Brother Dakath Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 But the pilgrimage was before Istvaan. Chaos or not, timeline is set. Yes, but when you work with time travel things become complicated. Like Horus seeing the Emperor let the infant primarchs be taken by Chaos, or Argel Tal and crew destroying the huge Gellar field generators on Terra, all at least 200+ years before they actually did it. Lorgar could have gone forward in time to when he did have that power and then "lost" it when he went to Istvaan because he actually hadn't done the things for the Chaos Gods to grant him the power yet in the "real" timeline. Could just be an echo of the future, or the Chaos Gods giving Lorgar a taste of the power that would be available to him once he saw everything through to the end. Just my 2 cents if that makes any sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2914646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 You do realise the other Gods were probably helping him, given that Khorne broke the terms of their agreement. He doesn't set a fair test, the other Gods help him cheat. It's only fair, after all! :cuss So, the weakest Primarch, with the direct aid of Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch behind him, managed to beat Ang'grath, getting severely, utterly mauled in the process. Off the top of my head, his armour was torn up, numerous ribs broken, and he lost the use of one arm. He could barely walk after the fight. This is what I thought when I read it as well. If the other gods were trying to prevent Khorne from making An'ggarath manifest then he was probably seriously watered down power-wise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2914725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Sanguinius beat Ka'bandha the most powerful thirster at 30k. Why can't Lorgar beat a lesser one fairly ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2914774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Because Sanguinius is teh best eva. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2914779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HvitrValdyr Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 But you don't really know that. Lorgar was moving through time and being shown different things. Who's to say the fight didn't happen in the future? It's the Eye...crazy things happen. But the pilgrimage was before Istvaan. Chaos or not, timeline is set. The pilgrammage was also before the sacking of Prospero (IIRC) yet Lorgar was able to vist Magnus on the planet of the Sorcerers... And Magnus remembers that vist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2914997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 The pilgrammage was also before the sacking of Prospero (IIRC) yet Lorgar was able to vist Magnus on the planet of the Sorcerers... And Magnus remembers that vist. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...1774&page=7 post #133 should clarify then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broker Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 But the pilgrimage was before Istvaan. Chaos or not, timeline is set. Yes, but when you work with time travel things become complicated. Like Horus seeing the Emperor let the infant primarchs be taken by Chaos, or Argel Tal and crew destroying the huge Gellar field generators on Terra, all at least 200+ years before they actually did it. Lorgar could have gone forward in time to when he did have that power and then "lost" it when he went to Istvaan because he actually hadn't done the things for the Chaos Gods to grant him the power yet in the "real" timeline. Could just be an echo of the future, or the Chaos Gods giving Lorgar a taste of the power that would be available to him once he saw everything through to the end. Just my 2 cents if that makes any sense. Who's to say they travelled through time? Daemons are repeatedly shown to be liars and deceivers of consummate skill in 40k, so there's no reason to believe this is anything more than another story designed to corrupt good Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Uh... it's wasn't supposed to truely develop anything, it's supplemental reading. also Ka'Bandha is far from a regular Bloodthirster, the 5th edition Blood Angels Codex makes him out to be one of the strongest Bloodthirsters in existence. Read the post again... I said above average..... anyway he is certainly no way near the level of An'ggarath and Lorgar is not a patch on Sanguinus in H2H. And £20 is way too much for merely 'supplemental reading'...... for £6.99 a regular HH book gives me details in spades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Actually, it did develop something. Lorgar. Derp. Marginally...... and certainly not £20-30 worth Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Sanguinius beat Ka'bandha the most powerful thirster at 30k. Why can't Lorgar beat a lesser one fairly ? A lesser one? o_0 An'ggrath was the guardian of the skull throne so he's no mere lesser daemon! He was THE Bloodthirster at that point in time so Lorgar beating An'ggrath is a big thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sazabi24 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Uh... it's wasn't supposed to truely develop anything, it's supplemental reading. also Ka'Bandha is far from a regular Bloodthirster, the 5th edition Blood Angels Codex makes him out to be one of the strongest Bloodthirsters in existence. Read the post again idiot... I said above average..... anyway he is certainly no way near the level of An'ggarath and Lorgar is not a patch on Sanguinus in H2H. And £20 is way too much for merely 'supplemental reading'...... for £6.99 a regular HH book gives me details in spades. 