atin Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I just finished the book and found some interesting parts not yet talked about here. 1) I loved the two shout outs to Loken and Skraal. The reference to Skraal dose not really move the story but it is nice for the Battle for the Abyss to get some love with all the hate directed its way. The Loken reference is not by name but the warrior of the new moon who was there the day Horus killed the Emperor cant be anyone else. 2) The book sheds some light on Dorn's choice to send the Night Lords to Istvaan V. Yet more evidence that Dorn was keeping secrets that ended in helping Horus. dont forget page 458 what are you afraid of, wonders nagasena. What are you really afraid of? its the same sentence from part ?? from the lighting tower.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2941459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingo Pech Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I just finished the book and found some interesting parts not yet talked about here. 1) I loved the two shout outs to Loken and Skraal. The reference to Skraal dose not really move the story but it is nice for the Battle for the Abyss to get some love with all the hate directed its way. The Loken reference is not by name but the warrior of the new moon who was there the day Horus killed the Emperor cant be anyone else. 2) The book sheds some light on Dorn's choice to send the Night Lords to Istvaan V. Yet more evidence that Dorn was keeping secrets that ended in helping Horus. Could you give me a hint regarding the Night Lords-scene? Can´t remember this one. Which page? :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2945153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I just finished the book and found some interesting parts not yet talked about here. 1) I loved the two shout outs to Loken and Skraal. The reference to Skraal dose not really move the story but it is nice for the Battle for the Abyss to get some love with all the hate directed its way. The Loken reference is not by name but the warrior of the new moon who was there the day Horus killed the Emperor cant be anyone else. 2) The book sheds some light on Dorn's choice to send the Night Lords to Istvaan V. Yet more evidence that Dorn was keeping secrets that ended in helping Horus. Could you give me a hint regarding the Night Lords-scene? Can´t remember this one. Which page? :lol: pg 73 "The primarch of the VIII Legion," said Sarashina. ...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2945169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingo Pech Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 "The primarch of the VIII Legion," said Sarashina....... Thx! This scene was totally buried in oblivion... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2945736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Thing I didnt get at the end was how they got hold of the organ they needed to stay alive..... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2947856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NemFX Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Okay, might have been said before, but I get the impression that the Emperor either doesn't know, or doesn't care, that any Thunder Warriors survived. That said, I think that it would have been a bad idea to have had them train the marines. They'd probably be resentful of having to train their replacements, which would undermine things like crazy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2947960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashur Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 One of the best HH books in my opinion. Perhaps not as good as others as a standalone book, but an excellent way to unite events from different books around a terran perception. I specially enjoyed the small glimpses at WE traditions about fighting slavers and breaking their chains. Seeing them as freedom fighters of a sort makes their corruption all the more painful. Taranis is just brutal. I hope we will get more of him in the future. After all, the man is a living legend even by Astartes standart. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2949605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sponsra Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 I was thinking the same thing here. the time line as i understand it... False Gods, Horus recovers from his wounds from the daemon blade he allows Erebus to lead him to the Chaos Gods in a dream. Magnus crashes the party and try's to bring Horus back to the good side. He fails and Horus falls. Horus makes his plan to rebel and chooses Istvaaan as his jump off point. Thousand Sons, Magnus upon failing to convince Horus sends his message to the Emperor. I did not think he drug his feet. He might have taken a few days or weeks to prepare i suppose. Galaxy in Flames, Horus purges the Loyalists on Istvaan III. A war that takes like 7 months. After he moves to Istvaan V were he waits for the Emperors Response. Flight of the Eisenstein, Garro escapes the Istvaan system and returns to Terra to bring word of the events on Istvaan III. A trip that takes some weeks? The Outcast Dead, Magnus' message finally reaches the Emperor well after the Loyal strike force is crushed at the Dropsite Massacre. I don't get it. Did Tzeentch pull a fast one on Magnus and slow down his message by 8 + months? Benn thinking about this while reading. Is it stated in A thousand sons how much time passes between Nikea and Magnus going trying to warn the Emp? Maybe Magnus was hanging out on prospero being all hesitant about wether trying to reach terra or not? And while he was cranky over Nikea and trying to decide what to do with his "warning" the whole Isstvan ;) goes down (and Magnus doesn't know). And when he finally gets to terra its old news... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2951822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Main problem with that is, after Magnus warns the Emperor, according to False Gods, Horus contacts Russ: p405: "But what of Magnus?" asked Maloghurst urgently. "What happens when Leman Russ returns him to Terra?" Horus smiled. "Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was ... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort." Maloghurst returned Horus's smile. "Magnus will not leave Prospero alive." "No," agreed Horus. "He will not." And since False Gods was also written by McNeill- The Outcast Dead is distinctly problematic in this case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2951827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Thing I didnt get at the end was how they got hold of the organ they needed to stay alive..... :( Anyone?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2951885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 The Lightning Warrior extracted the geneseed of the fallen Outcast Dead and presumably used it to construct that organ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2951988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syagrius Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 I woke up in the middle of the night and a thought struck me, so I checked the details and I was right. In Mechanicum (also written by McNeill), some of the main characters belong to the Knights of Taranis and their symbol is a lightning bolt encircled by a wheel. I can't help but wonder if there's some kind of connection between them and Arik Taranis, the Thunder Lord, even if they were simply named after him. I don't know if anyone's noticed or commented on this already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2952413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I woke up in the middle of the night and a thought struck me, so I checked the details and I was right. In Mechanicum (also written by McNeill), some of the main characters belong to the Knights of Taranis and their symbol is a lightning bolt encircled by a wheel. I can't help but wonder if there's some kind of connection between them and Arik Taranis, the Thunder Lord, even if they were simply named after him. I don't know if anyone's noticed or commented on this already. This is a catch. Kudos! If you have a FB profile fella, like/join Graham's page Fortress of Herra and ask him. Be interesting to know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2952711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Very good spot indeed! I wonder how large the effect Taranis will have on the Horus Heresy on-going. I bet there are ripples that will likely be important when the finale begins on Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2952736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I woke up in the middle of the night and a thought struck me, so I checked the details and I was right. In Mechanicum (also written by McNeill), some of the main characters belong to the Knights of Taranis and their symbol is a lightning bolt encircled by a wheel. I can't help but wonder if there's some kind of connection between them and Arik Taranis, the Thunder Lord, even if they were simply named after him. I don't know if anyone's noticed or commented on this already. Possibly, though it must be remembered that Arik Taranis is a given name, and means Lightning Bearer/Warrior (cant remember which at this moment.) The Lightning Bolt was the Emperor's Pre-Unity and Early Unity symbol, with the symbology being used by those who fought in his name. It is more likely their link is more due to their shared place in the Imperium, rather than being linked to Arik Taranis the character. That being said, I make no claims to be a pocket Nostradamus. We shall wait and see ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2953070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Possibly, though it must be remembered that Arik Taranis is a given name, and means Lightning Bearer/Warrior (cant remember which at this moment.) I don't think that's the literal meaning of his name - he was called "Lightning Bearer" only after his death, in honor of him planting the Emperor's lightning standard after the final battle was won. In life, he was called the Throne-Slayer and a few other names. Taranis is a Celtic lightning god, and like you said the name isn't Arik's birth-name either, but given to him after he became a Thunder Warrior, so it's quite possible the Knights of Taranis are referencing a similar bigger myth that the Emperor was using at the time, rather than a direct link. Tho' my money is on them at least being directly named after him, even if they aren't directly connected to him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2954269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Possibly, though it must be remembered that Arik Taranis is a given name, and means Lightning Bearer/Warrior (cant remember which at this moment.) I don't think that's the literal meaning of his name - he was called "Lightning Bearer" only after his death, in honor of him planting the Emperor's lightning standard after the final battle was won. In life, he was called the Throne-Slayer and a few other names. Taranis is a Celtic lightning god, and like you said the name isn't Arik's birth-name either, but given to him after he became a Thunder Warrior, so it's quite possible the Knights of Taranis are referencing a similar bigger myth that the Emperor was using at the time, rather than a direct link. Tho' my money is on them at least being directly named after him, even if they aren't directly connected to him. Ah, here I thought it actually meant that. Ah well. Nonetheless, I doubt the Knights have much to do with Arik Taranis, given that they are a Mars Mechanicum Knight group predating Unity, if memory serves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2954613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazabi24 Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Main problem with that is, after Magnus warns the Emperor, according to False Gods, Horus contacts Russ: p405: "But what of Magnus?" asked Maloghurst urgently. "What happens when Leman Russ returns him to Terra?" Horus smiled. "Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was ... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort." Maloghurst returned Horus's smile. "Magnus will not leave Prospero alive." "No," agreed Horus. "He will not." And since False Gods was also written by McNeill- The Outcast Dead is distinctly problematic in this case. I'm guessing that Tzeench threw Magnus's message forward in time while it was transit,, making the warning useless, and giving the Emperor more reason to be pissed off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2954631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 I'm guessing that Tzeench threw Magnus's message forward in time while it was transit,, making the warning useless, and giving the Emperor more reason to be pissed off. Nice idea- but if Magnus's message did not arrive (and thus, the Wolves were not dispatched) till after Istvaan V, how come, before the massacre on Istvaan III took place, in Galaxy in Flames, Magnus is fleeing from the Wolves? p200-201 of Galaxy In Flames, before Horus launches the virus bombs: Horus looked up as Erebus approached. "First chaplain," said Horus sternly. "Matters are delicate. Do not disturb me needlessly." "There is news from Prospero," said Erebus, unperturbed. The shadow whisperers clung to him, darting around his feet and the crozius he wore at his waist. "Magnus?" asked Horus, suddenly interested. "He lives yet," said Erebus, "but not for the lack of effort on the part of the Wolves of Fenris." "Magnus lives," snarled Horus. "Then he may yet be a danger." "No," assured Erebus "The spires of Prospero have fallen and the warp echoes with the powerful sorcery Magnus used to save his warriors and escape." "Always sorcery," said Horus. "Where did he escape to?" "I do not know yet," said Erebus, "but wherever he goes, the Emperor's dogs will hunt him down." "And he will either join us or die alone in the wilderness," said Horus thoughtfully. "To think that so much depends on the personalities of so few. Magnus was nearly my greatest enemy, perhaps as dangerous as the Emperor himself. Now he has no choice but to follow us until the very end. If Fulgrim brings Ferrus Manus into the fold then we have as good as won." For The Outcast Dead's events to be true as well as the events in the previous books, somehow Leman Russ would have to travel back in time after the Istvaan V ambush, on the way to Prospero, and arrive at Prospero shortly before the virus bombing of Istvaan III. Then he'd need to receive a message from Horus, and listen to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2954696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Do we know for sure when Horus contacted Russ? The quoted bit in this thread certainly implies he does so after Russ is dispatched, and is directly about his mission. But is it possible (with some massaging?) that Horus isn't referencing a direct talk concerning Russ' mission, but simply that he had been planting the seeds for some time - knowing/assuming that Magnus would try something foolhardy, and that if he did it would be Russ sent to punish him - so that once Russ indeed got the mission, his mindset would already be influenced by Horus' past prodding to take it upon himself to destroy Magnus instead of ensuring him be returned to Terra alive? In other words, when he answers Mal, instead of reading it as "When I heard of Russ' mission I rang him up and talked some trash on Magnus, he's good as dead" could it be read more as "I've been badmouthing Magnus to Russ for so long, now that the Emperor has given Russ the chance, Russ will be unable to resist himself once he gets to Prospero, he will slaughter the Thousand Sons and kill Magnus." Granted, I think that's retconning the clear intent of the aforementioned passage, but it would be a way to try and make everything work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2954952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Still means there would be time travel- but that's not unheard of in 40K, with ships arriving before they left on a few occasions. Most notably with an Ork Warboss attacking himself so he could have two of his favourite gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2956420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sponsra Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Has this time-line issue been adressed by any of the BL-authors? or even mcNeill himslef. Would be nice to hear their thoughts on the matter... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2956430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Has this time-line issue been adressed by any of the BL-authors? or even mcNeill himslef. Would be nice to hear their thoughts on the matter... Only thing I've seen is a comment by ADB somewhere to the effect that the Warp means timelines in the 40k-verse aren't always neat and clean. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2956851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retributis Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Yes but there's not being neat and there's just making no sense in the order stated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2957378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Yes but there's not being neat and there's just making no sense in the order stated. Oh, I'm with you 100%. I guess I'm assuming that a future book will resolve the issue somehow, presumably using the Warp as the basis for how it all works out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/6/#findComment-2957393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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