KhorneOnACob Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Despite the messed up timeline regarding Magnus coming to Terra and The Istvaan 5 massacre and the terrible spelling/grammar at points, I enjoyed this book. It's about time we found out a bit more about the Astropaths and Navigators, not to mention the Thunder Warriors! Yagasena was probably my favorite character, and I hope to see him and the Luna Wolf in a short story in the next anthology (most likely including Taranis and Ghota as well). Does anyone have any idea what The Crusader Host were doing on Terra in the first place and why they were put in the prison? I don't think they were put in there because they were from traitor Legions, as it states that the ones who escaped happened to be from the traitor Legions, which suggests there were probably loyal Legion marines there too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2960057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Despite the messed up timeline regarding Magnus coming to Terra and The Istvaan 5 massacre and the terrible spelling/grammar at points, I enjoyed this book.It's about time we found out a bit more about the Astropaths and Navigators, not to mention the Thunder Warriors! Yagasena was probably my favorite character, and I hope to see him and the Luna Wolf in a short story in the next anthology (most likely including Taranis and Ghota as well). Does anyone have any idea what The Crusader Host were doing on Terra in the first place and why they were put in the prison? I don't think they were put in there because they were from traitor Legions, as it states that the ones who escaped happened to be from the traitor Legions, which suggests there were probably loyal Legion marines there too. About 3/4s of the way through now but I'm sure it mentioned when they were introduced that one of the crusader host was a traitor and the rest were being held under suspicion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2960515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 All of the Crusader Host were from Traitor Legions except for Atharva, the Thousand Son (who hadn’t turned against the Emperor at that time). I like to think that he was banged up with them because he may have continued to use sorcerous powers despite the prohibitions after the Council of Nikaea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2960694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJORNin83 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Just finished this up today, only took me 5 days while at work. I am SOOO glad I didn't let the timeline issue keep me from reading it, I would have missed out on one of the better books in the series. Definitely at least 8/10 stars. Love the insight of the Thunder Warriors, they sound MASSIVE compared to SMs and even Primarchs. Kinda surprised about the Petitionors City, doesn't sound like something the Emperor would let happen Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2960863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Think Prospero burns & Nemesis touch on that issue as well. For all that the imperiums propaganda machine pumps out the idea of the paradise that is unity is a false one. I do hope later on in the series they elaborate more on why the Emperor chose to start the great crusade without fully sorting Terra out first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2960915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 All of the Crusader Host were from Traitor Legions except for Atharva, the Thousand Son (who hadn’t turned against the Emperor at that time). I like to think that he was banged up with them because he may have continued to use sorcerous powers despite the prohibitions after the Council of Nikaea. I believe there is a moment when it is noted by the hunters the Crusader Host freed by Artharva were all from Traitor Legions, implying there were others who weren't. If this is the case, considering Artharva's knowledge of the Heresy and his intention to take his captive to Horus, it is likely his loyalties were not to The Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2960936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 All of the Crusader Host were from Traitor Legions except for Atharva, the Thousand Son (who hadn’t turned against the Emperor at that time). I like to think that he was banged up with them because he may have continued to use sorcerous powers despite the prohibitions after the Council of Nikaea. I believe there is a moment when it is noted by the hunters the Crusader Host freed by Artharva were all from Traitor Legions, implying there were others who weren't. If this is the case, considering Artharva's knowledge of the Heresy and his intention to take his captive to Horus, it is likely his loyalties were not to The Emperor. totally his plans do not suPport his suggestion he wants help the emperor.but some words earlier seem to. maybe he just tells the traitors what he needs them to hear Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2960964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Think Prospero burns & Nemesis touch on that issue as well. For all that the imperiums propaganda machine pumps out the idea of the paradise that is unity is a false one. I do hope later on in the series they elaborate more on why the Emperor chose to start the great crusade without fully sorting Terra out first. Perhaps he did and things got out of hand when he expanded in the galaxy? To start off with he actually did the Crusades with his creations, so perhaps those he left in charge let things get out of hand back on Terra? Uprisings, etc. Then when the Emperor returned he was too busy with the Webway to care? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2960967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 All of the Crusader Host were from Traitor Legions except for Atharva, the Thousand Son (who hadn’t turned against the Emperor at that time). I like to think that he was banged up with them because he may have continued to use sorcerous powers despite the prohibitions after the Council of Nikaea. There doesn't seem to be any clear hints in the book: 1. At the beginning of the book, when Atharva speaks with Nagasana, he makes a comment that his legion hasn't betrayed the Emperor like those of the others in the Crusader Host, which seems to imply the Host is all from traitor legions. 2. Right before the prison outbreak, Atharva is reading the minds of the other prisoners and comments that amongst Tagore's raging emotions is his anger at "his legion for abandoning him". 3. Then the aforementioned later reference that Atharva only released Marines who were from traitor legions, implying that loyalist Marines had been imprisoned as well. The traitor/loyalist makeup I think can't really be decided until further info is released, as 1 and 3 are vague but contradictory on their surface. I'm really curious if there's any implications in #2 - if Tagore is simply upset that the World Eaters haven't rescued their captured brethren, or if it's something more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2961235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 The disparate empires on Terra that the Space Marines were sent to bring to heel were allowed (quite magnanimously if I recall) by the Emperor hundreds of years to accept/be absorbed by the Imperial machine. These empires refused to bow and after 230 years or so the Emperor decided to put his boot down. Either the Emperor is too busy or a very patient dictator. Prolly both. It is easy to be magnanimous as the Master of all Mankind and likely easy to forget the little things even for a God-like being. He has other things on his mind like species survival, Chaos Apocalypse, the joys of parenting test-tube supermen, cooking the perfect quiche... Anyways, the Emperor has more things on his mind than the fates of unimportant individuals. That is the truth of it. Not to say that Big E does not care about the individual but on the larger scale of things he cannot be bothered to care. He is the totality of humanity, bad and good and all the connotations that may contain as this 'man' struggles to maintain not only species survival but galactic dominance. The Emperor's domain isnt united Clewz and glad you brought it up! ADB waxed on this quite poetically in a different post talking about space being big and humans the next system over seeing their neighbors as alien and stuff. Crime and bad stuff occurs even in the 30k 'Silver Age'! Just because the Emperor is walking around shooting psychic rays of light doesnt mean the universe is perfect. The true 'Golden Age' was the time before 'Old Night'; a time of high technology, psychic might, thinking machines and psychic/genetic/bionic augmented soldiery; the Emperor, Ad Mech and others are still vultures picking off the bones and rebuilding from the ashes of greater time that came before. Terra was wrecked during Old Night like 80 times over. Nuclear wasteland and all that. The Heresy did not have that kind of impact on Terra I'd think compared to that scale. The seas dried up and the world was recast in a new die. The Crusader Host seemed to have loyalist and traitor captives. Perhaps the loyalists were just unfortunate victims of circumstance and during this time of crisis security was raised to a point where free-agents were imprisoned? Considering the betrayal at Istvaan it seems this would have been a prudent and a wise move, if a bit heavy-handed... but, it is the Imperium. As to why those Marines were out and about could have ranged from envoys, messengers, missions, outcasts/exiles, undesirables or any number of reasons. I kind of like it open-ended to be honest (like this sentence) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2961297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Except "Crusader Host" and the opening of TOD implies they were some sort of combined military unit, not a random collection of Astartes from assorted backgrounds/missions. Presumably they are some sort of detachment from the Great Crusades, possibly part of an Expedition Fleet that happened to be in or near the solar system or on Terra itself for whatever reason. The only real 'motive' given for anyone is the implication that Atharva has learned via Magnus that Kai knows something that could be of vital interest to Horus, but the connection (if any) between that and the greater 'purpose' or reason for the Crusader Host is not given. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2961322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I totally agree with you that the characters knew each other very well but did not seem to be familiar with each other in a combat sense. The Crusader Host didnt seem to be as much the name of the 'unit' as it was the facility of the combined barracks of Space Marine operations on Terra and the Marines housed in it at the time. The Host was a waystation and the lodestone/launching pad for Space Marine involvement in the Great Crusade. Maybe they were Marines who were recruiters/training attaches who would recruit from Terra? Sgt. Slaughter/Tagore would be an interesting instructor :D Jeez, moved onto other books and this one keeps popping up. Good book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2961628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Except I'm pretty sure all recruiting is homeworld-exclusive after a Primarch is reunited with his legion - the HH novels so far have indicated the resultant divisions between those that are "Terran-born" vs native-born and the Terran-born are always portrayed as being veterans or otherwise with the legion prior to being reunited with their respective Primarch. My guess is if they're already on Terra (and for a while), that they're meant to be a force for putting down possible rebellions still occurring on Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2962478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJORNin83 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You are correct in saying most if not all recruits for each respective legion is done on the homeworld after the Primarch has been found. All the previous Space Marines before they found their respective Primarch were from Terra, therefore they are always the oldest and most veteran. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2962910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezzy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I got the impression that the Crusader host were a body of Marines on Terra with one or two from each Legion, simply there to represent their respective colours in the Crusade on the ground on Terra. No idea how these Marines would be chosen, maybe they had err'd against their Legion/Primarch in some way too large to go unpunished but too small to warrant death or excommunication? (Much like the Wolfblades in 40K?) In any case, it makes sense after Istvaan V that any Astartes on the planet would be imprisoned at least on a temporary basis while the chaos ran riot all over the place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2964004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Anyone else find the faceless statue/Nightbringer wannabe completely unneccessary? Just seemed that the end of the book was rushed, and in the middle of this big fight in which everyones heart is getting cleaved or stabbed (Subha, Ashuba, Atharva, Saturnalia... If i remember rightly) this big ****-off ghost appears and just really does nothing but add some desultory oooh-aaaah, confusing, to the ending. Great book though. When Magnus came to Terra and the city of Sight was going bat **** insane, it felt like i was watching a movie inside my head. Bhabu was a babe, also. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2970326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karolus Magnus Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Anyone else find the faceless statue/Nightbringer wannabe completely unneccessary? Completely agree, it seemed like a half formed idea that he wasn't willing to just get rid of. Honestly, the whole temple of woe story line seemed completely unnecessary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2993118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Anyone else find the faceless statue/Nightbringer wannabe completely unneccessary? Completely agree, it seemed like a half formed idea that he wasn't willing to just get rid of. Honestly, the whole temple of woe story line seemed completely unnecessary. I got the impression it was part of a greater plot line the author had explored and planned for but had to cut out due to size constraints. It didn't seem very important to the novel at all really, including the wholr Navigator thing taken refuge at the temple. Dems the breaks I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2993667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I got the impression that the Crusader host were a body of Marines on Terra with one or two from each Legion, simply there to represent their respective colours in the Crusade on the ground on Terra. That's exactly what I figured the Crusader Host referred to - representatives from the Legions. Not sure as to their function, probably just ceremonial and not sure how they would be selected, probably just by drawing straws as there was no standard rank present. It would explain the World Eater's sense of abandonment by being given such a role. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2993690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Atharva specifically notes the Crusader Host as being "representatives of the conquering Legions". So I would assume that is made of a diverse group pulled from any Legion. However I'm not sold that just because they mention that those with Atharva are traitors, that those left were indeed from loyalist chapters. In fact, they never say Legionnaires at all, it's possible that the other cells were simply inhabited by equally as lethal non-marine prisoners. Also, one of the traitors states that they were locked up simply for the colors on their shoulders (or something along those lines) which seems to contradict that any loyalists would actually have been locked up alongside them, yet there is Atharva. Things are vague and contradictory. Bugger. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2993701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
soonerhef Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Thing I didnt get at the end was how they got hold of the organ they needed to stay alive..... :P I got the idea it may have been from Severin, the Luna Wolf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/240972-spoilers-the-outcast-dead/page/7/#findComment-2993848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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