knife&fork Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 With the way the meta has turned out it seems that people are getting really good at popping transports. Rhinos and razorbacks suffer particularly being only AV11 while chimeras ( :) ) are slightly better off with their front AV12. When you take this into consideration a razorback squad is fairly expensive even with the discount. What most people consider to be the minimum (upgraded RB, melta gun) is still 165 points. There's no denying that the meta is melta heavy as well, which means that any AV or point heavy model has a disadvantage at close range. Right now I think it's safe to say that most common threat you'll be facing is auto cannons at range and meltas up close. Autocannons will struggle vs higher AV and meltas, as powerful as they are, can't kill more than one marine per shooting phase. If you think about these points it would seem that long range, high AV out back and lots of bodies up front would put you one step ahead of the meta. So how can we accomplish this with the BA dex? For the rear guard I suppose it's difficult to beat the AC-LAS predator for value. Up front however there are many different options. I don't think scouts are any good for this, they simply don't have the durability or damage output to be a front line unit. If we can't rely on infiltrate, rhinos or razorbacks for mobility, and land raiders are costly and vulnerable, we still have many options left. Drop pods, teleportation and jump packs. (pretty much the rest of the codex) What do you all think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I tend to play mainly against MEQ so I personally don't find too much use for AC's. Backfield I therefore tend to run a couple of Devastator Squads. The list I'm using at the moment has 2 ML's and 2 PC's in one squad and 2 ML's and 2 LC's in the other. 300 points for 8 heavy weapons that are capable of dealing with almost any threat is pretty good IMO. Shove a priest with them and if possible deploy in cover and they become very hard to shift too. Up front I'm still quite fond of Razors full of assault marines but I also like hordes of JP assault marines descending on the enemy so I am considering getting a few more assault squads to make up the required numbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2908528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 I tend to play mainly against MEQ so I personally don't find too much use for AC's. Backfield I therefore tend to run a couple of Devastator Squads. The list I'm using at the moment has 2 ML's and 2 PC's in one squad and 2 ML's and 2 LC's in the other. 300 points for 8 heavy weapons that are capable of dealing with almost any threat is pretty good IMO. Shove a priest with them and if possible deploy in cover and they become very hard to shift too. Up front I'm still quite fond of Razors full of assault marines but I also like hordes of JP assault marines descending on the enemy so I am considering getting a few more assault squads to make up the required numbers. What kind of MEQ are we talking about? The problem as I see it is that it's really difficult to build a list that can handle both Grey knights (will eat you up close, very good medium range shooting) and IG (blow you to bits at range). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2908540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 It's Grey Knights, Black Templars, Ultramarines and Chaos Space Marines. I have yet to play against any IG army as sadly none of the local players has one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2908544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 AV13 Predator hulls help. And I've been working more and more Lascannons into my list to try and counter Psyfleman Dreadnoughts. And my Drop Podding Furioso with Frag Cannon, Meltagun and Magna Grapple is nearly always good for ensuring one of those Psyflemen isn't there in turn 2. I can see how massed Predators/Devs in the backfield and waves of Assault Marines with FnP bubbles could feasibly work.... But how would you deal with Grey Knights in combat? They aren't the best codex due to their shooting, they are the best codex because they excel in EVERY phase of the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2908555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I can see how massed Predators/Devs in the backfield and waves of Assault Marines with FnP bubbles could feasibly work.... But how would you deal with Grey Knights in combat? They aren't the best codex due to their shooting, they are the best codex because they excel in EVERY phase of the game. I always run librarians to disrupt GK psychic powers. I'm not that fussed by their shooting as only the rending shots from psycannons usually cause any casualties due to 3+/FNP. In melee, the halberds inevitably cause some casualties but I still usually have more than enough left to wipe out the GK's with my return attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2908576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 I can see how massed Predators/Devs in the backfield and waves of Assault Marines with FnP bubbles could feasibly work.... But how would you deal with Grey Knights in combat? They aren't the best codex due to their shooting, they are the best codex because they excel in EVERY phase of the game. I don't have a good answer to that since any hard counter to one grey knight list can be useless against another, or more likely not very good as an all comers list. I'm not saying assault marines are the answer though, they tend to end up very expensive while not packing much of a punch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2908595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 they dont excel in movement, which means you should be able to outmanouvre them. If you can outmanouvre them you have to try and outnumber them at critical points, which is helped by application of firepower to break their units up and separate them from support, allowing you to outnumber in assault and short-ranged firepower, allowing you to seriously prod buttock. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2908623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 They are a very mobile army. MSU of Purifiers and Strike Squads in Razorbacks with Psycannons, with Death Cult Assassins is very manoeuvrable. Just because they aren't as good as us or Eldar in the movement phase doesn't mean they aren't good at it. GK shooting versus FnP Power Armour isnt too great, but that isnt the topic. It is their powerful shooting versus Razorbacks that the OP brought up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2910074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 GK shooting versus FnP Power Armour isnt too great, but that isnt the topic. It is their powerful shooting versus Razorbacks that the OP brought up. Exactly. They are great at popping transport, and so is every other competitive list. My question is: How can we take advantage of this by going infantry heavy and minimizing the targets vulnerable to that type of shooting? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2910086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Thing is, Daemons and Nids eat infantry armies. And so do Orks. Dark Eldar can put out enough shots to hinder Infantry heavy as well. So you might counter PsySpam Grey Knights but you'd be shifting the meta backwards against other lists, which is why I don't think it's the way if you want to be 'competitive'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2910131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Machiavi Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I choose to run a DoA army almost all of the time at the places I play. This is due to the amount of armies that are vehicle heavy and soldier light. People get so caught up in trying to bring the biggest weapons to get rid of other vehicles or the most weapons to put out the most shots. And they forget about tactics and precision. They leave themselves open and rely dice to win the game for them. People are surprised how much ground Jump Pack Squads can cover and how much damage they can do with the right tools. For 5pts each Melta-Bombs are a steal for the damage they can cause. All your Jump pack squads come with Krak Grenades (Str 6+D6) and against most rear Arm10 will get you a few Pens. The squad will have the Melta in it as well. I could go on and on, but you should get the point. As far as each army I think Grey Knights are giving alot of people a hard time. I just try to look at the army, see how they deploy, and usually I still out number them. I try to focus on the "Non Grey Knight Units" the ones that are the Psykers especially and the units that I will not have a problem with in hand to hand. Then depending on mission objectives I try to crack the Grey Knights out of the Rhinos/Chimeras and make them walk. Its not always easy, does not always work, but I always have a good time doing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2910240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 I choose to run a DoA army almost all of the time at the places I play. This is due to the amount of armies that are vehicle heavy and soldier light. People get so caught up in trying to bring the biggest weapons to get rid of other vehicles or the most weapons to put out the most shots. And they forget about tactics and precision. They leave themselves open and rely dice to win the game for them. People are surprised how much ground Jump Pack Squads can cover and how much damage they can do with the right tools. For 5pts each Melta-Bombs are a steal for the damage they can cause. All your Jump pack squads come with Krak Grenades (Str 6+D6) and against most rear Arm10 will get you a few Pens. The squad will have the Melta in it as well. I could go on and on, but you should get the point. As far as each army I think Grey Knights are giving alot of people a hard time. I just try to look at the army, see how they deploy, and usually I still out number them. I try to focus on the "Non Grey Knight Units" the ones that are the Psykers especially and the units that I will not have a problem with in hand to hand. Then depending on mission objectives I try to crack the Grey Knights out of the Rhinos/Chimeras and make them walk. Its not always easy, does not always work, but I always have a good time doing it. Any experience you'd like to share against the above mentioned DE, tyranids, daemons and Orks? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2910266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I'd say drop pod melta squads are the way to go. Dual meltagun and power fist assault squad fist turn drop pod on psyflemans and gimp them, possibly even hold the objectives depending on how fast and what you get in there to support them. The drop pod is free too. If that's too costy you can always drop the minimum five with a meltagun and inferno pistol. They won't cost much more than what they kill, and probably save you more in the long run by shutting sown enemy's range support even if they all die right after. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2910283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Machiavi Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I choose to run a DoA army almost all of the time at the places I play. This is due to the amount of armies that are vehicle heavy and soldier light. People get so caught up in trying to bring the biggest weapons to get rid of other vehicles or the most weapons to put out the most shots. And they forget about tactics and precision. They leave themselves open and rely dice to win the game for them. People are surprised how much ground Jump Pack Squads can cover and how much damage they can do with the right tools. For 5pts each Melta-Bombs are a steal for the damage they can cause. All your Jump pack squads come with Krak Grenades (Str 6+D6) and against most rear Arm10 will get you a few Pens. The squad will have the Melta in it as well. I could go on and on, but you should get the point. As far as each army I think Grey Knights are giving alot of people a hard time. I just try to look at the army, see how they deploy, and usually I still out number them. I try to focus on the "Non Grey Knight Units" the ones that are the Psykers especially and the units that I will not have a problem with in hand to hand. Then depending on mission objectives I try to crack the Grey Knights out of the Rhinos/Chimeras and make them walk. Its not always easy, does not always work, but I always have a good time doing it. Any experience you'd like to share against the above mentioned DE, tyranids, daemons and Orks? As far as DE, I like to give them minimal targets and even letting them go first. They put out so many poison shots and bring alot of unexpected things to the table. If a person does not own a DE codex they are wrong, you should be reading up on and knowing what this army can do. Getting into hand to hand to avoid getting shot at is always good with a DE army. Most DE players do not take a full compliment of the DEs best close combat troops and try to Venom spam you instead. And DE give up Sooo many kill points as well, most armies I see can give up 20+ kill points a game so as long as you dont get wiped off the board you can win. Orks are your mass vs thier bigger mass. Most of them are only Str3 so the key to them I think is not to let them get the charge and gain Furious Charge. Get in there and chop them up. Use 2 squads on large mobz, get that power weapon on the Nobz and Boss. Start on one flank and work your way thru them by keeping your Blood Angels close together. This is a case where they most likely out number you but because of this the Ork army will be more spread out, use it to your advantage and take on one piece of it at a time. Nothing to fear in an Ork army, just do not try to get in the middle of the board with them and play King of the Hill and expect to win. With Nids all I have really seen have been the army lists with mostly the bigs bugs. They are tough to kill and your just going to loose alot of good marines in the process. The meltas, plasma, power weapons, fists, etc...etc.... that you have in the army will have to be used together to take down each big bug one at a time. We may have the numbers in this one, but it seems like the wounds are on the Nids sides. I like playing and beating Blood Angels armies who play the Razor spam most of all. I think it is such a waste that here you are playing one of the greatest assault codex armies there is and people choose to field a full vehicle army instead. Not saying that a decent mix of support vehicles in a BA army isnt good, but the whole point behind Blood Angels is getting into close combat and they do it so well. Well I feel like I have rambled on and on. I love playing Blood Angels and have so much fun win or loose. DoA is great cause it is always one speed and one direction, fast and forward. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2910692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I'm not seeing a problem personnaly. Other armies are good at popping transports, but so is mine, so they cancel each other out mostly. And even once dismounted, my squads are still something to fear thanks to FnP, meltas, FC and fists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2910843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I'm not seeing a problem personnaly. Other armies are good at popping transports, but so is mine, so they cancel each other out mostly. And even once dismounted, my squads are still something to fear thanks to FnP, meltas, FC and fists. This. I'm not having any problem with it either, the damage chart for vehicles makes that even Av11 is simply strong enough. If somebody fields a lot of S7/S8, then he often can't handle 25 FnP Marines well. So basicly, overall it balances itself out. I don't upgrade my Razorbacks though, I field them with Heavy Bolters (yes really, it's brilliant in the right lists ^^) so they're only 5 points more than a rhino in that case. The trick is also to provide more 'tough' targets of course, I do it with Preds, Attack Bikes and Mephy personally. So no, I see no reason to change anything ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2911152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 If you run a list like my friends you don't really have any problems, it's a do anything, go anywhere list: Libby w/ Shield, Fear Assault Squad w/ Lazback, Dozer Assault Squad w/ Lazback, Dozer Assault Squad w/ Lazback, Dozer Assault Squad w/ Lazback, Dozer Assault Squad w/ Razorback w/ Heavy Flamer, Dozer Baal w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Dozer Baal w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Dozer Baal w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Dozer Predator w/ Lascannnon Sponsons, Dozer Predator w/ Lascannnon Sponsons, Dozer Predator w/ Lascannnon Sponsons, Dozer