[Spoilers] The Outcast Dead

[Iron Lord]

In Dan Abnett's Blood Games it mentions that while Custodes tend to be larger and stronger, it would be foolish to bet on the outcome of a fight between an Astartes and a Custodes.

 

So- maybe they're fairly closely matched, going by the phrasing?

[Blood Angel Scout]

Been a few weeks since reading the book, but from what I remember there was no mention of the length of time that the marines had been imprisioned for and leads to posing this speculation/theory as to why the fight with the Custode went the way it did:

 

Tagore in a close confined cell, no doubt already having had some sort of run-in with the guards due to his nature, butcher's nail's filling him with rage for potentially the most-consistant time-span since implantation( as I infer that there would be some form of down-time aspect to the nail's effect or mind-set of the marine i.e. the celebration at slaughering their foe) and one constant guard to focus it upon....

 

Bear in mind that even in this day and age, there is documented evidence of normal people performing extra-ordinary feats of strength, toughness etc due to adrenaline overload(lifting a car alone to save a person underneath type thing), not to mention the abilities of highly trained individuals that can break things with their fists, Shaolin monks as a generic example, then in my view, can't see why it wouldn't be possible for it to happen like it did in the scene.

[xa0s]

I hadda ask. What -IS- a butcher's nail? I saw a reference to it via Tagore. And now on the upcoming audio book by ADB.

 

I must have miss something vital about butcher's nail... I kept thinking it's some kind of nail that was butched into the head of all the World Eaters as well as Angron... and kept on thinking "Naw, that's not it."

 

So help me out?

[dcye]

Butchers Nails are the name of the implant put in the heads of Angron and the World Eaters legion.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I must have miss something vital about butcher's nail... I kept thinking it's some kind of nail that was butched into the head of all the World Eaters as well as Angron... and kept on thinking "Naw, that's not it."

It wouldn't not be out of place at all for Angron's Legion. These guys don't slit their wrists, they cut themselves in half, like real men.

[DarKnight]

I'd be more willing to accept the Tagore fight against the first Custodian if he didn't actually duel an unaugmented human later in the book and only survived due to the fact he was an Astartes, while he was armed! Doesn't completely ruin the book or anything but I considered that a big deal.

[MadDoc]

I'd be more willing to accept the Tagore fight against the first Custodian if he didn't actually duel an unaugmented human later in the book and only survived due to the fact he was an Astartes, while he was armed! Doesn't completely ruin the book or anything but I considered that a big deal.

If you're referring to his fight with

Nagasena, the fight that happened while he was still recovering from their crash & the injuries he'd suffered fighting Babu's men, and which, even then, he only lost because Golovko/Golovka plasma gunned him

, then I have to question what exactly the problem is? :lol:

[DarKnight]

I'd be more willing to accept the Tagore fight against the first Custodian if he didn't actually duel an unaugmented human later in the book and only survived due to the fact he was an Astartes, while he was armed! Doesn't completely ruin the book or anything but I considered that a big deal.

If you're referring to his fight with

Nagasena, the fight that happened while he was still recovering from their crash & the injuries he'd suffered fighting Babu's men, and which, even then, he only lost because Golovko/Golovka plasma gunned him

, then I have to question what exactly the problem is? :huh:

It seems like we are getting into the whole "stats" conversation which we probably dont want to get into but yes I have a problem with an Astartes injured or not who is augmented with butchers nails at that even bothering to duel with an unaugmented human, but less allowing him to land such a good blow. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

[MadDoc]

It seems like we are getting into the whole "stats" conversation which we probably dont want to get into but yes I have a problem with an Astartes injured or not who is augmented with butchers nails at that even bothering to duel with an unaugmented human, but less allowing him to land such a good blow. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

I think you might be underestimating how good

Nagasena

actually is (even if he is only an unaugmented human), and I have no idea what you mean by "allowing him to land such a good blow", you seem to be under the impression that he had some choice in the matter.

