assaulting an enemy that was already in assault

[Initiate of the Templar]

ok so here's what happened:

 

I'm in a doubles tournament at my local GS, playing on the top table.

Im paired with a dual lash chaos marine list and Im playing Black Templars

 

we are playing against two almost identical DE lists, the only difference being one has an archon and the other has vect

 

so the archon assaults my marshal and we start duking it out. he hits at initiative a billion, wounds me three times and I ignore three times with my storm shield. unfortunately, he makes all 4 of his 2++ saves when I start swinging at him. then my buddy's lash prince assaults into the archon during our turn. the archon then attempts to allocate all his attacks to the DP.

from what I understand that is illegal. on the first or second page of the FAQ it states that an enemy unit that is in B2B with two enemy units, but at the beginning of the round (before anyone started swinging) was only in assault with one of the units, that unit MUST attack the unit that it was originally in B2B with.

 

begin flamewar; we ended up getting into a huge debate and eventually the tourney organizers decided I was right, but now the two DE players are mudslinging, saying that I cheated and manipulated the rules to suit me. I need another opinion on this.

 

Am I reading this wrong?

[Something Wycked]

Well, no flame war needed, especially not at the B&C :lol:

 

What I think it comes down to is that the base rule book does not have rules for games involving more than 2 players; this is something that the TO needs to decide and make clear before they tourney starts to make sure things like this don't happen.

[JamesI]

You were wrong. The Faq states that if in base with only one unit before blows are struck which is after moves, you must assault that unit.

 

If the prince assaulted and was in base, the archon could chose to hit the prince.

[Initiate of the Templar]

can you give me an example of when this would happen? before blows are struck but after moves, how is it possible to move after youre done declaring assaults?

[Legatus]

so the archon assaults my marshal and we start duking it out. he hits at initiative a billion, wounds me three times and I ignore three times with my storm shield. unfortunately, he makes all 4 of his 2++ saves when I start swinging at him. then my buddy's lash prince assaults into the archon during our turn. the archon then attempts to allocate all his attacks to the DP.

from what I understand that is illegal. on the first or second page of the FAQ it states that an enemy unit that is in B2B with two enemy units, but at the beginning of the round (before anyone started swinging) was only in assault with one of the units, that unit MUST attack the unit that it was originally in B2B with.

You check who can attack who before any attacks have been rolled, but after assault moves and defender reaction.

 

So it goes:

 

1. Assaulting unit moves

 

2. Defenders reaction move

 

3. Check who is in contact with who, and who each unit/model can attack in this combat

 

4. start rolling for attacks

 

The Daemon Prince had assaulted in step 1, and was in contact with the Archon during step 3. Therefor the Daemon Prince was a viable target for the Archon to attack.

 

The rule is intended to prevent confusions due to models being removed during early initiative phases and the "base-to-base" situation then being different for later initiative phases. You look at how the units and models are positioned before you start rolling for attacks, and that is how you determine what enemy units your own units can attack.

[JamesI]

Initiate, you don't have the most up to date FAQ.

 

From the current one

 

Q: For multiple combats there are two extra rules

under the heading ‘Attacking’. For these rules, at what

point is “at the beginning of the combat”? (p41)

A: It is after defenders react when you pick the combat

but before any attacks have been rolled.

[greatcrusade08]

yeah the latest rulebook FAQ made it really clear that "at the beginning of assault" actually meant "just before you swing with your attacks".

before people used to interpret the rule to say that the 'check' was made before charge moves were made and therefore could only attack those your were originally in B2B with.

 

rule of thumb now, aslong as your in B2B you can swing at them, or split your attacks if your in B2B with multiple opponents

[Initiate of the Templar]

ok so now it comes to light. thanks for all the help guys.

[Something Wycked]

I guess the BRB does have rules for games involving more than 2 players, eh? :lol:

 

Let us know how it goes after you bring this up to the TO and opponents, eh?

[thade]

In 2v2 games I've been involved in, each team of 2 (or more) take entire turns as if they are one player. So, they share the same Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases. In this case, you and your team mates would have had to have moved into that assault simultaneously so his IC could have elected which to swing at.

 

From the way you describe it, it sounds like each player got his own turn, which is a layer of complexity the game is not designed to handle.

[ShinyRhino]

In 2v2 games I've been involved in, each team of 2 (or more) take entire turns as if they are one player. So, they share the same Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases. In this case, you and your team mates would have had to have moved into that assault simultaneously so his IC could have elected which to swing at.

 

From the way you describe it, it sounds like each player got his own turn, which is a layer of complexity the game is not designed to handle.