Ruins most armies. Can also out shoot most armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2911202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted October 28, 2011 Author Share Posted October 28, 2011 I don't upgrade my Razorbacks though, I field them with Heavy Bolters (yes really, it's brilliant in the right lists ^^) Mind posting (or link) an example list? HB razorbacks are not exactly the most common choice. I've been thinking about some lists not taking the usual AV spam approach, the problem I constantly face is that the key units you need to make it work are all in the Elites section. And those 3 slots fill up quickly. Try to work around it and you end up with DC or sang guard lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2911432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 HB razorbacks are the cheapest (obviously) and add some anti infantry firepower lacking in the army. They don't seem common for BA razorspam but I can definitely see why they could be useful. G <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2911555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 I don't upgrade my Razorbacks though, I field them with Heavy Bolters (yes really, it's brilliant in the right lists ^^) Mind posting (or link) an example list? HB razorbacks are not exactly the most common choice. Sure, this is my standard list: Mephy 250 Corbulo 105 2 MM Attack Bikes 100 2 MM Attack Bikes 100 2 MM Attack Bikes 100 5 ASM; melta, HB-Razor + dozer 135 5 ASM; melta, HB-Razor + dozer 135 5 ASM; melta, HB-Razor + dozer 135 5 ASM; melta, HB-Razor + dozer 135 5 ASM; melta, HB-Razor + dozer 135 Las/AC Pred + dozer 140 Las/AC Pred + dozer 140 Las/AC Pred + dozer 140 Total: 1750 Mephy can be exchanged for a Libby + Inferus & Powersword on all Sergeants, Corbulo should/can be traded for 2 regular priests in this case to ensure greater Fnp/FC coverage. I just don't like lists without any form of long range 'dakka', it's just really usefull/necessary to have for a balanced list imo :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2911806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokhar Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 That's an interesting thought. Its not quite as light on anti-tank as I was expecting. I do think that Corbulo/Sanguinary Priests/Power Swords in a list like this are just wasted points (aside from Corbulo's re-roll). So while the HB Razors are sorta viable in this arrangement, I can't help thinking that I'd much rather have 4 twin-linked Assault Cannons than Corbulo and a couple of dozer blades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2911892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 That's alright, opinions differ sometimes. (my god that sounds hypocrite out of my mouth :lol: ) I find Corbulo really good in combination with Mephy because of FnP and that single re-roll, re-rolling that failed psychic test for wings on a crucial moment can be game winning. The whole army also doesn't need FnP, realisticly 2 out of 5 razors wont get to move forwards and having a single FnP bubble makes those 15 ASM moving towards midfield/your oppenent soooo much more survivable.... On top of that he's decent himself too in combat and can't be torrented out of a squad like normal 1 wound priests. Attack Bikes also benefit from FnP, although this only matters against armies like DE (splinter cannonssss) as normally they simply get killed by S8+ weaponry. I love dozers, makes it so much easier to get cover as you can go into terrain whenever you want without high odds of immobilizing yourself. Fast vehicles are also pretty much made for tankshocks, which is great late game in combination with objectives you know. (which are often placed in terrain, immobilizing yourself while trying to contest an objective can lose one games... I had this problem with Eldar for example, who are great at tankshocking but not so much when you roll 1's heh) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2911918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dastrike Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 In my local area there is a lot of the Heavy Mech armies for all the different codexs that hit the shelves. Playing from the wide array of armies, even the dreaded Imperial Guard armies who are packing a lot of fire power still have a hard time punching through a lot of the armour. Yes one person can score a great deal of hits but when it comes down to getting the pen or the glance it has a tendency to fall short on more then half the occasions. For Blood Angels you should be seeing these vehicles as a way to get your troops into combat faster and more into one piece and not so broken up from trying to either walk or fly across the field. Everyone has their own play style, I prefer the heavy mech rhino chassis of the Blood Angels and one of the reasons I have been drawn to them because of their speed capabilities, because nothing says fun like flying into your opponents line and causing all kinds of mayhem, even if it is Mephiston paying everyone a visit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2912107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 Ran an all infantry list today vs mechanized IG and he was one coversave from being completely wiped off the table at turn 6. :D In the other game I ran a pretty standard razor spam vs the same list and barely tied with very little left on the table. Sometimes being different pays off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240871-rb-spam-on-the-way-out/#findComment-2912376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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