Tactical Curiousity.

[Inquisitor =D=]

I was pondering over army ideas and wanted to get some opinions and thoughts on it.

 

The list would be something like thus;

Crowe { :blink: }

Brotherhood Champion (acts like chaplain)

 

Multiple Purifier units with Rhino transport.

 

2+ Dreadknight with teleporters.

 

The idea would obviously be "I'm in your face!" I'm hopeful that people would be forced to deal with the NDK's early on, allowing the purifiers to ride up and do what they do best. (step, step, Dakka dakka dakka, step, dakka, assault) I'd be looking at 1500- 1850pts as that's the "norm" here in Fairbanks

 

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

=]D[=

[thade]

I see this list all the the time, or some variations.

 

My honest advice for you is that a list will neither win or lose a game for you; only you can do that. Pick something because you think it looks fun and/or the models will be fun to paint and show off, with models you think you'll like. The more attached you get to an army or even a list, the better you will do with it. It just takes time, patience, careful thinking, and practice.

 

That said, this list is fine for a beginner GK player. Just don't expect it to /faceroll for you in all cases. <3

[Something Wycked]

You could also skip Crowe and the Purifiers and instead go with Strikes and Interceptors. Strikes can Deep Strike (you can hold them in reserve to protect them until they come in to take objectives) and Interceptors go hand in hand with PTDK's.

 

Its an expensive force in terms of points per model, but you can outmaneuver anything but a bike/skimmer heavy army and, if its tactically advantageous, you can be in your opponent's face on turn 1 with 50-90% of your army, depending on how much you spend on HQ and Troops.

[Inquisitor =D=]

Thanks for the thoughts fellas. I know I don't post much anymore but I'm actually a GK veteran so to speak, been playing them since the original Daemonhunters release. :D I've just been trying to branch out recently as it came to the point where I would show up with my army case and people would KNOW exactly what was coming. And Yes this is my version of branching out as my gal will only allow 1 mass of painted pewter things and I could never part with this army (too personal).

My staple force will always be the tri-raider but I'd like to experiment a little. (Yeah, hate to brag but when you rock the firelanes so hard that at least two raiders survive every game in a tourney, its time to think different.)

 

So... since this idea seems to be common elsewhere, throw me a screwball! What nutty idea could I test?

 

=]D[=

[Murcielago]

Draigowing with this list...take THAT for nutty

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Crowe

 

No, Grandmaster is better in every conceivable way

 

Brotherhood Champion (acts like chaplain)

 

No, Librarian is better in every conceivable way. Hell, if you're not too fussed about your secondary HQ (Librarian is a solid choice but by no means auto-include), take Coteaz for cheap melta+Razorspam

 

Multiple Purifier units with Rhino transport.

 

Yay! Take 2-3 in Elite, you have a very solid core of infantry. I like the quad psycannon, 5 halberd and hammer build. You can fire two from the top hatch on the way in, and when you disembark, fun times for all.

 

2+ Dreadknight with teleporters.

 

Yay, another guy who actually takes Dreadknights :P . PsyDreads get boring after a while.

 

 

Because you seem keen on Purifiers, I'd recommend something like this (just fiddle to put it back down to 1,500)

 

HQ:

 

Grandmaster w/sword, psychostroke grenades

(190 points)

 

Coteaz

(100 points)

 

Elites:

 

(2) Flame Knight w/halberd, Purifier w/hammer, 4 x Purifiers w/halberds, 4 x Purifiers w/psycannons, Rhino

(335 points each)

 

Troops:

 

3 x plasma cannon servitors, 2 x Jokaero, Chimera w/multi-laser+heavy flamer

(185 points

 

(2) 3 x Warriors w/meltaguns, Razorback w/lascannon+twin plasma gun

(122 points each)

 

Heavy Support:

 

(2) Dreadknight w/greatsword, teleporter

(230 points each)

 

Total: 1,850 points

 

Get aggressive with the Purifiers and Dreadknights, while the Grandmaster sits comfortably with Coteaz inside a Chimera, using 'Communion' to get them Outflanking where they need to be. You have three cheap mechanised scoring units for capturing objectives, which matches up nicely with most other armies at 1,850 (only Guard and possibly Blood Angels will out-mech you at that level). Lascannon and plasma cannon harasses from long-range, while you can always close to melta+plasma gun aggressive targets trying to smash your gunline.

