Revelation Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Anik Taranis, one of the last surviving Thunder Warriors (who even the Space Marines of the Outcast Dead seemed to awe him, since it is stated that they were the first supermen created by the Emperor, the precursors to the Space Marines, who were even stronger, powerful and mightier than the Space Marines themselves except in life longevity) stated that after the last battle to unite Terra, the Emperor cast them aside and took the credit for the Unification of Terra. Anik even states that the Emperor (or maybe not the Emperor himself, but his scribes and thralls who served him [My personal opinion]) created a lie that stated that Anik Taranis “ The Lightning Bearer” and the rest of Thunder Warrior’s died at the last battle of Unity. He goes on to state that their bodies were created to be obsolete since they were created only to conquer a world not a galaxy (meaning that even though they are stronger than Space Marines, they don’t live as long as one). It kind of baffles me that the Emperor will do such a thing to the very same men who sacrificed themselves to see his vision come to light. * It is also interesting to note that Atharva pointed out that even after the betrayal of the Emperor that Anik Taranis did not “bear his creator no ill-will” (pg. 406). I personally think this shows the loyalty that these warriors had or still have for the Emperor and no matter what transpires between them, they will not hold any grudges of ill-will intent towards the man who created them. (My opinion) I don’t really know why Anik states that they weren’t created for Galactic conquest, I mean the Geno-Two-Five Chilliad were still commissioned to fight during the Great Crusade. If it’s because of their short longevity compared to Space Marines, they clearly and most likely still outlive the normal men and woman of the Imperial Army. Why cast aside men who were also the precursors to the Space Marines, when they could have been put to great use such as: - Placing them to lead and teach the young and inexperienced Space Marine Legions (The Legions before any of the Primarchs were found during the first battles of the Great Crusade) - As commanders of Expeditionary Forces, body guards, instructors. Seems like a waste of time and effort to throw away supermen that could crush Space Marines to a pulp, let alone a great betrayal to those men on the Emperors part… Btw, sorry for the rant, I really enjoyed this novel, going back to reading it a second time :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Well one of the things Arik says to the Outcast Dead is stating to the effect that the Emperor needed to be the sole unifier of Terra in order to build his Galaxy of Man. He also stated that it would look bad if people realized the Emperor had an indestructible force behind him, not just Big E's Tower of Intellect and Might. It is stated in the book that the Thunder Warriors understood only conquest but Arik is obviously brilliant; Arik understands he and the others like him were tools for the job at the time. They were superior warriors but not built to last and they had a flaw in the Emperor's Grand Plan from the Alpha Legion book (which is Alpha Legion opinion granted, but fits with the Dune stuff and makes sense) The Forced Evolution thing I spout about in the other thread would be difficult to achieve if you have a killing machine *that* perfect, let alone an army of them to conquer your foes. How would humanity get any tougher if the galaxy was at peace? Look where that led the Eldar. Another incident like that would likely destroy all the material realm. Back to why the Big E did not need the Thunder Warriors anymore; Space Marines are imperfect. They are susceptible to the Psykers; Arik is not. Space Marines are vulnerable to human emotion; Arik is not. In order to sustain a fine balance of death, destruction, mayhem, malaise and grimdark that we know as 40k FOREVER and ensure long-term species survival, the Emperor needed to create a playing field level enough for Humans to live on and perhaps win. Otherwise humans would fall to the destruction or martyrdom described in Legion[/i, or fall into a state of complete apathy will total victory, which also results in a victory for the Four Powers. Imperfect warriors enable the species to survive; Thunder Warriors would not. They are too good at what they do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2910906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Well thunder warriors are probably useless because of cost/efficiency ratio. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2910915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Well thunder warriors are probably useless because of cost/efficiency ratio. That was my opinion too. Plus I believe they are a liability. Terra needed bloody handed armies to conquer bloody handed tyrants and psychic scourges, but the galaxy needed a level headed force able to conquer the worst opponents but also be able to stay their hands. Even the World Eaters have an honour code (pre-Heresy specifically). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2910923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Well damn.. That sounds interesting. I might actually pick this one up.. (was gonna skip it) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2910953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Interesting to read, I have this book on order. Before I read this post I thought the Thunder Warriors were inferior to Space Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2910986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 They are, depending on the definition of "inferior" in relation to the task in hand. :) An Ork Nob is arguably bigger, stronger and tougher than a single "average" Space Marine, but the Space Marine is still superior because of all his other attributes. Specifically, superior in the needs of the Imperium. The book is a good read and really hammers home the dislocated nature of humanity in the setting, loosely held together by the Emperor and his ideals. It is very good at showing how the Empire is all reaching and there are gaps humanity have exploited to be not part of the Imperium. Terra itself is a dark place to live. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2911031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Captain Idaho i am holding you responsible for me buying this book! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2911156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Captain Idaho i am holding you responsible for me buying this book! :) I'll apologise IF you don't like it! Just let me know! :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2911195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelation Posted October 28, 2011 Author Share Posted October 28, 2011 They are, depending on the definition of "inferior" in relation to the task in hand. ^_^ An Ork Nob is arguably bigger, stronger and tougher than a single "average" Space Marine, but the Space Marine is still superior because of all his other attributes. Specifically, superior in the needs of the Imperium. Anik states that they weren't built to last, they weren't created to "conquer a galaxy" only Terra itself. I agree that the Emperor probably needed men that could take down tyrants and the strongest opposition thrown at them but still hold their hands when the needed to. Since the Thunder Warriors were probably created just to fight and eliminate all the opposition without remorse (Anik was in control and ruled the Petitioner City with an iron fist as stated by the Priest of the Death Church, even innocents were killed and butchered). Also by the way Anik acts, we can assume that Thunder Warriors had a sense of free will to act how they pleased, even the Space Marines of the Outcast Dead wanted to return back to their Primarchs to find out for themselves if their gene-fathers became traitors or not because of a sense of duty and loyalty (Torgue stated that if Angron was indeed a traitor, than he will raise his chain-ax towards Angron and die trying to stop him). So from the looks of it, Thunder Warriors were mightier than Space Marines but "inferior" in the sense that they were just butchers. Just like you said that even the Sons of Angron had a code of Honour and respect. By the way, did anybody find it amusing when the World Eater sergeant tried to keep/have a conversation with the small boy at the church? To me it kinda broke the 4th barrier since I found it completely weird that a Space Marine, let alone a World Eater who only knows fighting and killing was trying to have a conversation with a boy (I say it breaks the 4th barrier because he himself [The World Eater sergeant] finds it completely weird trying to have small talk, something we to will find weird and awkward lol)...Maybe the authors are fixing and placing the World Eaters in a new light to get them ready for the new novel Butchers Nail? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2911249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I mean the Geno-Two-Five Chilliad were still commissioned to fight during the Great Crusade. Keep in mind though that the Chiliad (and other units like them) were not engineered in the way a Thunder Warrior and a Marine are. They are a product of breeding programs rather than implanted organs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2911317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 It kind of baffles me that the Emperor will do such a thing to the very same men who sacrificed themselves to see his vision come to light. The background of the Heresy, Imperium and Great Crusade has long required that the Emperor be either an idiot or a dick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2911359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I'll apologise IF you don't like it! Just let me know! :P Will do. B) The background of the Heresy, Imperium and Great Crusade has long required that the Emperor be either an idiot or a dick. Agreed, although i think the Emperor's image has been ruined by the novels and authors trying to engineer a back story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2911421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theis Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 I dunno. I'm willing to give the guys writing the Heresy the benefit of the doubt. Sure, so far it looks like the big E is either "an idiot, or a dick," but he must have some compelling reason to be so. Is it a self centered desire for godhood, or a set of seemingly necessary evil steps taken in an effort to to avoid some truly horrific fate? Is the sole error in his grandiose plan the amount of faith he places in the flawed vessels of his "sons" to adhere to his conceptions of them, rather than the realities of them? I think these guys can tell us which it is in a pretty entertaining fashion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2911502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Every depiction of the Emperor I've seen, including the more intimate interactions with characters scattered throughout the series, is of sincerity and understanding. This latest book reveals the Emperor himself is aware of the Heresy and what must be done to save humanity, including his own sacrifice. He is sombre and resigned to fate, but does seem to have some sort of plan implied in the way he talks to Kai. I certainly doubt he is an idiot or anything worse. I just think he has a problem that is taking up his time we don't know about, including being made worse by Magnus' little shennanigans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2911648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 spoilers.. Ok I read it. It was a little slow with those astropaths but at about page 200 picked up very nicely. The thunder warrior dude was quite an interesting take. Personally I felt the book portrayed the Emperor pretty well. I never liked him anyway, Chaos you know. But for once I feel like I understand his motivations. This is probably the only HH book that has done that for me. Him playing regicide (chess) with Kai (psychic vision). He goes on about how to win, and I got the sense that he relates the entire galaxy to regicide, it explains why he will sacrifice people/warriors without a second thought. The goal of victory is all that he cares about. So he conquers Terra then abandons his thunder warriors for Space marines, because they were just tools. The space marines in turn would then be abandoned with a pacified galaxy and he would then shape humankind itself towards his designs. Now we knew all but the Thunder warriors bit already, but I felt it was framed in a way that made a lot of sense. To use octavulg's language the Emperor is a dick (not an idiot). He is ruthlessly intent on shaping the galaxy to his design. But this is the first HH book where I gained respect for the Emperor. Also the World Eaters after battle chant was nice. It finishes with "War cares not from whence the blood flows." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2911649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Less of the swearing please. ...He is ruthlessly intent on shaping the galaxy to his design. But this is the first HH book where I gained respect for the Emperor. He isn't doing it completely ruthlessly. He is compassionate, but puts the greater needs before his or anyone elses own. After all he gave Magnus, Lorgar, Angron and Nighthaunter second chances. More importantly he also is prepared to sacrifice himself to win, which means he is not a tyrant shaping the galaxy to HIS design, rather working for Humanity itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2911744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theis Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Asking no more of any individual than he is willing to give himself, the stuff of leadership... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2912075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I really enjoyed it! It made me feel a bit sad in the end! Mr McNeill is a great writer, indeed its mentioned in the book that Magnus was to be brought back to Earth alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2912513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mawhis Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Did anyone else notice the reference to Alpharius/Omegon post istvaan V in the psychic message: "Twins conjoined by a single soul, tugging in different directions." (page 161) could it be possible that one brother is loyal, and the other traitor? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2912542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Yeah I picked up on it. I can actually envisage the two of them fighting it out to the death and we won't know which one of them won because they are twins... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2912566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mawhis Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 maybe they'll turn out to be the dark angels in reverse Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2912588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 maybe they'll turn out to be the dark angels in reverse Meaning what exactly? :) I hope its nots some reference to the ludicrous (and resoundingly debunked) theory that the DA are Traitors that somehow stumbled into being Loyalists, because seeing someone still clinging to that theory would be just plain sad. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2912616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkana Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 maybe they'll turn out to be the dark angels in reverse That would be oddly fitting, IMO, considering they're the first and last Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2912617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Question: p. 134 "It will mean the Wolves will be loosed again." (after the Cryptowhatever guy realizes that Magnus effed up) Reference to the two missing Legions/Primarch, or am I missing a vital part of 40k fluff? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/#findComment-2912814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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