 

But you're right, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[DarKnight]

It seems like we are getting into the whole "stats" conversation which we probably dont want to get into but yes I have a problem with an Astartes injured or not who is augmented with butchers nails at that even bothering to duel with an unaugmented human, but less allowing him to land such a good blow. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

I think you might be underestimating how good

Nagasena

actually is (even if he is only an unaugmented human), and I have no idea what you mean by "allowing him to land such a good blow", you seem to be under the impression that he had some choice in the matter.

 

But you're right, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I may be unestimating Nagasena but in my opinion, unless its some sore of augmented human, calidus assassin etc. regular humans cant hang in a fight with Astartes. If he was well enough to have nagasena comment on the skill of his bladework then i think just strength and speed etc would still overcome a human being. But im gald we could disagree without hard feelings. As far as the rest of the book, how do you guys think the Heresy changes if somehow the Outcast are able to get Kai off of Terra and into the clutches of Horus Lupercal & Horus is able to break the truth out of his head and realizes that he is destined to lose and die in the attempt & there is nothing he can change about it. Does he continues with his rebellion in an attempt to deny fate? Runs away to the Eye? What?

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Dude, the Warrior who Bears the Truth was the TRUTH. He was the prime psi-hunter for the Black Ships. The Psihunter of all Psihunters, and hence, prolly one of the baddest men around. The Truth-bearer had an Assassin (Imperial Assassin in 40k terms, not some flunky) clade as his crony and it wasn't like he won the fight against Sgt. Slaughter. Truth-bearer said he fought Marines in practice cages many times. Fail. He failed again. And as Mad Doc aptly put,

plasma guns generally kill everything

so what is the problem here? (Abnett would have used a melta and ADB a CCW but that is just a matter of style :huh: )

 

Horus is a pawn of the Four Powers by this time. He might not believe that he is not in control of his fate but his fate was sealed the minute he turned his back on his family and species. It would not matter what is known or unknown, the outcome is the truth and final. How Imperial and Chaotic forces deal with the events on the sidelines will be most important on whether or not the final sacrifices are worth the gain. It is why the Emperor won a great coup

with the suicide of Kai

; He maintained control of the information and kept it from the hands of the Four Powers and now has an edge when it comes to how the surrounding events will shape the future. He realized the sacrifice that must be made and now sets to craft the best possible outcome for his species. Ruthless, Heroic, Matryrdom, blah blah blah, the Father is the sum of his Sons and their stories are just parts of His whole, victories and failures. Keep it up BL guys!

 

edit: Knowledge is Power; guard it well.

[Brother-Kezek]

Just finished reading this book. It took only a day and a half. I loved every part of it. And it makes sense to me that Thunder Warriors would be stronger than Marines. They had to fight against pyskers that had the power of the warp at their command. So I think its safe to say, they may have come across a few demons and other things that modern Marines have no knowledge of. And since The Emperor wanted to hide the nature of the warp from humanity, the Thunder Warriors had to be discarded along with the part of human history.

[Watch-commander Albus]

Just finished reading this book. It took only a day and a half. I loved every part of it. And it makes sense to me that Thunder Warriors would be stronger than Marines. They had to fight against pyskers that had the power of the warp at their command. So I think its safe to say, they may have come across a few demons and other things that modern Marines have no knowledge of. And since The Emperor wanted to hide the nature of the warp from humanity, the Thunder Warriors had to be discarded along with the part of human history.

 

I finished it this weekend. Liked every bit of it too. The fight between Tagore and the Custodian did not bother me at all. Tagore was really like a caged animal in those scenes, clawing his way to freedom, probably pumped up to the limit with adrenaline.

 

I liked the regicide parts the most, gave a great insight into the Emperor. Next to the Son of Horus, I wonder if Anik Taranis would make a return in the series? The epilogue clearly showed that he still is around.

 

What did you guys think of the timeline? The 'Magnus' incident came well after the news of the betrayal at Isstvan. It makes sense in the current series, but it kind of retcons the old fluff from Collected Visions, where Horus "influences" Leman Russ to exterminate the Thousand Sons instead of just arresting Magnus...

