.

2:If its a 1, you get fire frenzy.

3:Finish movement phase.

4:At start of shooting you pivot it so you have the nearest /closest visible unit.

 

40k works with 360 degrees view standing behind him doesnt save you, as that becomes the target, its pretty straight forward all you have to do is use youre head for once.

 

Please provide us with the quote and page number from the rulebook that says a vehicle has 360 degree vision. That kind of thing would be useful.

[Jacinda]

After doing some more reading I came up with this.

BRB pg 16: the last paragraph of "Check Line of Sight & Pick a Target.

"Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body". This we know, but it leads to ....

"Sometimes, all that my be visible of a model is a weapon, ...", here the term visible is directly related to what the player sees when looking with the model's eyes. And finally ...

"In these cases, the model is not visible." This is again the physical line of sight from the model's eyes. So to me now, visibility is physical LoS from the model's eyes to any part of any model in the target unit. You can not have LoS if you do not have visibility. What I really want to stress is that this is a solid working definition of "visibility" as it applies to the game. That being "a line traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of any model in the target unit."

 

On to vehicles ...

pg 58: "When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace line of sight ..." This means visibility is checked after you point the weapon. It goes on to describe different weapon's firing arc for those weapons that can not be turned. Turrets and and pintels get 360 degrees, hull mounted get a 45 degree arc and sponson weapons get either 180 flank or 90 degrees front arc plus what little be they can see over the front of the model. Note that one weapon my have LoS while another weapon does not. Now before you say "well, duh!" I want to say this demonstrates that a weapon's LoS is not the same as the model's LoS. The model may well have LoS to something that a weapon does not. On the other hand, if a weapon has LoS then the vehicle certainly can see the target. I make this point (slim that it is) to say that no where do the vehicle rules say anything about visibility being limited of the model as a whole, only what each weapon can fire at. Unlike infantry, the vehicle model has its visibility and each weapon has to determine LoS independently. The rules neither limit nor grant a specific area of vision for vehicles but only leaves us with pages long arguments over which is the correct way to play. Any way, moving on.

 

Now walkers:

I won't go over the shooting rules since they have been covered well enough already, but the last sentence of Moving Walkers does apply.

pg 72: "Unlike infantry, a walker has a facing, which influences where it can fire ..." This is not as good as saying it can only see in its front facing, but it is close. It does imply limited visibility and that is the main thing. We go on with pivot the walker so the guns are aimed at the target ... blah blah blah ... and we see where the guns have a limited firing arc just like vehicles, however the models range of vision is not the same as the weapon's firing arc because on a vehicle (even a walker) each weapon checks LoS independently and separate from the vehicle as a whole.

 

So here we go .... a walker has a facing. If you check visibility from the models eyes (since walkers use "some of the rules for normal infantry" -pg 72) does that imply a 180 degree front arc of visibility or is it limited to the forward vehicle facing?

 

My conclusion is that visibility is checked first by looking through the models eyes. If you can not trace LoS from the walkers eyes to the target, you do not have visibility. This means anything behind the walker is not visible. The things to the sides of the model are questionable and need to be checked but going be the "head" of the dreadnought which is where the eyes of the walker are mounted (which are then wired into the pilot's brain) this would be a 180 degree front arc field of vision more or less. In any case, if you can not draw a line from eyes to target, you do not have visibility and this is checked BEFORE any pivoting. This is actually different from how I assumed it worked and how I have been playing it.

 

Just to finish off the whole scenario, once you have determined the closest visible unit, you pivot to face the unit and fire all weapons twice. Vehicle facing is determined drawing lines through the opposite corners and all you really have to do is pivot enough to get the target unit within that facing. However, if you care to go back to the rules for firing walkers, you have to again pivot the model so that its guns are aimed at the target so you may as well make the whole pivot at the start.

[Something Wycked]

Spacefrisian: if we're all not using our heads here, then what exactly is all the discussion about? If nothing else, this is a fantastic mental exercise and I wish you'd stay more cordial to your B&C brothers and sisters :o GW all too often writes unclear rules, and this is strangely one of them- it seems to be written exceptionally clearly, but that is deceptive.

 

Jacinda: Well-researched and posted, but a couple of points:

 

Your conclusion contradicts the ambiguous findings in the vehicle section:

...no where do the vehicle rules say anything about visibility being limited of the model as a whole, only what each weapon can fire at. Unlike infantry, the vehicle model has its visibility and each weapon has to determine LoS independently. The rules neither limit nor grant a specific area of vision for vehicles...

