WTT question

[Hear da Lamentation]

I recently played against blood angels. He had a power on his librarian that gave him 10str that round.

 

My question is this. If he hits a unit protected by a WTT - would you get a defensive roll because you are being effected by a psychic ability (the str 10 is instakilling for instance)?

 

It's a tough one I think. I can see both sides of the argument

[Brother Nihm]

As the power doesn't affect the guy being smacked with str 10 but instead affects the psyker casting the 'buff', I find it unlikely that the "victim" of the str 10 weapons gets any kind of roll.

[Wulfebane]

Went googling through other forums for this topic. Only found the topic touched on once over at warseer, and the verdict was 'not allowed'.

 

However, it was a very brief topic and I wasn't satisfied by the answer as usually they're debated. I did a similar search for the WTT versus GK's Hammerhand and got better results.

 

Many lengthy discussions, including one on this forum, but the general consensus was that due to the wording of the WTT, the unit protected is being "affected by an enemy psychic power" regardless of whether it's directly or indirectly (which is not mentioned in the WTT description), and as such, they will get the 5+ save to nullify the instakill only. It will not negate taking a wound, so it's only an effective defense for models with multiple wounds.

[Hear da Lamentation]

This would be by feeling too Wulfebane.

 

An additional possibility though ... what about a dreadnaught with one (even Bjorn). Without the str 10 effect, he would be unhittable by the librarian.

[Wulfebane]

This would be by feeling too Wulfebane.

 

An additional possibility though ... what about a dreadnaught with one (even Bjorn). Without the str 10 effect, he would be unhittable by the librarian.

 

I still think what I said on the WTT holds up. It just means that the librarian isn't the best candidate to go toe-to-toe against Bjorn... aka get a TH or PF in there instead.

 

There's still the chance that Bjorn won't save on a 5+, which is the only way to negate the power other than a runic weapon/armor, and the Str10 hit goes through. If and when it does, Bjorn still gets his 5+ Ward of the Primarch invuln. save against glance/pen hits.

[Morollan]

I'm not sure what a WTT is but it sounds like it gives a save vs psychic powers. Well the psychic power is not affecting the unit, it is cast on the librarian. Would you argue that a unit is affected by a psychic power that gives the caster a cover save against their shooting?

[Hear da Lamentation]

I'm not sure what a WTT is but it sounds like it gives a save vs psychic powers. Well the psychic power is not affecting the unit, it is cast on the librarian. Would you argue that a unit is affected by a psychic power that gives the caster a cover save against their shooting?

 

A WTT is a Wolf Tooth Talisman. The wording of the rules is as follows :

 

"If a model or the unit he is with is affected by an enemy psychic power , roll d6. On a 5+ that power is nullified. "

 

I would think being instakilled by a psychic power which has just upped your opponents str to 10 for a round is certainly "being affected by an enemy psychic power". Shooting at someone who has been given a cover save from a psychic ability isnt affecting the unit shooting, it is effecting the target unit save - and so is different.

 

It's one for debate though ... hence the post

[JamesI]

The psychic power only affects the librarian. There is no save.

 

Would you get a save through WTT if the librarian used Unleash Rage and therefore his whole squad got to reroll missed hits? No.

[Morollan]

I'm not sure what a WTT is but it sounds like it gives a save vs psychic powers. Well the psychic power is not affecting the unit, it is cast on the librarian. Would you argue that a unit is affected by a psychic power that gives the caster a cover save against their shooting?

 

A WTT is a Wolf Tooth Talisman. The wording of the rules is as follows :

 

"If a model or the unit he is with is affected by an enemy psychic power , roll d6. On a 5+ that power is nullified. "

 

I would think being instakilled by a psychic power which has just upped your opponents str to 10 for a round is certainly "being affected by an enemy psychic power". Shooting at someone who has been given a cover save from a psychic ability isnt affecting the unit shooting, it is effecting the target unit save - and so is different.

 

It's one for debate though ... hence the post

 

The effect of the psychic power is to raise the librarians strength to 10, nothing else. What the Librarian does after that is up to him but the psychic power itself has no effect on the unit with the WTT. If someone is arguing that being hit by an increased strength weapon is being "affected by an enemy psychic power" then I would strongly disagree. Where do you draw the line? The aforementioned cover save could mean that the target unit survives to assault the WTT unit and wipes them out. Do they get a save against that? A Librarian casts The Summoning and brings a very nasty unit within shooting or assault range of the WTT unit, which it subsequently attacks. Do they get a save against that? An Eldar unit with a Warlock in it fails its morale test whilst in combat with a WTT unit but uses Embolden to reroll it and passes. Does the WTT get a save against that?

 

Psychic powers are generally cast either on the caster or against an enemy. The save would apply to the latter but not the former.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The psychic power only affects the librarian. There is no save.

 

Would you get a save through WTT if the librarian used Unleash Rage and therefore his whole squad got to reroll missed hits? No.

 

I agree with JamesI.

 

The Wolves are not being affected by a power.

They are being hurt by someone who is affected by a power.