[thade]

Crowe has his uses, even beyond the simple fact that he unlocks Purifiers as Troops (and Purifiers are as close to the old-school GK you're gonna get these days, with halberds and Fearless); he's a nice objective defender as he can engage infantry units on his own. (I've seen him paired with a Vindicare for some solid effect: Vindicare picks off the Power Fist and in goes Crowe.)

 

The Brotherhood Champion is the only non-special character HQ unit that can embark in a Rhino; he doesn't wear Terminator armor. If you are looking for a budget HQ so you can mass spam Strikes (much like you may have once taken a budget Librarian in the vanilla dex to max spam tacticals) in Rhinos, he's your man. He's cheap, so you risk little when he charges in...and his charge can be pretty spectacular as any GK unit is far from helpless in an assault.

 

Not to discount Grand Masters or Librarians: their uses are well cataloged at this point. However, unless you bring Storm Ravens or Land Raiders, they're foot-slogging. That is their only real detriment.

 

As for Dreadknights, I think they're hip. Spam em. <3 Heavy Incinerators are the cat's pajay-jays.

[Something Wycked]

Crowe

 

No, Grandmaster is better in every conceivable way

Unless you need someone to fit inside a non-LR/SR transport, or to be near-unkillable in CC or to assassinate an opposing IC in CC, or to kill off hordes without even trying, or you need Troops that are more "Elite" than Henchmen or Termies or Strikes... No, they each have their uses.

 

Brotherhood Champion (acts like chaplain)

 

No, Librarian is better in every conceivable way. Hell, if you're not too fussed about your secondary HQ (Librarian is a solid choice but by no means auto-include), take Coteaz for cheap melta+Razorspam

Unless you regularly face opponents who bring psychic defense and the Libby would be near useless, or an IC who can ride in a Rhino/Razorback with your PA squads, or to be near-unkillable in CC, or who can almost assassinate an opposing IC in CC... No, they each have their uses.

 

While cheap melta+Razorspam has certainly been shown to be effective, its not everyone's cup of tea. An old school GK player may not be particularly interested in the "latest and greatest" metagame units since they've used the oldies for so long.

 

Not trying to pick on you personally, Darius, just statements like "every conceivable way" are rarely accurate, and I like encouraging diversity instead of cookie cutters :blush:

[ASE.Rags]

I've seen a guy playing a list like this (don't know how he filled op the last points till 1850) pretty successful. Sure it's not a tourney list, but fun to play with and against.

 

(Pkt. = short for points in german, sorry, but I'm too lazy to edit it)

 

*************** HQ ***************

 

Crowe

- - - > 150 Points

 

*************** Troops ***************

 

Purificator-Squad

9 Puris, 1 x Sword, 4 x Halberd, 5 x Stormbolter, 4 x Cannon

+ Flame Knight, Hammer, Sturmbolter -> 5 Pkt.

+ Razorback, HB+Psiammo -> 50 Pkt.

- - - > 343 Points

 

Purificator-Squad

9 Puris, 1 x Sword, 4 x Halberd, 5 x Stormbolter, 4 x Cannon

+ Flame Knight, Hammer, Sturmbolter -> 5 Pkt.

+ Razorback, HB+Psiammo -> 50 Pkt.

- - - > 343 Points

 

Purificator-Squad

9 Puris, 1 x Sword, 4 x Halberd, 5 x Stormbolter, 4 x Cannon

+ Flame Knight, Hammer, Sturmbolter -> 5 Pkt.

+ Razorback, HB+Psiammo -> 50 Pkt.