[Piousservant]

What did you guys think of the timeline? The 'Magnus' incident came well after the news of the betrayal at Isstvan. It makes sense in the current series, but it kind of retcons the old fluff from Collected Visions, where Horus "influences" Leman Russ to exterminate the Thousand Sons instead of just arresting Magnus...

 

I'm just ignoring that bit of Outcast Dead to be honest.

 

Different points of view is fine, and I don't have a problem with retconning the old background in the HH series (in general) but retconning the story established in what, 4 books in the same series already? That really, really has annoyed me.

 

It was irritating with the Legion sizes, but that's a statistic and you can overlook the extra/missing "0" but to derail a major plot timeline like that... Seriously think BL need to do better with things like that. It either ruins that book or it ruins all the preceeding ones in the series, and why? There's no sensible reason to change it either. I can only assume it was a cock up and so I'm ignoring it.

[Midwest]

Just finished the book this weekend, still mixed but wanting to like it. I think I will if there's a 'sequel' or some follow-up to these characters/concepts. If not, I think this ends up lacking a bit. Regardless, really disappointed in the quality of editing and printing - lots of grammar mistakes, name misspellings, and offset print.

 

Also, just me, or is there a gaping issue with the timing between Magnus' contacting the Emperor and Istvaan? Magnus contacts him to warn of Horus' impending betrayal at Istvaan IIRC, yet it apparantly already happened by the time he attempts contact in TOD. To me it goes beyond a mere retcon of who sent Russ to do what to Magnus - if Istvaan is already known (and Horus' betrayal in general), what exactly is Magnus contacting the Emperor about to begin with?

 

Regarding the 'truth' Kai finds out...I couldn't help but wonder if this was another Chaos trick. IE, sometimes the only way to win is to not lose...by tricking your opponent into thinking they're the ones that are gonna lose, so they instead play for the tie thinking it's their only option. IE Chaos realizes the Emperor will win, so they plant a seed of doubt in the hopes of tricking the Emperor into abandoning any attempt to win (no chance) for the hope of at least 'not losing' by going for the stalemate. On a personal level, I thought the 'reveal' of the TW culling was more interesting than 'knowing the outcome' - I would have preferred the culling to have been the true secret Kai uncovered - imagine Dhakal's argument/suspicion that the same fate awaits the primarchs (and possibly all Astartes) getting back to the legions (both sides)!

 

Regarding the Thunder Warriors as tools, the sense I got is that something about them doesn't give well to assembly-lining - I don't think TOD mentions this, so I don't know exactly where this comes from, but my impression is that TW are relatively 'custom' (or bespoke or simply hand-) made, whereas the process for Astartes can be done on relatively large scales. So while the TW process is good enough for Terra, a different one was necessary to supply a galaxy-wide army of super soldiers.

 

Regardless, the book's argument seems to be that the TW are terminated (culled) in part because Unity needs to be ID'd solely with the Emperor, and in part the fear that after Unity these various legions/armies/whatevers would remain a threat of devolving back into anarchy. The novel points out how every pre-Unity warlord is exterminated, and also indicates that the battles during Unification have already become 'mythic' in the sense that Terrans already see them as half-fabricated or almost fantasy in their reputed scale and nature. My gut feeling is that the Emperor's plan being hinted here is that he worked to eliminate any group that could hold out to a pre-Unity view of Terra or humanity. Hence the severity of compliance as we've already seen, hence why people/units/etc that could live centuries past Unity were executed or 'culled' (like the TW) while army regiments (even those that are gene-enhanced) are allowed to retain their names and histories - because the individual soldiers and commanders aren't going to live long enough to sustain a genuine pre-Unity identity.

 

It's the equivalent, IMO, to a modern military unit tracing its history back to WW2, or WWI, or to a civil war or even previous incarnations of its nation-state - by this point it's a title, with no threat behind it (i.e. an Austrian military unit with a history back to the Dual Monarchy isn't going to invade Hungary on its own, nor is a US unit with Union history likely torching Atlanta anytime soon. Even with the apparent built-in genetic 'killswitch', Dhakal and Ghota prove that TW can individually live long enough that a group or unit of TW (ie a regiment, warband, company, chapter, legion, host, horde, whatever) could have enough individuals with pre-Unity beliefs/experiences/knowledge that if they started disagreeing with the Emperor or the new Imperium, they could cause trouble (which their enhanced forms would only help at).