[Legatus]

The Wolves are not being affected by a power.

They are being hurt by someone who is affected by a power.

Seconded.

 

The BA Librarian is affected by the power. The Space Wolves are affected by plain close combat.

 

There is no concept of "indirect" effects for the purpose of anti-psi saves. Imagine a Librarian used "Wings of Sanguinius", which allows him to move as if equipped with a jump pack. The power then allowes him to charge an enemy unit. The Librarian would not have been able to charge the unit without that power, so the unit is "indirectly affected" by the Librarian having used that power, as they are now in combat, whereas without the power they would not have been. They will still not get saves against the close combat attacks (or a possible following sweeping advance) in that combat round.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Yes, I see what you guys mean. The cover saves and re-rolls for morale aren't really relevant to this question, but I agree that something like "feel no pain" being cast on a unit by Nids could end up with a creature instakilling - and I certainly don't think that would be effected by the Wolf Tooth Talisman.

 

I think James and Marshal have probably summed it up correctly. The Wolves aren't being affected by a power .... the librarian is.

[Fang of Morkai]

My 2 cents as a Wolves player.

 

I think the WTT would not apply because the InstaKill is the result of STR 10 of the attacker and not the result of a power targeted at the character or unit.

 

What is different from the typical WTT scenario against GK and force weapons is that the character suffers a power weapon wound BUT looses all his remaining wounds DUE to the psychic power "Force Weapon". Therefore the character IS affected by a psychic power since he might not die from the power weapon wound but would from the force weapon EFFECT. So the WTT kicks in and allows a save.

 

As for Bjorn, his WTT won't save him BUT he is still Venerable so allowed a re-roll AND still has his 5+ Ward of the Primarch save.

 

I don't know if it reads as clear as it sounds in my mind at the time I wrote this.

[Schertenleib]

No save from the WOlf Tail. The power is affecting the BA not the Wolves.

[thade]

The psychic power only affects the librarian. There is no save.

This. Don't make the mistake of extending the word affects any further than the subject (which is the target of the power).

 

So, to further elucidate:

- Abilities like WTT and Aegis work against things like Blood Lance, Smite, and Avenger.

- Abilities like WTT and Aegis do not work against the Quickening, Hammerhand, or Sword of Sanguinus.

 

EDIT: A glaring error with pronouns that made my elucidation flat out wrong; corrected.

[Grey Mage]

Went googling through other forums for this topic. Only found the topic touched on once over at warseer, and the verdict was 'not allowed'.

 

However, it was a very brief topic and I wasn't satisfied by the answer as usually they're debated. I did a similar search for the WTT versus GK's Hammerhand and got better results.

 

Many lengthy discussions, including one on this forum, but the general consensus was that due to the wording of the WTT, the unit protected is being "affected by an enemy psychic power" regardless of whether it's directly or indirectly (which is not mentioned in the WTT description), and as such, they will get the 5+ save to nullify the instakill only. It will not negate taking a wound, so it's only an effective defense for models with multiple wounds.

I think thats overly complicated. The insta-kill isnt a product of the psychic power- its a product of being Str 10, wich is in turn product of being a psychic power.

 

Its a buff on another model... I dont think the save would be appropriate. Sadly.

[Valerian]

No save from the WOlf Tail. The power is affecting the BA not the Wolves.

 

9 out of 10 Space Wolves players agree, a Wolf Tail Talisman doesn't protect you from psychic powers an enemy model casts on his own unit.

 

Valerian

[Jacinda]

This is the way the old Shield of Faith rules worked as well. You must be the target or with in an area of effect to get the chance to nullify a power. Things that grant benefit to the caster (see through cover, improved strength, reroll to hit ... all that jazz) still works as normal.

[Leonaides]

Went googling through other forums for this topic. Only found the topic touched on once over at warseer, and the verdict was 'not allowed'.

 

However, it was a very brief topic and I wasn't satisfied by the answer as usually they're debated. I did a similar search for the WTT versus GK's Hammerhand and got better results.

 

Many lengthy discussions, including one on this forum, but the general consensus was that due to the wording of the WTT, the unit protected is being "affected by an enemy psychic power" regardless of whether it's directly or indirectly (which is not mentioned in the WTT description), and as such, they will get the 5+ save to nullify the instakill only. It will not negate taking a wound, so it's only an effective defense for models with multiple wounds.

I think thats overly complicated. The insta-kill isnt a product of the psychic power- its a product of being Str 10, wich is in turn product of being a psychic power.

 

Its a buff on another model... I dont think the save would be appropriate. Sadly.

Unless he was refering to the 5+ save vs Forceweapon death (since a GK with Hammerhand wouldnt be strong enough to ID a Space Wolf just by strength). That, I could see a WTT giving a save from, but if the GK player just left it as a power-weapon hit then no save...

[Grimtooth]

WTT doesn't do anything.

 

Unleashed Power does not make the Space Wolf more susceptible to being wounded, it makes the BA librarian wound easier.

 

That is the basic sniff test for WTT.