- - - > 343 Points

 

*************** Heavy ***************

 

NDK, 2 x Fist, HI, PT

- - - > 235 Points

 

NDK, 2 x Fist, HI, PT

- - - > 235 Points

 

NDK, 2 x Fist, HI, PT

- - - > 235 Points

 

_______________________

1784

[Gentlemanloser]

Do you want MSU like Units in Rhinos?

 

5 x Purifiers with 2 x Psycannons from Rhino's are awesome.

 

You can get the same, with Purgation Squads, but I prefer Purifiers because;

 

1: 2A for when you get assaulted

2: Fearless

3: They can be scoring with Crowe and don't require you to burn TGS on them

4: Cleansing Flame makes a mess of Hordes, and helps empower an MSU sized squad in CC

 

But, you really don't require Crowe, unless you're going to take enough Purifier units to really make it worth *not* using TGS to make 1-3 scoring.

 

A 5 man Puri Squad with Hammer and Rhino is 195 points (The Purgation equivalent is also 195 points!).

 

 

Or, do you want to use your Puri's to go beat face in CC? The first question, is how do you get them there? Are you splashing out on a LR or SR? If so, then you can plan to add in one of the ICs to buff them (Techmarine/BC). Do this, and I'd suggest dropping the special weapons for a CC load out.

 

A 10 man Puri Squad with Hammer and Halberd is 263. Quite an investment, especially before any attached ICs and Transports.

 

But you will eat face in CC with this unit.

 

While Strikes can DS in (and potentially in 6th Assault after DS), they are still worse than taking Puri's if you want beat face Marines. Strikes shouldn't be used for 'in your face' aggressiveness.

 

 

Another reason for taking Crowe, is whether you want to take either Termies or Strikes as your compulsory units. If you see no lace for them, then you're bound into using either Coteaz, Draigo or Crowe. And if you're not using Henchmen or Pallies, then Crowe it is. :lol:

 

I'd like to mess around with a GM and Crowe. That allows you to use your Puris as Troops, and use TGS to make your NDKs/Psyflemen Scoring. Or if that's not needed, then give Crowe Scout, reserve him, use PC to delay his arrival and outflank him. Surprise! :D

 

Personally, I'd like to mix and match Puri Loadouts, depending on the the design on the rest of my list. A couple of 5 man dual Psycannon squads in Rhinos coupled with one or two 10 man CC eat face squads. (And I'd use with Psyflemen or 5 man Strikes in Razors for Warp Quake for long range objective holding).

 

But I don't usually have the points for that! Especially as I love Pallies! :)

[08ak1]

I was in Fairbanks last month with my Grey Knights for ard boyz!

 

I say go for the list you've got as long as you have a plan for getting Crowe somewhere, he's a wonky dude not being an IC...

 

you could always invest in a stormraven and dreadnought, put crowe and the kan inside to ride across. The Raven can help share the shooting with your dreadknights if you shunt them forward with it. I would recommend choosing a flank and focusing on it don't ever fan out and give every melta or whatever short ranged tank they have something to do. Use the advancing purifiers in Rhino's to react to enemy's attempting to move away from your assault force. The Dreadnought is optional of course, but i'm a big fan of the assault cannon/storm bolter with psybolt ammo dreadnought and it gives Crowe some support.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Crowe has his uses, even beyond the simple fact that he unlocks Purifiers as Troops (and Purifiers are as close to the old-school GK you're gonna get these days, with halberds and Fearless); he's a nice objective defender as he can engage infantry units on his own. (I've seen him paired with a Vindicare for some solid effect: Vindicare picks off the Power Fist and in goes Crowe.)

 

Unless you need someone to fit inside a non-LR/SR transport, or to be near-unkillable in CC or to assassinate an opposing IC in CC, or to kill off hordes without even trying, or you need Troops that are more "Elite" than Henchmen or Termies or Strikes... No, they each have their uses.