Versus:

My conclusion is that visibility is checked first by looking through the models eyes. If you can not trace LoS from the walkers eyes to the target, you do not have visibility. This means anything behind the walker is not visible.

 

And a question of my own: I was under the impression that the rules state Infantry do not have a "facing" and have a 360 degree arc of fire and vision. If this is the case (and not a holdover from 4th...) how does that mesh with this idea of yours:

 

.... a walker has a facing. If you check visibility from the models eyes (since walkers use "some of the rules for normal infantry" -pg 72) does that imply a 180 degree front arc of visibility or is it limited to the forward vehicle facing?

 

In any case, I'm still with dswanick that it is far, far too ambiguous.

 

Hey purposefully misquoting me isn't cool! It either makes you look dishonest (as you are trying to mislead people) or stupid because you don't understand the argument The line you quoted was used to clarify the previous line and not meant to stand on it's own.

First up, how did I "misquote" you? I quoted your exact words. Accusing me of dishonesty or stupidity is out of line, thanks. :)

 

So yeah... find the nearest visible unit (If someone can define this within the game... that would help... as I say I go along what was given for LOS...), THEN you pivot... and THEN you fire.

Interestingly, we're suggesting the same order of operations- since you obviously can't pivot towards the nearest visible unit until after you determine what is the nearest visible unit. ;)

 

Was that so hard?

It is made hard when you omit the necessary verbage from your statement on what needs to be done :P

 

You say: "you don't pivot towards the nearest unit and fire" which appears to be incorrect, unless you directly compare it with the following: "you pivot towards the nearest visible unit and fire." That distinction is important, especially in the +OR+ :o

[Hellios]

Hey purposefully misquoting me isn't cool! It either makes you look dishonest (as you are trying to mislead people) or stupid because you don't understand the argument The line you quoted was used to clarify the previous line and not meant to stand on it's own.

First up, how did I "misquote" you? I quoted your exact words. Accusing me of dishonesty or stupidity is out of line, thanks. :lol:

 

 

You say: "you don't pivot towards the nearest unit and fire" which appears to be incorrect, unless you directly compare it with the following: "you pivot towards the nearest visible unit and fire." That distinction is important, especially in the +OR+ :lol:

 

Errrm because I said that in my first post but you didn't quote that... you quoted only the incorrect bit... Taking what I said out of context... So I have to assume you purposefully tried to mislead people or you have failed to understand the context. So out of line... Nah not really.

[Isiah]

Umm.... let's keep this on track please gents eh :) ?

[Spear of Achilles]

Yep. It's rather simple. THere's nothing that says a dread see's behind itself. Do what you do with your normal space marine model. Get down behind him, see what he sees. If the closest slob can't be targeted by every weapon's 45 degree arc, piviot him to bring all weapons to bear. Stop looking for magic auspex in a dread's description....the thing is Sheeety enough as it is...

 

 

Next thing you know, we'll start debating visibility and who Mad Dok Grotsnik has to run at...the guy he sees 20" away, or a hidden unit that's 15" (or do I get to assault hidden Ygorl Genestealers with him, because, well, they ARE the closest unit the guy wrote down on his paper)

Ymgarls are not on the table, and thus cannot be targetted. Your equvivalency is false, good sir. Poor show, chap, poor show.

 

Technically...they are hidden on the table...you just can't see them. heh heh.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Yep. It's rather simple. THere's nothing that says a dread see's behind itself. Do what you do with your normal space marine model. Get down behind him, see what he sees. If the closest slob can't be targeted by every weapon's 45 degree arc, piviot him to bring all weapons to bear. Stop looking for magic auspex in a dread's description....the thing is Sheeety enough as it is...

 

 

Next thing you know, we'll start debating visibility and who Mad Dok Grotsnik has to run at...the guy he sees 20" away, or a hidden unit that's 15" (or do I get to assault hidden Ygorl Genestealers with him, because, well, they ARE the closest unit the guy wrote down on his paper)

Ymgarls are not on the table, and thus cannot be targetted. Your equvivalency is false, good sir. Poor show, chap, poor show.

 

Technically...they are hidden on the table...you just can't see them. heh heh.

[Morbo]The rules do not work that way![/Morbo]

 

Really, they don't. And if you're trying to be funny, you're failing.

[Spear of Achilles]

Really, they don't. And if you're trying to be funny, you're failing.