 

Keep in mind a side-theme of TOD (IMO) is that the Imperium is already engaging in questionable practices, or at least tolerances. This Imperium of "truth and light" already has a massive shanty hive of neglect, crime, and poverty right on the outskirts of the Emperor's own palace (I can't decide if a TW on the lam starting a criminal gang/org in the shadow of the Emperor hisself is either way over the top or an intentional comment on how removed the Emperor and his ideals already are). It lives off of some horrific practices, particularly the brutal treatment and consumption of psykers (everything from the need to remove eyes to the hollow mountain fate - stuff may be necessary, but doesn't really conjure up a new and friendly universe). There's one disapproving throwaway comment about the Imperium's use of assassins. The portrayl of the Custodes throughout the books (and enforced in TOD) underlines that there is already a distinction between "Emperor" and "Imperium" - the Custodes do not concern themselves with what's right for the Imperium, only what serves their responsibilities to protect the Emperor.

 

And of course the Outcast Dead themselves exist because the Imperium/Emperor was willing to round up everyone on the basis of possible taint rather than only those who had actually turned traitor.

 

Previous HH stories, like The Last Church and the debates over the 'true' nature of the Warp, as well as religion and sorcery, I think indicate that the Emperor's grand philosophy/guiding principle is that ignorance is bliss. The theme seems to be that humanity keeps proving it can't be trusted with certain knowledge. IE, it's not enough to have an 'atheist' Imperium - 'religious' knowledge needs to be wiped away from the histories. It's not enough to allow regulated or limited 'sorcery' - it has to be fully banned. (and likely all psykery could have been banned if it's true that the Emperor was ultimately hoping for humanity to have its own Chaos-free webway for travel and communication). And it's not enough to 're-educate' pre-Unity elements, even if they're for the Imperium.

 

He apparently thought it best to ensure that no 'super' soldiers of pre-Unity survived a united Terra. And more than likely, given the comment Dhakal makes about the Primarchs, the Emperor may have similarly planned for the Primarchs (with or without the Astartes) to not survive into a unified galaxy.

 

My own speculation - even if there's no HH, wouldn't the 'modern' Imperium still likely have happened? The Emperor's beliefs/actions keep to seem indicating that a 'dynamic' humanity is too dangerous, because it keeps leading to paths like religion, sorcery, or inquiry into the warp - all things that lead to knowledge of Chaos. It seems like the true horror of the 'vision' Kai and Gregoras learn is that the ideals being fought for cannot be kept. That maybe the Emperor promoted the 'Imperial Truth' only because it was a contrast with the pre-Unity warlords and societies that allowed him to gain followers and overthrow the rest, and similarly allowed Terra-based humanity to destroy other human civilizations to absorb everything into this new 'Imperial' reality, but something that could/would be dropped once long-term survival dictated a more stagnant, ignorant civilization to shield humanity from Chaos.

[Tezzy]

Arguments about 'power levels' is fruitless remember? Just like in the Primarch vs Primarch thread.

 

My two cents was that the Thunder Warriors were a blunt club of a weapon. A battering ram army to topple the tyrants of Terra (hence the bulk/strength and being psyker resistant) but made with nothing beyond that in mind. The Primarchs were 20 demi-Gods made in the vision of the Emperor himself to conquer the Galaxy for humanity. The Space Marines were purpose-bred genetic brilliance, made in the image of their respective demi-God 'father' just as they were to the Emperor. Created to dominate the other would-be masters of the cosmos (the Orks, the Eldar, the Tyranids) and be virtually unbeatable. A sword compared to the blunt club. Arik and Ghota just happened to be hardy enough to survive past unification.