 

He's a complete deadweight though. HQ slot gone, and 150pts you'll never get back. His combat abilities are utterly pathetic next to even a Librarian (who has an actual Attacks profile, psychic hax, stave etc). Grandmaster is his nail in the coffin. For a rather modest increase over Crowe, you get the ability to make Purifiers scoring when you need them to (ie 'Seize Ground' or whatever), but then switch them to Outflank or Counter-Attack in other missions. Not to mention, with his grenade access and still-awesome statline, GM is a great support character in his own right. And attachable+Deepstrike means he can almost anywhere.

 

Crowe just bums around, swinging his daemonsword of fail (hey guys, charge me and get Furious Charge for free), and doesn't achieve anything close to that flexibility.

 

The Brotherhood Champion is the only non-special character HQ unit that can embark in a Rhino; he doesn't wear Terminator armor. If you are looking for a budget HQ so you can mass spam Strikes (much like you may have once taken a budget Librarian in the vanilla dex to max spam tacticals) in Rhinos, he's your man. He's cheap, so you risk little when he charges in...and his charge can be pretty spectacular as any GK unit is far from helpless in an assault.

 

Unless you regularly face opponents who bring psychic defense and the Libby would be near useless, or an IC who can ride in a Rhino/Razorback with your PA squads, or to be near-unkillable in CC, or who can almost assassinate an opposing IC in CC... No, they each have their uses.

 

But you never will, because of two things

 

A: No Grey Knight unit is less than 10-man, unless they're Paladins in smaller games (larger games people field the Deathblob and Combat squad them out for double threat)

B: Rhinos have 10-man capacity

 

If you want a dirt-cheap hero just to fill the slot, Coteaz is way better. Massing Strikes is a silly idea, but at least with dirt-cheap melta and Razorback support, you won't be so gimped.

 

There is no psychic defense in the game that will shut down a Librarian entirely, not even Runes of Facemelt or Shadow in the Warp. It's an circular argument to say 'oh they have psychic hoods/rune staffs, I'm not going to bother'. Our entire army lives or dies on psychic powers. The Librarian is pretty close to an auto-include in most armies, just because his abilities are so hard to replicate, and they work so well with the Knight's style of warfare. Yes, certain armies and builds are going to screw with your casting. Those same factors don't stop Wolf players fielding Rune Priests en-masse, or BA taking Mephiston/cheap Librarian, or even vanilla Marines fielding their solid Librarians.

 

I sincerely wish both Crowe and Bro Champ were good characters. Their background is compelling, they are vital members of their respective institutions (Bro Champs train every Knight of their Brotherhood from the day they become an Initiate, Crowe is the head of a Brotherhood of utterly pure veterans). 'The Perfect Warrior' was badly implemented, leaving combat characters that don't work in close-combat. Crowe in particular is such a missed oppertunity, because they left out IC status on him deliberately. Apparently, having attachable 'Cleansing Flame' was considered broken and too powerful. Instead, we get a character that takes up all the transport space of a tank, and can't ever hide otherwise.

 

However, unless you bring Storm Ravens or Land Raiders, they're foot-slogging. That is their only real detriment.

 

I hear this all the time, like its a bad thing. You don't want either character in combat quickly anyway. In the early game, 'Shrouding' and 'Sanctuary' are very useful, and 'Psychic Communion' gets in the Outflanking (thanks to TGS) you're doing with other support units. Even if you don't field the Terminator blob (which I highly recommend), you can attach either character to Strike or Purifier squads in the mobile gunline and get plenty of utility out of them.

 

Stormravens are just not viable, in a meta-game where AV12 is so easily crippled or destroyed. Guard don't field lone Valkyries, you have to mass them. Knights don't have the points to spare usually, and our units function better on foot anyway (because we have actual firepower, we're not pure close-combat).

Landraider Redeemer I might take for a Death-Cult unit, but same thing; giant pointsink that doesn't synergise well with the rest of the Knight army.

 

While cheap melta+Razorspam has certainly been shown to be effective, its not everyone's cup of tea. An old school GK player may not be particularly interested in the "latest and greatest" metagame units since they've used the oldies for so long.

