tiberium40k Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 But the Ultramarines weren't even involved in the siege. So how would he be going to smear them and their use of the Codex Astartes? The same way he wrote the rest of his non-Ultramarines related HH stories. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2915647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Does anyone know who scared off Ghota and tore up his junior "Thunder Warrior" copies when he went to collect Roxanne in the Death Church? I am still trying to piece that one together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2916208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazabi24 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Does anyone know who scared off Ghota and tore up his junior "Thunder Warrior" copies when he went to collect Roxanne in the Death Church? I am still trying to piece that one together. I'm guessing that it was the Emperor trying to facilitate Kai's meeting with Roxanne by keeping Roxanne alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2916226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I liked it well enough, but I've liked McNeil's other HH novels more. It had some very interesting things in there - the detail of the City of Sight, the life on Terra at the fringes of society, the global impact of the moment Magnus's great mistake, and the World Eaters were great additions to the universe. Unusually for Mr McNeil, who I really really like as a 40k, and especially as a HH author, I felt the pacing struggled a little at times, and some of the characters, especially Severin "the Wolf" - the lone Luna Wolf - weren't fleshed out as I hoped. I really thought he would do something cool in the story and he was potentially the most interesting character - a lone member of Horus' own legion, isolated from his master for decades, on Terra! I hope there's another novel or short story coming with him in it. This might just be a personal thing as well, but I always like 40k/HH stories when they aren't too heavy on the "super-psyker" syndrome. Psykers and their powers are cool, but best in small doses, IMO. The Thousand Son character trod the line of overwhelming the rest of the story at times. I kinda of prefer more limited psyker abilities - closer to the level of power you see in the tabletop game, where they can't just liquify the brains of the entire opposing army or whatever. A book like "A Thousand Sons" is different as that the entire premise of that book, but in general, happier not seeing "Alpha-Plus" psykers and the inevitable pariahs chasing them or having some decent plot device that explains why they don't just magic their way out of problems. Final minor gripe, I think this confirms my suspicion that I'm not a huge fan of the "ad hoc group from a variety of Legions thrown together" scenario. I reckon it's really hard for an author to raise individual characters above their legion archetypes in that kind of scenario - ie the Death Guard will be stoic and leary of frippery, the Emperors Children will be a vain perfectionist, the World Eaters barely (or not at all) contained beserkers etc. My, that's a lot of "minor issues" for a book I enjoyed. Some of them probably stood out because everything McNeil writes is so good, and the strong parts of this book were really strong. Solid 7/10 for me. I actually agree. While it was an okay book, I felt like it didn't have that much to contribute to the HH as a whole. Other than the 'oh, so THAT'S why the Golden man was so angry with Magnus, he made half of Terra insane' moment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2916270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Does anyone know who scared off Ghota and tore up his junior "Thunder Warrior" copies when he went to collect Roxanne in the Death Church? I am still trying to piece that one together. I'm guessing that it was the Emperor trying to facilitate Kai's meeting with Roxanne by keeping Roxanne alive. It was the statue daemon I believe. It was momentarily powered by the blood and guts of that guy who Ghota shot. Though I might have got that wrong, since the motives of the Daemon would be unclear. Still, not sure why Kai would done that really. Oh yeah, wanted to point out the dream invader being the Emperor was awesome. He was basically one of the supreme Pyskers of old who ran the world, the last one. Liked the book for the insights to the Emperor and Terra, even though it added little really to the enfolding events. It just added depth to events that occurred which was fine by me! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2916333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Does anyone know who scared off Ghota and tore up his junior "Thunder Warrior" copies when he went to collect Roxanne in the Death Church? I am still trying to piece that one together. Roxanne unveiled her third eye and looked at them - a navigators eye kills anyone who looks at it. It was a confusingly written scene, I think because it wasn't meant to be immediately obvious she was a navigator at that point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2916347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 It was the statue daemon I believe. It was momentarily powered by the blood and guts of that guy who Ghota shot. Though I might have got that wrong, since the motives of the Daemon would be unclear. Still, not sure why Kai would done that really. Oh yeah, wanted to point out the dream invader being the Emperor was awesome. He was basically one of the supreme Pyskers of old who ran the world, the last one. Liked the book for the insights to the Emperor and Terra, even though it added little really to the enfolding events. It just added depth to events that occurred which was fine by me! I thought it was a bit obvious that the dream invader was the Emperor - glad it wasn't a Prospero Burns style Tzeentchian daemon. So from the story of the cognosynch's we got a further elaboration of what caused the Age of Strife - not just was it the emergence of psykers, it was worsened by a small number of super-psykers who set themselves up as tyrants. The Emperor, before revealing himself as the Emperor, eventually wiped them out. Was briefly thinking the "Golden Eyed Warrior", immune to psykers and who the Emperor couldn't see the thread of, might actually be some form of the old Sensei idea. That woulda been HUGE! So, weird that the cognosynchs all emerged within a short time frame, relatively early in humanity's history as a psychic race... Coincidence? Tzeentch? Xenos? Some early project of the Emperor going awry? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2916353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Does anyone know who scared off Ghota and tore up his junior "Thunder Warrior" copies when he went to collect Roxanne in the Death Church? I am still trying to piece that one together. Roxanne unveiled her third eye and looked at them - a navigators eye kills anyone who looks at it. It was a confusingly written scene, I think because it wasn't meant to be immediately obvious she was a navigator at that point. No no, that was the first time wit Ghota. The second time was with a fully tooled up gang of about 8 and Roxanne confirmed it wasn't her. As for the dream invader being the Emperor; sure I hoped it would be him, but I was worried it might be something lamer. Or the Thousand Son. It was fairly obvious really, but I didn't expect such a hands on experience from the Emperor! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2916361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Oh, sorry, thought we were talking about the first time. The second time it was the daemon that had been in the Angel statue. As I was saying I guess, I don't mind it being the Emperor in the dream, as you say the hands on experience is welcome. I was a bit disappointing tha after saying early on that he couldn't just rip the info out of Kai's head because it needed to be shown to someone else, that didn't seem to happen - hence it felt like there was a twist, revelation foreshadowed that turned out not to happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2916894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Does anyone know who scared off Ghota and tore up his junior "Thunder Warrior" copies when he went to collect Roxanne in the Death Church? I am still trying to piece that one together. Roxanne unveiled her third eye and looked at them - a navigators eye kills anyone who looks at it. It was a confusingly written scene, I think because it wasn't meant to be immediately obvious she was a navigator at that point. No no, that was the first time wit Ghota. The second time was with a fully tooled up gang of about 8 and Roxanne confirmed it wasn't her. As for the dream invader being the Emperor; sure I hoped it would be him, but I was worried it might be something lamer. Or the Thousand Son. It was fairly obvious really, but I didn't expect such a hands on experience from the Emperor! I really enjoyed that. We rarely get dialogue from the All Father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2917005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Ahhh yes, gore splattered angel goes crazy! I wonder why it went dormant again. Anyways! Arik and Ghota might be prime specimens of Thunder Warrior prowess but I do not think that Tagore, Severian and Company were slouches. Tagore the Powerfist whipped a Custodian (albeit one who was deemed "unworthy for front line service) like a dog but Ghota handled him and his men. Arik makes mention of the fact that his skills and level of control have degraded over time and that his prime was far behind him. I think the cognoscynth warlords were just men who were augmented and had towering psyker powers, but those were likely more the by-product of the times. Arik mentions the titanic mountain obliterating duels of pre-Unity warlords; the Warp Storms and interference of the Era likely caused many humans who had dormant psyker abilities to become truly emergent for the first time. Kind of like the Shadowrun return of magic or Rifts. The truly powerful guys who had emerged earlier, like the Emperor, came out of hiding in the background because of the pure volatility of the time in order to wrestle control and be king of the hill for their own ends, altruistic or greedy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2918185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja6fett Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I do not think that Tagore, Severian and Company were slouches. Tagore the Powerfist whipped a Custodian (albeit one who was deemed "unworthy for front line service) like a dog but Ghota handled him and his men. Arik makes mention of the fact that his skills and level of control have degraded over time and that his prime was far behind him. This was my only problem with the book: the de-powering of the Custodes. I feel they are starting to become the punching bags of the HH. "Oh I need to show this traitor is BA, whelp time to kill another Custode." Granted the first one wasn't "front line ready", but even Saturanlia, one of the most senior Custodes left on Terra, bites it later. It just seems frustrating when they get pumped up to be these awesome, better than an Astartes guys then they get punked. I honestly prefer the portrayal from The First heretic, where even though they die, they kill quite a few guys before they get taken down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2918776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Finished it again. It's a nice book IMO but I don't like the way the Custodes were portrayed. They're supposed to be highly skilled combatants and tough as nails. I also still don't like the Thunder Warriors being so strong. I always imagined them to be weaker than real astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2919165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 After having read it, im really satisfied. Overall it was a really strong book, as all McNeils HH books are. The characters were good and all the "important ones" had their moment in the spotlight. And those who didn't get fleshed out to much, simply left the impression, that we haven't seen the last of them. (Severian, Ghota and Arik). And I like how McNeil writes, and not everything is explained. Something is left for speculation, or explored later. That's all fuel for the lovely mystery of this era. The ending made me feel sad, and I just sat, speculating about it all. And that is the characteristics of a really great read! The revalation was really strong, and The Emperor was comfirmed as the ultimate good guy in my eyes. He is a person who has one goal above all else. The peace and continued survival for the human race. Sacrafices must be made, and the hardest choices immaginable must be chosen. As humans are now, the way we are going to go out in the universe, will either be by natural disaster or war (either between humans and humans or against xeno). Either way our doom will be violent and painful. The Emperor is the only human, able to lead humans along a narrow path that leads to an end, not clouded in war or disaster. As he himself says, it's not possible to be all powerful and all knowing at the same time. To lead the human race to "victory", he has to sacrifice his ability to shield them from themselves (in the form of Horus and his legions). And that's probably why the Heresy was allowed to happen. I've seen people talk about how a genius like The Emperor, capable og seeing so far into the future, can not see the Heresy coming and prevent it. The answer is he has, but he simply dosen't have the power to prevent it. He can only try his hardest to win or make it a draw. And people why discuss of X can beat Y? where would you go with that? nothing useful comes from the question: "can an thunder warrior beat an astartes"? Instead one should use that energy to discuss the nature of Thunder Warriors compared to Astartes. That's something you can get an useful discussion out of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2919648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Well said Tyr, another reason why i must get this book! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2919716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I really enjoyed it! It made me feel a bit sad in the end! Mr McNeill is a great writer, indeed its mentioned in the book that Magnus was to be brought back to Earth alive. I agree dude. It was sad at the end of Kai's conversation with the Big E when he's resigned to the fact that he will have to sacrifice himself for the good of humanity. I also thought the way the WE twins ended the crimson path was good and sad aswell. Overall, I enjoyed this. I'm a big fan of McNeil and he did not disapoint. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2920790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hephaesteus Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I loved the book, I posted on another thread with bits of this but now reading this one I realise everyone else beat me to the same points! oops. I agree with the general consensus that it gives great insight into to Emp. I also think it mentions he could 'cognosyth' if he wanted, but tries to let people come to the right decision themselves. You can't learn (as an individual or a species) if you are given the correct decision at every stage withouth having to work through it yourself. cracking read, especially after the halfway mark. one question though. what exactly were the crusader host? i missed it. were they just the collection of the legionaires (from all legion's) on terra or just those from legiones that went to the 'dark side' and so all went on the run? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2922566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Hehe Tyr! I like the neutral and logical stance you are attempting to take but this board runs off comparisons, contrasts and personal opinion of armies, characters, background and tactics. Besides, in the Grim Darkness of the Future there is only War; War has winners, losers, and stalemates but the whole point of the Space Opera setting is to have fictionalized races and factions kicking the everliving crap out of each other. FOREVER. It is nice to try and distance the personal opinion from what is stated in the background but as the posts on this board go to show, 10 people read the same article/book/source will have 10 different opinions and 100 different reasons as to why. And when examining Ghota and Arik the Thunder Warriors versus the Legiones Astartes, well, they kicked the crap out of each other. It is hard NOT to look at their relative strengths and weaknesses when the material only presents two scenes where the Thunder Warriors and Astartes interface with each other and both of those end in combat and one of those combats resulted in direct conflict between the two groups. As far as the nature of the Thunder Warriors go, they are War Machines. All the Emperor's creations we know of are made for the Battlefields of the 30k millennium. Thunder Warriors and Astartes are relatively the same, created for the same purpose, same reasons but why are the Astartes different from Thunder Warriors, especially when it is evident that there is a large difference in power levels between the two groups. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2922640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Just finished it, i didnt enjoy it as much as i've enjoyed other HH novels really :P A couple of questions, What was the Crusader Host and why were they on Terra? Were they jst a load of marines that happened to be visiting when their Primarchs went rogue? Another thing is, what gave Kai's teacher (the one who gave him the visions) the visions of the final battle in the first place? Was it just coincedence that the warp breach she touched gave her those images or was it Magnus? It didn't add much to the HH series as a whole and wasn't strong enough to stand on its own as a good book, just my opinion though. Not the worst of the series though and did give some good information about Terra and how astropaths work, and it was good to see the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2923273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Oddly enough, I got the impression the Crusade wasn't a collection of Marines from Traitor Legions, as there is a moment when Atharva considers which Marines to release from the Crusader Host and only releases certain ones who he deemed most useful, whilst the Hunters remarked the ones released were only the ones from Traitor Legions. This is implying they weren't all from traitor Legions... As for their purpose on earth and why they were imprisoned, and importantly why they were still loyal to the Emperor, I have no idea. Maybe a future novel will explain things better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2923722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I love the implication that the marines would be tool to be discarded as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2923767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I love the implication that the marines would be tool to be discarded as well. It makes sense! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2923780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Yeah I love the little hints in that book. To me it sounded like bitterness. After all, do we really know Thunder Warriors were discarded or betrayed by the Emperor or were they just jealous they weren't able to accompany him on the Great Crusade due to old age deterioration? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2923795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 The implication is what makes it more mysterious. Think about it. If the Emperor planned to get rid of the Space Marines after the galaxy was conquered, then when the heresy happened and Guilliman came in with his reforms that would ensure the survival of the space marines, he essentially would have become their savior. Juicy right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2923840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 The implication is what makes it more mysterious. Think about it. If the Emperor planned to get rid of the Space Marines after the galaxy was conquered, then when the heresy happened and Guilliman came in with his reforms that would ensure the survival of the space marines, he essentially would have become their savior. Juicy right? Oooh, yeah I do like that! Especially since Guilliman was supposed to be the closest to The Emperor's vision, the irony of it makes me want to squeal with barely contained girlish glee! Ahem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/3/#findComment-2923847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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