1. the 5th edition Grey Knights Codex puts Ka'Bandha as the strongest Bloodthirster of Khorne. I'm pretty sure that puts him "near" the level of An'ggarath. 2. it's a limited edition novella, it's supposed to be expensive. Also, how did you manage to put so much angst into two lines of text? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 1. the 5th edition Grey Knights Codex puts Ka'Bandha as the strongest Bloodthirster of Khorne. I'm pretty sure that puts him "near" the level of An'ggarath. Top and bottom of it is we've got a top 3 Bloodthirsters out of An'ggrath, Skarbrand and Ka'Bandha. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Just finished Aurelian and I have to say I really enjoyed it on all levels! I particularly liked Angron's portrayal - which in my view is probably the most difficult Primarch to portray. ADB's done an excellent job showing him as unstable but not a complete lunatic - and also displaying emotions! I also liked the fact that Lorgar (the most scholar of all Primarchs) is actually thinking of Angron's quotes (the least intellectual of all Primarchs) while facing a Bloodthirster! I know it seems a bit of a detail as the book presents mainly Lorgar but also other Primarchs, but this is what struck me the most. So I look fwd for the next attempt on Angron! (which is coming soon, no?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 The pilgrammage was also before the sacking of Prospero (IIRC) yet Lorgar was able to vist Magnus on the planet of the Sorcerers... And Magnus remembers that vist. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...1774&page=7 post #133 should clarify then. Looks like ADB pwned my entire theory. I stand corrected. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 A lesser one? o_0 An'ggrath was the guardian of the skull throne so he's no mere lesser daemon! He was THE Bloodthirster at that point in time so Lorgar beating An'ggrath is a big thing. Compared to Ka'bandha at Eternity Gate who was THE bloodthirster at the time, An'ggrath was lesser. Only compared to him though, no shame. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HvitrValdyr Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 The pilgrammage was also before the sacking of Prospero (IIRC) yet Lorgar was able to vist Magnus on the planet of the Sorcerers... And Magnus remembers that vist. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...1774&page=7 post #133 should clarify then. That does indeed clarify that it was not future Lorgar, but present (pre-Istvaan) Lorgar who tackled the Bloodthirster (which is what I personally thought). But if the timeline is set, as you say, why was present Lorgar able to visit future Magnus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 You expect Warp to be consistent with its inconsistencies ? Not gonna happen. I know it sounds like a cop out but it gotta suffice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HvitrValdyr Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 You expect Warp to be consistent with its inconsistencies ? Not gonna happen. I know it sounds like a cop out but it gotta suffice. I can accept that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Only reason Aurelian was never the the 'warmaster' of chaos was because he didnt have the charisma or flare of Horus, if hed of had that he would be the one leading his legion to Terra! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2915919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Dakath Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Who's to say they travelled through time? Daemons are repeatedly shown to be liars and deceivers of consummate skill in 40k, so there's no reason to believe this is anything more than another story designed to corrupt good Astartes. Touche. That's the key when dealing with daemons. They could be telling the truth and they could not be, you never know. Kind of like when Erebus showed Horus the vision of the future where the Emperor was being heralded as a god and Horus and the other primarchs who fell to Chaos not having statues amongst the others. It was the future, but only if Horus fell to Chaos, which they oh so conveniently didn't tell him. :lol: But to wrap up the post, I agree with you, they could have been lying, it is a valid point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2916316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xa0s Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 I totally dig this book, tho I wish it was a lot more longer than it is at the present time. However, it's worth me coughing up some hard earned dollars for 'em, considering I admire ADB's work and his off-the-wall comments as it is. Totally my style. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2917110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Well if you say that An'ggrath getting beaten by Lorgar renders him to a punchbag status, i can't agree. As for Matt Ward i agree. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2917236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 The Ka-Bandha pics in Collected Visions do seem to be modelled on the Ang'grath model. Maybe they are one and the same daemon by two different names? That might account for both being described as "the mightiest" but Ang'grath apparently only having been summoned twice in 10,000 years whereas Ka-Bandha appears multiple times- - the daemon uses the name Ang'grath less often. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2917359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Anyone with eyes can see that from the fluff Ang'grath is seen as being numero uno.... albeit with a very close rivalry with Skarbrand. Lorgar as one of the weakest primarchs (if not the weakest) in H2H then kicks sand in his face..... after Sanguinus as one of the strongest in H2H gets the snot beaten out of him by a lesser Thirster??? Weak writing plain and simple..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2917556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Anyone with eyes can see that from the fluff Ang'grath is seen as being numero uno.... albeit with a very close rivalry with Skarbrand. Lorgar as one of the weakest primarchs (if not the weakest) in H2H then kicks sand in his face..... after Sanguinus as one of the strongest in H2H gets the snot beaten out of him by a lesser Thirster??? Weak writing plain and simple..... No. Here's something that some fans never really grasp. They have their interpretation of the lore, and assume it's The Lore. It's not. It's their interpretation. The Unbound is later beaten by an Inquisitor and some Grey Knights. So why would Lorgar - a primarch - have lost to it? Yes, back then, Lorgar wasn't the equal of his primarch brothers. That doesn't mean he was useless. Is it that hard to see it in relative terms? You say it's weak writing because Sanguinius is beaten by one, and Lorgar beats another. Well, with the greatest respect, that's nonsense. It's also about 3% of the issue. In addition to that, you're also being disingenuous with the "kicks sand in his face" comment. Lorgar is beaten bloody by the daemon. That couldn't be clearer. I don't understand. Why lie to make your false point make more sense? Why make it in the first place if it's patently wrong - if you have to resort to silly hyperbole to make it sound valid? I had to make a choice on Bloodthirsters. There was the Unbound, who came with a lot of rich lore, much more detailed to boot, with more info and titles, a connection to Skarbrand in the lore, and even a model. That's a pretty great foundation to go on. Or there was Ka'bandha, who will already feature in the series later on. So this would be him getting his ass kicked twice, which is something I wanted to avoid - as I hate the silly "This Character is a Punching Bag" meme as much as anyone, like with Avatars. It made more sense to avoid that meme with Ka'Bandha, especially as then people would then whine that Lorgar beat a daemon that had injured Sanguinius so grievously. Also, most of Ka'bandha's lore was in C:GK and C:BA, which were Mat Ward's codices, and I think even he would excuse me for saying this, but almost everything in those codices is "the best ever", so it's hard to know exactly how true a lot of it really is. They're codices rich in that type of hyperbole, which is all fine and good for a game supplement but doesn't make for particularly compelling prose. So in terms of making a choice on detailed, appealing lore, and not turning a bloodthirster into a repeated punching bag, I went with the Unbound. And I never made an objective reference to the Unbound being the very best; I merely had a character terrified of him, and listing his titles already mentioned in the lore. I was pretty careful in covering my back, since the lore itself is conflicted there. But one was a much more sensible choice than the other. This acidic, pointless, vicious stuff is one of the main reasons I'm curtailing any involvement in forums. It takes so freaking long. It benefits nothing, and no one. People are so quick to say "My view is right" and never think twice. It's ridiculous. There's no debate. There's no exchange of ideas. There's snide, vicious one-upmanship that often entirely misses the point of a debate just to "win" with incorrect soundbites. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241081-aurelian-discussion/page/2/#findComment-2917576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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