 

Arik and Ghota were a match for the Outcast Dead, a rabble of marines with varying skill from different legions out of their armour with scavenged weapons. The Outcast dead were a match for two Custodes left on Terra while the rest were at Prospero/Webway. It's all circumstance. I'm sure Loken and Torgaddon as a team would make a mockery of the two Thunder Warriors just as Aquillion would make sport of most if not all of the Outcast Dead. Again, it all comes down to story circumstance.

[Son of Rawl]

Then again Arik also mentions he learned quite a bit from the Emperor in regards to gene manipulation, who knows how much he had enchanced himself and Ghota

[MadDoc]

Then again Arik also mentions he learned quite a bit from the Emperor in regards to gene manipulation, who knows how much he had enchanced himself and Ghota

Based on what he says in the book, not alot (if at all). From what he says, all he has managed to achieve using the knowledge he managed to learn from the big E

is to prolong their lives, i.e. stop them dying much sooner

.

 

Edit - If he'd learned that much, then

how come his gangers are such poor copies of Ghota and himself? That suggests he didn't even know enough to be able to make fully working Thunder Warriors, let alone enhance existing ones

.

[Son of Rawl]

Thats the thing we do not know how much he did learn.

 

 

He did learn enough to understand, and replicate a geneseed though. That clearly shows how much he may have learned

 

[Midwest]

Regarding what Dhakal learned:

 

 

Has he been trying to make Thunder Warriors, tho'? My impression was that he was only concerned with prolonging/rejuvenating himself and Ghota, not recreating the Thunder Warriors or his own army of Astartes/quasi-Astartes. IE had he tried doing anything beyond the level of the failed organ that we see at one point, which is still in the lab? I didn't get the impression he ever tried anything TW/AA-specific to his gangers - I guess I assumed they were just recipients of whatever the 'normal' gene-sculpting is in the 31st millennium.

 

[Legionator]

What did you guys think of the timeline? The 'Magnus' incident came well after the news of the betrayal at Isstvan. It makes sense in the current series, but it kind of retcons the old fluff from Collected Visions, where Horus "influences" Leman Russ to exterminate the Thousand Sons instead of just arresting Magnus...

 

It bothered me as well. According to Fulgrim novel, at the and of the dropsite massacre, Magnus joined the traitors. Also it didn't make any sense, why did Magnus attempt to warn the Emperor about Horus when Horus' treachery was obvious to Imperium?

[MadDoc]

Regarding what Dhakal learned:

 

 

Has he been trying to make Thunder Warriors, tho'? My impression was that he was only concerned with prolonging/rejuvenating himself and Ghota, not recreating the Thunder Warriors or his own army of Astartes/quasi-Astartes. IE had he tried doing anything beyond the level of the failed organ that we see at one point, which is still in the lab? I didn't get the impression he ever tried anything TW/AA-specific to his gangers - I guess I assumed they were just recipients of whatever the 'normal' gene-sculpting is in the 31st millennium.

Except that...

 

The gangers augmentations are recognised as bearing the hallmarks of LA/TW style augmentation by both Nagasena and (grudgingly) Saturnalia. Although noted as only partially replicating some of its techniques/technologies, the resemblance is strong enough for Nagasena to draw the conclusion. There is also Artharva's initial impressions of the gangers where he notes they seem to be a poor/haphazard copy of LA/TW style augmentation (contrasted to Ghota's augmentations being the work of a genius (The big E and his boffins)). That suggests to me that he was trying (not entirely successfully) to augment his gangers along similar lines to himself and Ghota.

 

[Midwest]

Except that...

 

The gangers augmentations are recognised as bearing the hallmarks of LA/TW style augmentation by both Nagasena and (grudgingly) Saturnalia. Although noted as only partially replicating some of its techniques/technologies, the resemblance is strong enough for Nagasena to draw the conclusion. There is also Artharva's initial impressions of the gangers where he notes they seem to be a poor/haphazard copy of LA/TW style augmentation (contrasted to Ghota's augmentations being the work of a genius (The big E and his boffins)). That suggests to me that he was trying (not entirely successfully) to augment his gangers along similar lines to himself and Ghota.

True...

 

 

...but I guess to me it seemed like his gangers had mostly just 'standard' gene enhancements, with maybe a few of the processes that Dhakal learned that he was able to master, rather than actual attempts to replicate the TW process completely.