 

 

Cry me a river. If you read the description, it clearly says they are lying dormant in the terrain you choose. So they really ARE there. Yeah, we know they are not visible and normally can't be attacked, i was pointing out using common sense in rules interp, giving an example of how some folks don't use common sense. If you want to be a rules jocky, I'm fine with saying Mad Dok can see them fine...he moves toward the closest unit (even if he can't see 'em), and the wording in 'Dormant' says they ARE lying in the terrain. I always play he moves toward the closest unit HE KNOWS ABOUT. If some guy has a landraider in the open but its farther beyond a unit the Dok has not yet laid eyes on and has no way of knowing its near but out of site...guess what...he goes for the land raider. The same with a Chaos Dread. If he suddenly gets all pissed off crazy...he shoots whats the closest visible from his eye slits, friend or foe.

[Venemox]

So, I see the main issue is interpreting what the Dreadnought can see. Let's apply this problem to a different, but related scenario: In the Movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy. (pg. 76, BBB, there's more to it, but that illuminates my example).

 

Let's see...the section titled Turning and Facing on pg. 11 says As you move the models in a unit, they can turn to face in any direction, without affecting the distance they are able to cover. Skip forward to pg. 57, under Vehicles and Movement, and we find Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point...

 

I'm all for playing Dreadnought shuffle with my DC dreads to avoid looking at certain units. I only have to Rage in my 45 degree LoS arc? I can pivot my DC dread in both the Movement (as many times as I like) and Shooting (before checking distance to a target) phases to select my required movement direction? Yes, please!

 

Example: Pivot DC dread 180 degrees away from enemies, avoiding all enemy models in my 45 degree LoS arc. Move any way I feel like it, since my DC dread can no longer 'see' any 'visible' enemies. Pivot as necessry to expose high front and side armor and protect weaker aft armor (either during Movement or Shooting phase).

 

Somehow, I think this might get frowned upon.

[Jacinda]

Yes, that is the next step commonly taken with a FF result for chaos dreads. It can not move, but pivoting is not moving so the worst case is you just point it at nothing and miss a turn. I still go with the old tactic of arming it with a flamer and missle launcher and keep everything 12" away. The nearest unit will always be my terminator squad. If I have to fire on my troops, I use frag missles and lay the flamer template over bare ground. I do this and play the full view rules or at least I used to; I think I have convienced myself otherwise. Still, it is really not all that hard to manage your insane dreadnoughts even with 360 degree vision.

[Something Wycked]

Somehow, I think this might get frowned upon.

Classic, Venemox. If Dreads can only "see" what their weapon mounts have LoS to, then through the same clever shenanigans DC Dreads can escape the Rage rule entirely and you can move them anywhere you like. ^_^

[Spear of Achilles]

I don't see why you have a problem assuming the dreads see through heir visor/face plate. If they see somebody, in their sight, they shoot them. For some reason you think they have eyes in the back of their head. They don't. You're acting like they can plan when they rage with all the rotating. They just get pissed and fire their weapons.

[Spear of Achilles]

Actually you probably can't pivot as often as you want, at least that will affect who you move towards.. Nowhere does it say 'rage takes affect after you move or pivot'. The Rage , unlike fire frenzy or blood rage for a chaos dread (which is dependent on a dice roll to see when it happens) is always in affect, which means it takes place before pivoting or anything else the dread does. By all means, if you are not facing your view port toward an enemy when it's now your turn to go (say for instance your dread killed someone in cc), you HAVE to move toward the closest visible foe the dread can SEE (by looking over his shoulder as you would any other model)...if someone is behind you that you are unable to see, so be it.

[Saiisil]

Can you show me somewhere in the rules that is rules and not fluff that says that is the only form of vision that a dreadnaught has?

[Something Wycked]

I don't see why you have a problem assuming the dreads see through heir visor/face plate.

Right back at you- I don't see why you have a problem assuming that dreads have means of vision other than their visor/face plate. :)

 

The issue is that this is the +OR+ and assumptions do not fly here; your fluff reason for Dreadnought vision is just as valid as mine- which is to say, here in the +OR+, not at all. :D

 

This whole debate is an issue because the BRB does not clearly define what a Vehicle/Dreadnought can and cannot see. Some of us feel, since this is undefined, that Dreadnoughts can see in all directions; others feel that Dreadnoughts can only see what their weapon mounts have LoS to, since that is the closest thing we have to a definition of what a Dreadnought can see.

 

The truth is, all credit to dswanick for saying it, that neither side can prove their case. I think this is a Grey Area candidate. :lol:

[Hellios]

By the way... you have to prove they have got 360 vision... I can't prove a negative... except as I have by stating as far as I'm aware nowhere says they have 360 vision... If you can't provide the quote then... RAW I'm right.

[nurglez]

But nowhere says they only have los through their weapons, it only discusses los from the guns in regards to shooting, not to general sight.

 

From the same factor, are we assuming that rhinos only have los from their storm bolter? What happens if a dread loses all its ranged weapons? Is he blind?

I prefer to treat dreads like infantry, 360 degrees, makes life simpler. I'd played chaos for quite awhile, but this is how I assume the rule to work.

[Isiah]

By the way... you have to prove they have got 360 vision... I can't prove a negative... except as I have by stating as far as I'm aware nowhere says they have 360 vision... If you can't provide the quote then... RAW I'm right.

 

Well actually dreads use many rules for infantry so thus like infantry they can 'see' in any direction - but unlike infantry they must physically pivot to be able to fire upon their intended target using TLOS from their weapon(s) - unlike normal infantry who can point in any direction.

 

In the case of Frenzy, I think the words 'visible unit' are merely referring to the closest units not entirely hidden or obscured from the dread no matter which way it is facing on the table. It is not a reference (I don't think) to what the Dread might physically 'see' by looking through it's sarcophagus slit. The TLOS element only comes into play once he's been pivoted to fire his weapons.

 

Thus the scenario is:

 

• D6 - Arrrggghh

• Which unit is closest and isn't totally obscured/hidden from the Dread?

• Then pivot the dread to that unit, use TLOS from its weapons, and blast away.

[Saiisil]

By the way... you have to prove they have got 360 vision... I can't prove a negative... except as I have by stating as far as I'm aware nowhere says they have 360 vision... If you can't provide the quote then... RAW I'm right.

 

Just as you have to prove they don't, I for the life of me can not find in the BRB or any Codex that states that Dreadnaughts or any other walker that I have access to the codex for has only a 45 degree forward vision or any vehicle for that matter, I also can not find where it says that a vehicle models LoS is limited to its weapons Fire Arcs. Porvide the quote or RAW your wrong.

[Hellios]

By the way... you have to prove they have got 360 vision... I can't prove a negative... except as I have by stating as far as I'm aware nowhere says they have 360 vision... If you can't provide the quote then... RAW I'm right.

 

Just as you have to prove they don't, I for the life of me can not find in the BRB or any Codex that states that Dreadnaughts or any other walker that I have access to the codex for has only a 45 degree forward vision or any vehicle for that matter, I also can not find where it says that a vehicle models LoS is limited to its weapons Fire Arcs. Porvide the quote or RAW your wrong.

 

I can't find the rule that says I can't just say pew pew and then you have to remove all your models... Eh I guess I can do that then... Ah the wonders of a permissive rule set where you have to be given permission to do something. So I state once more... WHERE are you given permission to use a 360 degree field of vision. I'm happy to admit I'm wrong if someone can show me the quote with a page number... It would end a debate that has raged on since the heresy... or so it seems.

 

At Isiah, I think your argument has many valid points and if walkers do have 360 degree vision then yes I agree that visible is meant for intervening terrain and so on... However I'm not convinced of the 360 LOS... My understanding was that infantry draw LOS from their eyes but are free to pivot in their shooting phase... so for the purposes of shooting there are very few cases where your facing would matter... I'm not sure visible has been properly defined... Hence why I use LOS a lot. You may have also heard of the argument about rage and LOS (I'm not familiar with the argument myself, so I don't know if it holds water, although I would say it sounds like abusing a loop hole.)

 

I also think that my understanding of the rule makes perfect sense from a fluff perspective... I don't think Chaos dreads are so mad they suddenly turn around (when facing an enemy) and decide to toast the chaos lord for no reason... No I think fire frenzy represents tunnel vision (as a psychological state, rather than a physical ailment.) and paranoia. Chaos dread starts blasting off at the enemy and due to getting tunnel vision he doesn't even realize his friends are in the way and so BLATS them or he just gets carried away in the killing. Then the Paranoia... if someone gets too close and takes him by the surprise he BLATS before he realizes who they are... because everyone is out to get him... That is how mad chaos dreads are... Mad enough to not realize they are killing friends, mad enough to not care that they are killing friends when BLATING the enemy... paranoid enough to kill those who get close before they know who they are... but not mad enough to go hunting their own guys for giggles when they can see perfectly good enemy targets.

[Spear of Achilles]

Permissive is the word. LOS tells you what they can target. The rules for LOS say get down behind the model and LOOK. There is no rule for a dread seeing behind it. It evens ays a dred has a facing, which is important when firing weapons. Most of the info favors him shooing whats right in front of him.