 

Dude, whatever strategies and tactics you used in the old codex, throw them down the drain. Our new codex retains the feel and theme of Daemonhunters, but in almost every other aspect, we are a different army now. We have new units, new abilities, new powers...I cannot express how much of a change this new edition is.

The closest you can get to the old bad ways of yesteryear is the Purifier spam army. You have your largely-useless hero, lots of power-armoured manz that are expensive but very deadly, and halberds everywhere. And even then, it's still a pretty good list, although anything geared towards killing Marines at range is going to chew through you in short order (Dark Eldar spring to mind).

I get what you mean, Henchmen don't suit every army, and I kinda delineate my lists between ones with Coteaz and pure Knights. Both work, so it's largely a question of what you like to field.

 

Not trying to pick on you personally, Darius, just statements like "every conceivable way" are rarely accurate, and I like encouraging diversity instead of cookie cutters

 

Yeah, but you wanna be up front too. Some units are just flat-out terrible, and no amount of theorising or usage is going to change that. Crowe is the definition of great idea, poor execution. Bro Champ is not quite as bad, as he's at least attachable and cheap. Knights are more reliant on their heroes than most armies, because of the way our units function. Paladins and Purifiers can do ok soloing (they're great Outflanking or Deepstriking units respectively), but Terminators and Strikes need buffing, and all of them function best with character support.

 

Even without using Crowe or Bro Champ, you can still field a wide range of armies. I'm not really trying to limit people's choices, I'm just saying, don't take the bad stuff. Like, the really bad stuff :P . There is plenty of solid to awesome choices floating around our codex, there is no need to hobble yourself.

[thade]

You deal in a great many absolutes.

 

Crowe will wreck a tactical squad if they don't have a power fist; he'll take them down all by himself. Even a little support means he's sure to win.

 

There are plenty of reasons to take GKSSs at less than ten man, probably the most popular of which being that you want to squeeze an IC or two into a Rhino with them. That you never do this and/or see no merit in this isn't enough: if that Strike Squad is intended for mid-range skirmishing then storm bolters and a champ may be the right load out for them. Or perhaps they're a delivery system/escort for some PA'd Inquistor. Or maybe they're a Combat Squad in a Razorback and - hey - there's a slot left open. ;)

 

All of this, of course, discounts variety, which is a valid motivator in and of itself.

[Something Wycked]

Some units are just flat-out terrible, and no amount of theorising or usage is going to change that. Crowe is the definition of great idea, poor execution. Bro Champ is not quite as bad, as he's at least attachable and cheap. Knights are more reliant on their heroes than most armies, because of the way our units function. Paladins and Purifiers can do ok soloing (they're great Outflanking or Deepstriking units respectively), but Terminators and Strikes need buffing, and all of them function best with character support.

That whole paragraph, Darius, is full opinion- other than the last half a sentence. Almost every unit will function better with character support ;)

 

That's okay though, everyone's entitled to opinions and yours is definitely worth hearing (I've seen a lot of the good stuff that you know :) ), but please don't present it as irrefutable fact.

 

I've run Crowe lists, and he wrecks face if you give him half a chance and don't just suicide run him down the board. BC does the same if you protect him with a squad and use him correctly. I don't see that GK's are more reliant on heroes than my C:BA or my C:SM. In fact, I bring the Grandmaster only as a very expensive Grand Strategy dispenser- not as a melee beast. I don't typically put the cool grenades on him and go all assaulty with him because that's not how my army works- I'm mobile and shooty, and the GM just anchors my objective-holding Strikes and makes D3 other units more flexible. I don't see that Strikes need "buffing" at all unless you're trying to use them for purposes for which they are not designed, ie, assaulting units that are better than them in melee :jaw: My Strikes have performed quite excellently in the role I use them in; they do a fantastic job of holding down an objective and shooting down anything that comes their way.

 

...variety... is a valid motivator in and of itself.

+1 ;)

[Inquisitor =D=]

I'd like to mess around with a GM and Crowe. That allows you to use your Puris as Troops, and use TGS to make your NDKs/Psyflemen Scoring. Or if that's not needed, then give Crowe Scout, reserve him, use PC to delay his arrival and outflank him. Surprise! :huh:

 

You sir have now given me an idea, a very worthwhile and nutty idea. Outflank Crowe and a NDK or assault dread onto the foes backside, give em something to worry about.

 

And personally Crowe and the Champion easily fit into my usual list. Ultimate tarpit Crowe is, can hold down any unit AND possibly come out of it alive. And the Champion can make or break a charge, which is how my knights dismount from the raiders in style.

 

=]D[=

[thade]

Crowe is definitely not a charge in/guns'a'blazing model. He's one single model with a 2+/4++ and no EW. He's got what, two, three wounds? A full salvo of rapid-fire from a tactical squad will wipe him out. He can't survive that salvo and thus he should never be put into a position where he could receive it. He's like Mephiston-Light in that he will bring some pain, but he can't fly and he can't take even a fraction of the beating; he is the Honor Guard in the Vanilla marine codex, in one model.

 

Ways to use him: he stays in the back, near your back-field objective holding unit; he slogs up behind the Land Raider; he makes like an Eversor and rides around solo in a Storm Raven, looking for a place to go Jet Li. You want him to be in an assault and you want him to be the one that picked the fight. If either of those aren't true, he's toast. He has a very small set of use cases.

 

Typical ways to use him that result in him dying and getting a bad wrap: foot slogging him out in the open or even somewhere that he's visible; exposing him to a charge; rip up a tac squad in the middle of the table and consolidate him no where safe because you simply can't reach. I don't recommend out-flanking him. In fact, you can't, unless the Storm Raven has that built in. Aren't HQs unable to benefit from the GM's Grand Strat rule? Anyway, he can't hide behind a DK in a satisfactory way, so it's all around not what I'd recommend. <3

[Gentlemanloser]

Aren't HQs unable to benefit from the GM's Grand Strat rule?

 

ICs are.

 

But Crowe isn't an IC, so he's fair game for TGS. ;)

 

Scoring Crowe? :P

 

Edit: Mordrak can also make use of his own TGS, *if* he doesn't take a Ghost Knight retinue. Which then throws up the interesting Question of;

 

"Does Mordrak remain Scoring if he summons a free Ghost Knight and become part of a Ghost Knight unit (which is specifically not able to be effected by TGS). If not, does he become scoring again if that Ghost Knight dies?"

 

Ah, GW and their non IC Character fails...

[Brother Valerius]

Crowe has his uses, even beyond the simple fact that he unlocks Purifiers as Troops (and Purifiers are as close to the old-school GK you're gonna get these days, with halberds and Fearless); he's a nice objective defender as he can engage infantry units on his own. (I've seen him paired with a Vindicare for some solid effect: Vindicare picks off the Power Fist and in goes Crowe.)

 

Unless you need someone to fit inside a non-LR/SR transport, or to be near-unkillable in CC or to assassinate an opposing IC in CC, or to kill off hordes without even trying, or you need Troops that are more "Elite" than Henchmen or Termies or Strikes... No, they each have their uses.

 

He's a complete deadweight though. HQ slot gone, and 150pts you'll never get back. His combat abilities are utterly pathetic next to even a Librarian (who has an actual Attacks profile, psychic hax, stave etc). Grandmaster is his nail in the coffin. For a rather modest increase over Crowe, you get the ability to make Purifiers scoring when you need them to (ie 'Seize Ground' or whatever), but then switch them to Outflank or Counter-Attack in other missions. Not to mention, with his grenade access and still-awesome statline, GM is a great support character in his own right. And attachable+Deepstrike means he can almost anywhere.

 

You're overlooking the crucial fact that scoring is not the same as being Troops. What if you want something other than Purifiers in your Elites slots? What if you want to take more than 3 units of Purifiers? A GM won't help you then.

 

I won't deny that a GM is better than Crowe in certain respects. I probably wouldn't even try to argue that this is true in most respects (although I don't really agree). But you said that a GM is better in "every conceivable way", when that is simply untrue.