 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

By the way, did anybody find it amusing when the World Eater sergeant tried to keep/have a conversation with the small boy at the church? To me it kinda broke the 4th barrier since I found it completely weird that a Space Marine, let alone a World Eater who only knows fighting and killing was trying to have a conversation with a boy (I say it breaks the 4th barrier because he himself [The World Eater sergeant] finds it completely weird trying to have small talk, something we to will find weird and awkward lol)...Maybe the authors are fixing and placing the World Eaters in a new light to get them ready for the new novel Butchers Nail?

I loved this part of the book. I kinda hope the kid becomes a Astartes. The World Eater is a fish out of water. It might seem weird for him to act that way but a few pages before this happend the 1k son used his powers on him to clam him down. He might have been under the thrall still.

 

Did anyone else notice the reference to Alpharius/Omegon post istvaan V in the psychic message:

 

"Twins conjoined by a single soul, tugging in different directions." (page 161)

 

could it be possible that one brother is loyal, and the other traitor?

This also caught my eye. Yet more fuel to the Loyal Alpha Legion fire.

 

Also, just me, or is there a gaping issue with the timing between Magnus' contacting the Emperor and Istvaan? Magnus contacts him to warn of Horus' impending betrayal at Istvaan IIRC, yet it apparantly already happened by the time he attempts contact in TOD. To me it goes beyond a mere retcon of who sent Russ to do what to Magnus - if Istvaan is already known (and Horus' betrayal in general), what exactly is Magnus contacting the Emperor about to begin with?

 

I was thinking the same thing here. the time line as i understand it...

 

False Gods, Horus recovers from his wounds from the daemon blade he allows Erebus to lead him to the Chaos Gods in a dream. Magnus crashes the party and try's to bring Horus back to the good side. He fails and Horus falls. Horus makes his plan to rebel and chooses Istvaaan as his jump off point.

 

Thousand Sons, Magnus upon failing to convince Horus sends his message to the Emperor. I did not think he drug his feet. He might have taken a few days or weeks to prepare i suppose.

 

Galaxy in Flames, Horus purges the Loyalists on Istvaan III. A war that takes like 7 months. After he moves to Istvaan V were he waits for the Emperors Response.

 

Flight of the Eisenstein, Garro escapes the Istvaan system and returns to Terra to bring word of the events on Istvaan III. A trip that takes some weeks?

 

The Outcast Dead, Magnus' message finally reaches the Emperor well after the Loyal strike force is crushed at the Dropsite Massacre.

 

I don't get it. Did Tzeentch pull a fast one on Magnus and slow down his message by 8 + months?

 

 

 

I just finished the book and found some interesting parts not yet talked about here.

 

1) I loved the two shout outs to Loken and Skraal. The reference to Skraal dose not really move the story but it is nice for the Battle for the Abyss to get some love with all the hate directed its way. The Loken reference is not by name but the warrior of the new moon who was there the day Horus killed the Emperor cant be anyone else.

 

2) The book sheds some light on Dorn's choice to send the Night Lords to Istvaan V. Yet more evidence that Dorn was keeping secrets that ended in helping Horus.

[Captain Idaho]

By the way, did anybody find it amusing when the World Eater sergeant tried to keep/have a conversation with the small boy at the church? To me it kinda broke the 4th barrier since I found it completely weird that a Space Marine, let alone a World Eater who only knows fighting and killing was trying to have a conversation with a boy (I say it breaks the 4th barrier because he himself [The World Eater sergeant] finds it completely weird trying to have small talk, something we to will find weird and awkward lol)...Maybe the authors are fixing and placing the World Eaters in a new light to get them ready for the new novel Butchers Nail?

I loved this part of the book. I kinda hope the kid becomes a Astartes. The World Eater is a fish out of water. It might seem weird for him to act that way but a few pages before this happend the 1k son used his powers on him to clam him down. He might have been under the thrall still.

 

Sort your quote out mate, since I certainly didn't sat that! ;) :lol: