Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Question:p. 134 "It will mean the Wolves will be loosed again." (after the Cryptowhatever guy realizes that Magnus effed up) Reference to the two missing Legions/Primarch, or am I missing a vital part of 40k fluff? Without reading the Outcast Dead, i can only say that in Prospero Burns it is said by Leman Russ to Kasper Hawser that the Wolves have fought against other Astartes before, in keeping with the "executioner" theme that A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns created. also, in nemesis, one of the assassains mentions that he has killed astartes before, so there is some history of this kind of action happening before. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2912826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 i would disagree that the Thunder Warriors are cast aside because they are "butchers" it seems that they were cast aside because they are not and maybe couldn't be brain washed like Astartes, they had too much free will and if they were given the amount of military might that the Astartes had pre-heresy, they might have rebelled, created their own separate dominion and that could not be allowed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2912831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 i would disagree that the Thunder Warriors are cast aside because they are "butchers"it seems that they were cast aside because they are not and maybe couldn't be brain washed like Astartes, they had too much free will and if they were given the amount of military might that the Astartes had pre-heresy, they might have rebelled, created their own separate dominion and that could not be allowed. I agree but I do think their blood thirsty nature was a factor. They are like super World Eaters (loyalist era). As for Space Wolves, think it is certain they were involved in the destruction/censorship of Space Marines before, which makes the loss of a missing Legion thanks to them possible. The Outcast Dead heavily supports this notion in that one paragraph mentioned above. Of course they could have also been used to eliminate rogue Legion forces like Companies and Chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2912890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Thanks WLK. I knew there'd been something about it in PB, but just wasn't sure. Also, I'm not sure whether it was this thread or not, but the point whether the Emperor knew what was going to happen and planned accordingly came up, and everything I've read so far (I just finished the regicide game) says no. Edit: Just finished. Seems more like the Emperor knew what he had to do, and that even though the fact that the Imperium would stagnate was a future, the words "...if our game has taught my anything, it is that all things are possible" seem more like an admission that the Emperor knows that, as he successively admits, he will die but that there is always hope. Maybe in the form of the 'time of ending', maybe in the form of the Star Child myth, whatever. Also: did the Emperor give Kai his eyes back? S'far as I know, it's implied. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2913697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 He did. It was also a metaphor. The symbolism was the burden to the Emperor was lightened, his mission ended. His connection to the Emperor was through the Soul Binding, of which the physical manifestation is the loss of one's eyes. Returning his eyes represents the Emperor no longer needing Kai's service. It is also a metaphor for understanding, though a simple and all too obvious one. His eyes are now open to the magnatude of the events but also he knows what his role was in the scheme of things. He knows the Emperor's intent in the upcoming war. He was blind to it but can now see it, so this is represented literally in his physical blindness being removed and his sight restored. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2913848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus6 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I find it interesting that the Emperor is in a constant state of learning and modification; using various tools and people to further his cause and the cause of mankind. The ebb and flow of levels of strength and tolerance to use it seen in the Primarchs, the Custodes, the Space Marines and now another piece is shown with the Thunder Warriors. Its like he (the big E) is constantly looking for that almost "cookie cutter" solution to set problems and when that issue is settled he lays it (the tools) aside without reason of malice or afterthought and then wonders why they are not willing tools later. Its cold, calculating and dare I say inhuman,... Its odd, very odd to say the least,.... As for the Wolves being his hit squad; you send barbarians to accomplish barbaric actions. Thats not a "poke in the eye", its a simple fact. What I wonder is why the Emperor would purposely pit one of his sons as the "heavy" when he already had a tool that could do just that. A single Legion of Thunder Warriors loyal only to "the man" could have easily done that job. You have the Custodes for internal security and the Thunder Warriors for outer security. The built in safety valve is that you only have a single Legion of them and they are designed for only one role. They do not take part in the Great Crusade but they watch those that do,... Severus6 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2913929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 He must have found something faulty in their design, or perhaps questioned just how loyal they could be, or perhaps Babu is correct that the Emperor wanted the glory all to himself. I thought Babu was VERY interesting and it looks like there is possibility for him to re-surface. I never knew the Thunder Warriors were stronger than 30k/40k Adeptus Astartes. Craziness! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2913937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Think we need to be careful of drawing too definite a conclusion regarding the strengths of Thunder Warriors and Legiones Astartes in general from this book. Arik Taranis was clearly described as an exceptional champion among the Thunder Warriors, perhaps the greatest of them all, and Ghotb was his right hand man. It doesn't follow that all Thunder Warriors were as strong/tough etc. We've seen the same thing with Custodes vs Astartes. If Khârn or Abaddon ran into a bunch of 'normal' Thunder Warriors, they'd probably carve a bloody swathe through them. Similarly, that these two turned into vicious tyrants when abandoned tells us little about how loyal they were in general compared to Astartes. Marines turned traitor en masse for less provocation. I think the explanation would lie in the design being perfected to a) provide a longer life span; b ) provide easier mass production for the scale needed for galactic conquest (there have been similar references to why Astartes were preferred over Custodes for the legions), and c) to include the advances the Emperor salvaged from the Primarch project - which probably improved the design AND served to create a greater bond of loyalty between the Astartes and their Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2913964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Well, Arik mentions that they were stronger and hardier than the Adeptus Astartes. The key difference Space Marines live much longer and Thunder Warriors were to be stronger but much shorter lived. I do think in terms of one on one there are other factors to consider. In Outcast the space marines have no power armor. Power armor changes things considerably. Also in terms of tactics and strategy my assumption is that space marines would have an advantage versus the comparability more "brute" use of Thunder Warriors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2914049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I find it interesting that the Emperor is in a constant state of learning and modification; using various tools and people to further his cause and the cause of mankind. The ebb and flow of levels of strength and tolerance to use it seen in the Primarchs, the Custodes, the Space Marines and now another piece is shown with the Thunder Warriors. Its like he (the big E) is constantly looking for that almost "cookie cutter" solution to set problems and when that issue is settled he lays it (the tools) aside without reason of malice or afterthought and then wonders why they are not willing tools later. Its cold, calculating and dare I say inhuman,... Its odd, very odd to say the least,.... Ah Sev, the Emperor is not that heartless. He's a pragmatist! He showed compassion when talking to Kai, and I actually found him to be the kind of character who observes but can't do anything but steer in most situations. But he expects nothing off people he doesn't give himself. He knew what was expected of him when he confronted Horus (or he had a very good idea) going by this book, and being interred in the Golden Throne is the longest torture anyone has ever endured (10,000 years and counting). We don't really know what sort of "discarding" the Thunder Warriors underwent. They might not have just all been executed, or left for dead. They may just not have been made immortal and as such felt discarded when they couldn't progress into the Great Crusade. I have faith in my Emperor. ;) Well, Arik mentions that they were stronger and hardier than the Adeptus Astartes. The key difference Space Marines live much longer and Thunder Warriors were to be stronger but much shorter lived. I do think in terms of one on one there are other factors to consider. In Outcast the space marines have no power armor. Power armor changes things considerably. Also in terms of tactics and strategy my assumption is that space marines would have an advantage versus the comparability more "brute" use of Thunder Warriors. Agreed. Not just the armour, but the faith and brotherhood work well too, they fight together and a Space Marine would gladly impale himself on his opponent's sword to lower the guard of a dangerous opponent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2914198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Yeah, the power armor thing is a big thing too. I have no source for this, but would suspect the Thunder Warriors didn't have the black carapace. Put the Thunder warriors in their gear, and put the Astartes in Mk 4 or later armor and we'll see. I know Arik did say they're tougher, but I still don't think we should consider him to be typical of his breed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2914296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I haven't finished reading the book yet but on the topic of Thunder Warriors being better than Astartes. Just because something might be bigger and stronger doesn't make it better. Argel Tal muses on these things in TFH in relation to Custodes vs Astartes. Different tools for different purposes. You don't bring a butter knife to a sword fight just like you wouldn't butter your bread with a gladius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2914347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus6 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 One mans progamatist is anothers man tyrant. I think the Emperor knows full well what he is doing when he allows Kai to be relieved of his duty. It is no different than giving a favored pet some scraps from the table,... I have faith in my Emperor as well. I have full faith and confidence that he will do whatever he needs to do to win. Just like me,.... :P Sev Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2914374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I thought the novel was a wonderful addition to the series. I really hope Graham McNeill is involved in the final seige on terra (with A D-B and Dan Abnett writing a trilogy to cap it off?) along with the short story "The last church" he really seems to be great at describing the emperor. It also seems he has a researcher streak to him (chess references beyond something pathetic like a known opening 40k'ed, etc, or atheist/religious argumentation) that could bring another aspect to the table. The story seemed slow in building up, but what I loved about it was the constant flux of the "implied ending". I expect most people expected it to end differently, and even more, that perception changed as the story went on. Nice twists... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2914385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I liked it well enough, but I've liked McNeil's other HH novels more. It had some very interesting things in there - the detail of the City of Sight, the life on Terra at the fringes of society, the global impact of the moment Magnus's great mistake, and the World Eaters were great additions to the universe. Unusually for Mr McNeil, who I really really like as a 40k, and especially as a HH author, I felt the pacing struggled a little at times, and some of the characters, especially Severin "the Wolf" - the lone Luna Wolf - weren't fleshed out as I hoped. I really thought he would do something cool in the story and he was potentially the most interesting character - a lone member of Horus' own legion, isolated from his master for decades, on Terra! I hope there's another novel or short story coming with him in it. This might just be a personal thing as well, but I always like 40k/HH stories when they aren't too heavy on the "super-psyker" syndrome. Psykers and their powers are cool, but best in small doses, IMO. The Thousand Son character trod the line of overwhelming the rest of the story at times. I kinda of prefer more limited psyker abilities - closer to the level of power you see in the tabletop game, where they can't just liquify the brains of the entire opposing army or whatever. A book like "A Thousand Sons" is different as that the entire premise of that book, but in general, happier not seeing "Alpha-Plus" psykers and the inevitable pariahs chasing them or having some decent plot device that explains why they don't just magic their way out of problems. Final minor gripe, I think this confirms my suspicion that I'm not a huge fan of the "ad hoc group from a variety of Legions thrown together" scenario. I reckon it's really hard for an author to raise individual characters above their legion archetypes in that kind of scenario - ie the Death Guard will be stoic and leary of frippery, the Emperors Children will be a vain perfectionist, the World Eaters barely (or not at all) contained beserkers etc. My, that's a lot of "minor issues" for a book I enjoyed. Some of them probably stood out because everything McNeil writes is so good, and the strong parts of this book were really strong. Solid 7/10 for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2914704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I felt Serverin was a character with unfulfilled potential but maybe the plan is to have a plot relating to him and the Thunder Warriors? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2914766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I felt Serverin was a character with unfulfilled potential but maybe the plan is to have a plot relating to him and the Thunder Warriors? I think Alarik and Severian, will play some future role. Just MHO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2914932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Just finished reading it, and I have to say I enjoyed it quite a bit. McNeill delivered an above average HH book, and I would give The Outcast Dead 7 or 8 out of 10. I was kind of expecting the chase after Kai and the other Space Marines to stretch over the entire novel, but that didn`t bother me at all. I`ll most likely read it again a few times. But there were a couple of things that didn`t sit too well with me. The prison escape scene was hard to digest; all the stuff Atharva pulled with his powers made me think of him as a walking, genehanced get out of jail free card. I simply found all of it a bit unbelievable, even for a Thousand Sons psyker. Then there was Kiron, who got himself killed because he was angry someone ended his perfect score of headshots, which was a bit strange even for a member of the Emperor`s Children, and Tagore, who can apparently punch his way through a suit of personal armor that can stop weapons fire without shattering his fist bones. I also think the Custodes were a bit underpowered. As it concernes the Thunder Warriors being better then Astartes, I don`t think that was as decisevly shown as people believe. Gotha managed to kill Kiron for the most part because everyone except Atharva underestimated him, and the very idea that the Thunder Warriors were stronger and hardier is just Gotha talking to Anik Taranis. I also think it is important to remember Ahriman`s comment on the Thunder Warriors back in A Thousand Sons about them for a reason why they were cast aside; the majority couldn`t cope with the changes they went through and went mad. With that and other disadvantages the Thunder Warriors had mentioned in this thread, I think it is understandable that they were dispose-, er, forcibly retired. Anik and Gotha seem to be the exception, not the rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2914943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucifer216 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Did anyone else read the book and feel sorry for the Emperor? "I went to all the trouble to give him new eyes and what does he do? Blow his brains out. That's gratitude for you!" Also, it did feel a bit weird, in that the Emperor could have quite possibly asked for someone to bring him the Astropath, thereby removing any need for messy interrogation and removing the risk that the Astropath might have died during the escape staged by the Outcast Dead. After all, its not like its the 41st millenium, when the Emperor can't just pick up the grimdark future equivalent of a phone and order his subjects around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2914965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 is this book out now then? (nearly finished a thousand sons and looking for next book to read now...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2915003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru2012 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Just finished it, I really enjoyed it. It's kind of confirmed what I believed all along, that the Emperor wasn't a douche idiot. He knew what was happening and had accepted it. As for his use of soldiery and then their subsequent discarding, again, I think it show his views for humanity. He would do anything to protect it. He was a true follower of Exitus Acta Probat as long as it is for the greater good! It was just bastardized in the 10k years after the heresy to the point where the top dogs are protected but no one else matters! It's pretty much like any form of government thats been around, it all starts of with good intentions for the entirety of humanity, but through time power changes, the creators leave/die/get old and the newbloods take over, and they care not for the ideals of their elders and you it to further only people who can scratch their back. Like Winston Churchill said: It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2915018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturnn Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Question:p. 134 "It will mean the Wolves will be loosed again." (after the Cryptowhatever guy realizes that Magnus effed up) Reference to the two missing Legions/Primarch, or am I missing a vital part of 40k fluff? Probably. In First Heretic is some part where Lorgar, i think, says that Russ loose already to of his brothers. So it looks like Russ was more than once send to destroy other Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2915154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I thought the novel was a wonderful addition to the series. I really hope Graham McNeill is involved in the final seige on terra But the Ultramarines weren't even involved in the siege. So how would he be going to smear them and their use of the Codex Astartes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2915168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazabi24 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Did anyone else read the book and feel sorry for the Emperor? "I went to all the trouble to give him new eyes and what does he do? Blow his brains out. That's gratitude for you!" Also, it did feel a bit weird, in that the Emperor could have quite possibly asked for someone to bring him the Astropath, thereby removing any need for messy interrogation and removing the risk that the Astropath might have died during the escape staged by the Outcast Dead. After all, its not like its the 41st millenium, when the Emperor can't just pick up the grimdark future equivalent of a phone and order his subjects around. Well, I guess the emperor's precognition told him that Kai needed to go though the entire Journey that he went though to be able to unlock the memories or something like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2915224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galadren Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I don't think the Emperor is ruthless or a dick. Look at it this way. You are...40,000 years old, give or take? You have been there and seen it all. You have conquered the galaxy, all in the name of unifying humanity. Don't you think at some point he'd have learned that making an omelet involves breaking a few eggs? What are the lives of a few compared to the lives of trillions? I think the Emperor cares and is saddened that he has to sacrifice some, but in the end that is what it takes to get the job done. I think the most telling scene was when the one guy after the Pattern (forgot his name and don't have the book handy) figures it all out and sees the future and the Emperor on the Golden Throne ten thousand years from now turns to regard him through time and space. And the guy senses the Emperor's suffering. And not just suffering, but the fact that the Emperor suffers without complaint because that's what he has to do to protect humanity. Someone mentioned leadership earlier. I think this is the Emperor taking leadership to the highest level: doing whatever it takes, ANYTHING, to ensure the survival of humanity. I mean yeah, life in 40k is harsh and horrific by the standards of today and even the citizens of the Heresy era. But what's the alternative? Chaos and daemon worlds. And even then you find out in "Legion" Horus would conquer the galaxy then wipe humanity out in a giant fit of self hatred. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/2/#findComment-2915403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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