 

Nah, he said the Archon assaulted his Marshall in the Dark Eldar players' turn. Noth ICs survived, and then the Prince joined during the Templar/CSM players' turn, adding to an existing combat.

[Jacinda]

It took place over two turns, Thade. Rather, one full turn.

 

On the DE players turn, the Archon assualted Initiate's marshal and they were both end up locked in combat. The next turn (which was the shared turn for his team) Initiate's partner assualted with the DP to join the pair already locked in combat. The Arcnon (who hits at initiative a billion) swings first and allocates all hits to the DP. This is cool because you determin who is in BtB at the start of combat after the assualt move and any reaction moves but before actually swinging. So when combat started on the second turn, the Archon was in base to base with both Initiate and the DP.

 

If it makes it easier to follow, just ignore everything about it being a team game and assume a Daemon Prince can join a BT marshal's army :huh:

[thade]

Haha, oh I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :huh:

 

Likely what I said can be safely disregarded then. <3

[IronfrontAlex]

IT WAS I, I WAS HIS PARTNER BWAHAHAHAHAH

 

No, really. Word Bearers CSM always team up with black templars... I SWEAR

 

 

But yeah Jacinda is right with how it went down. And yes the archon strikes at I-one billion.

 

 

That being said the mudslinging is a bit rediculous.... but we WERE wrong? was there more than one 5th ed rulebook FAQ?

[JamesI]

IT WAS I, I WAS HIS PARTNER BWAHAHAHAHAH

 

No, really. Word Bearers CSM always team up with black templars... I SWEAR

 

 

But yeah Jacinda is right with how it went down. And yes the archon strikes at I-one billion.

 

 

That being said the mudslinging is a bit rediculous.... but we WERE wrong? was there more than one 5th ed rulebook FAQ?

well, by all 4 rulebook FAQs you were wrong. But FAQ 1.4 is quoted above in one of my earlier posts.

[Valerian]

Stolen from Seahawk, and modified slightly. This has to be the singlemost misunderstood rule in the history of 40K:

Valerian

[IronfrontAlex]

really? this is all it means?

 

First off, we dont allow that kind of language here. Second off, we dont allow chat speak. That its become a common meme doesnt change either of those facts.

[Frosty the Pyro]

really? this is all it means?

 

First off, we dont allow that kind of language here. Second off, we dont allow chat speak. That its become a common meme doesnt change either of those facts.

 

 

yes thats all it means, that rule is simply there to say that removing models at a higher inititive does not change if or who models can attack (assuming said model is still alive).

[Something Wycked]

This is a specific change from earlier rule sets where a unit with higher initiative could kill the front ranks of the opposing engaged unit to prevent any attacks on them from happening.

[Seahawk]

As in, entire earlier editions that no longer exist.

 

@ Valerian - Thanks for bringing my golden picture up! I couldn't find it meself, but yes this is easily THE most misunderstood rule in the game. Comically, it is also one of the most simple rules to understand, if you have a visual aid. I thought it was clear in the rulebook before the FAQ, but some people...*shrug*

[Valerian]

@ Valerian - Thanks for bringing my golden picture up! I couldn't find it meself, but yes this is easily THE most misunderstood rule in the game. Comically, it is also one of the most simple rules to understand, if you have a visual aid. I thought it was clear in the rulebook before the FAQ, but some people...*shrug*

 

That's why I saved your picture onto my hard-drive the first time I saw you use it to explain this - I knew we would need it again!

 

V

[Seahawk]

Heh, too true. It does come up every 3-6 months or so.

[Spacefrisian]

Nice picture but the picture that was given by the OP (in words) is different.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Nice picture but the picture that was given by the OP (in words) is different.

 

yes, but the OP's "picture" had no relivance to the rule the op was asking about, other than to alow us to say "nope, you're wrong." The golden picture allows us to not only say "you're wrong" but also what the rule actualy means, "Here is Knowledge, now Guard it Well"

[Captain Idaho]

The easy way to remember the assault rules for who can strike who is:

 

If you are in base contact with a model and you and it are still alive, you can attack it/the unit it is in.

 

I've actually had someone try and pull the stunt on me. I had my Honour Guard eating through an Ork Mob which stayed in combat thanks to fearless rules and he counter charged with Mega Nobz. He actually took it to the judges when I declared most of my attacks at the Mega Nobz! Obviously they ruled against him, but it is a prime example of why the rule is important and should be understood, seeing as if I couldn't have attacked the Mega Nobz I would have been a sitting duck.

 

Of course Seahawk's diagram shows how you can't swap a model from attacking a unit wiped out to support other models (you were already committed against said dead unit).