Aurelian Discussion

[Yogi]

ADB maybe you could ignore the herp derp criticism. Maybe you could just respond to reasonable posts?

[A D-B]

ADB maybe you could ignore the herp derp criticism. Maybe you could just respond to reasonable posts?

 

Fortunately for me, there's usually very little "herp derp criticism" (teehee), and it's usually either argued with or ignored long before I get anywhere near a thread. Like I said, it's just one of the reasons I'm pulling back the amount of time I spend on forums. It's eclipsed by hunting for paint scheme ideas and nodding sagely at other people's posts, wishing I'd been astute enough to say things in their words myself. Those two hobbies take ages, too.

 

Time, time, time.

[Greyall]

It's been explained by ADB when angry mobs were rioting over the fight between the Lion and Night Haunter that a fight is a contest of abilities in a setting - there's terrain, there's action and reaction, there's a mindset controlling the abilities, there's even randomness...

 

I'd almost understand if Lorgar had just laughed and one-hammered the daemon, but it was a close fight, and the "natural" winner (abilities-wise) came out on top.

 

Everyone knows Sanguinius is one of the prime fighters among Primarchs, that hasn't changed.

 

I'm sorry if this seems like asslicking, I'm a fan of discussion and have repeatedly been annoyed with some choices made by ADB in certain fights. For fanboyish reasons. Which, in my head, means the best thing to do is to keep said annoyance to myself and resort to the rational analysis.

[Captain Semper]

The whole "journey" of Lorgar in the Eye is surreal. The encounter with the Unbound was a test by the Gods. The Deamon's mandate was to test Lorgar's ability and faith, not to destroy him necessarily. And for a given ability of the testee, a test is as easy or difficult as the tester wishes.

 

The "reality" in Lorgar's journey has nothing to do with the reality of realspace. So comparing the performance of the Deamon in his realspace actions where his mandate is to destroy everything, should not be compared with the Deamon in Lorgar's journey in the Warp where the ultimate aim is to "tutor" him - the word lesson pops up a lot in the book.

 

It's just a difficult test. However, for a test to be meaningful one has to consider the potential of the subject that is tested. Since the ultimate agreement of the Gods was to "test" him then they had to put forward a test that Lorgar was ultimately capable of passing. Not easily mind you - but capable if he utilised all his abilities to the max. So any laxity would fail him. He didn't show any and he passed.

 

A Deamon is not an absolute quantity in my view - especially in the Warp. He is a direct extention of his patron God and therefore a tool. In this case a tool to test Lorgar. Surely if Khorne wanted Lorgar dead he could have done so easily. He could assign two Bloodthirsters for example. Or bestow the necessary power to the Unbound. That was not the point though. It was a test that was meant to give Lorgar a fair chance to pass. Or fail. And he passed.

 

Critisim by people that call others idiots is not really valid.

 

Now about the Lion... ;)

[2000AD]

No.

 

Here's something that some fans never really grasp. They have their interpretation of the lore, and assume it's The Lore. It's not. It's their interpretation. The Unbound is later beaten by an Inquisitor and some Grey Knights. So why would Lorgar - a primarch - have lost to it? Yes, back then, Lorgar wasn't the equal of his primarch brothers. That doesn't mean he was useless. Is it that hard to see it in relative terms? You say it's weak writing because Sanguinius is beaten by one, and Lorgar beats another. Well, with the greatest respect, that's nonsense. It's also about 3% of the issue. In addition to that, you're also being disingenuous with the "kicks sand in his face" comment. Lorgar is beaten bloody by the daemon. That couldn't be clearer. I don't understand. Why lie to make your false point make more sense? Why make it in the first place if it's patently wrong - if you have to resort to silly hyperbole to make it sound valid?

 

I had to make a choice on Bloodthirsters. There was the Unbound, who came with a lot of rich lore, much more detailed to boot, with more info and titles, a connection to Skarbrand in the lore, and even a model. That's a pretty great foundation to go on.

 

Or there was Ka'bandha, who will already feature in the series later on. So this would be him getting his ass kicked twice, which is something I wanted to avoid - as I hate the silly "This Character is a Punching Bag" meme as much as anyone, like with Avatars. It made more sense to avoid that meme with Ka'Bandha, especially as then people would then whine that Lorgar beat a daemon that had injured Sanguinius so grievously. Also, most of Ka'bandha's lore was in C:GK and C:BA, which were Mat Ward's codices, and I think even he would excuse me for saying this, but almost everything in those codices is "the best ever", so it's hard to know exactly how true a lot of it really is. They're codices rich in that type of hyperbole, which is all fine and good for a game supplement but doesn't make for particularly compelling prose.

 

So in terms of making a choice on detailed, appealing lore, and not turning a bloodthirster into a repeated punching bag, I went with the Unbound. And I never made an objective reference to the Unbound being the very best; I merely had a character terrified of him, and listing his titles already mentioned in the lore.

 

I was pretty careful in covering my back, since the lore itself is conflicted there. But one was a much more sensible choice than the other.

 

This acidic, pointless, vicious stuff is one of the main reasons I'm curtailing any involvement in forums. It takes so freaking long. It benefits nothing, and no one. People are so quick to say "My view is right" and never think twice. It's ridiculous. There's no debate. There's no exchange of ideas. There's snide, vicious one-upmanship that often entirely misses the point of a debate just to "win" with incorrect soundbites.

 

 

Ermmm and a no to you too.....

 

This has nothing to do with "my interpretation" of the lore for the very simple reason that the lore leaves very little room for interpretation! The Unbound was basically numero uno.

 

And yes An'ggrath was beaten by Lord Inquisitor Rex (an extremely formidable character in his own right) tooled up to the nines with anti-daemon equiplment (including a holy weapon) as well as having a team of grey knights (including another formidable character in Captain Stern)........ thats a pretty bad ass fighting unit. Bad ass fighting unit is not how I would describe Lorgar. And yes although he was injured he wasnt so badly done in to prevent challenging Kairos to a further battle afterwards!

 

Im sorry but youre being bitter and a bit hypocritical..... you are a author - if you cant handle criticism then dont write. You put your name to a product that by your own admission carried a premium price tag but which you were confident carried a premium quality to match it.

 

IMO the premium in price wasn't matched by a premium in quality. You talk about whining posters..... it is you that should stop whining. You were the one that put out a product that was 1/3 of usual size and 300-400% more expensive.

 

Youre damn right I was expecting something exceptional...... and dont you forget it..... I AM THE CUSTOMER.

 

So instead of being unable to accept criticism and attempting to wrote long waffling retorts....... take this..... YOU MADE YOUR BED AND NOW YOU LIE IN IT.

 

If you think what I wrote was "vicious" then that just shows that you lack backbone.

 

 

Ps Just to demonstrate that this isnt personal just business...... excellent job on Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver

[Lord Ragnarok]

WARNING!

Please keep the discussion clinical and without personal jabs.

[esinhorn]

ADB the solution is simple

Keep the Trolling down to one day a week and only a couple of hours at that.

Second become anoyonomus that way you can enjoy the hobby like a normal joe once again.

 

Why do people talk like you are not only a writer but also the head of marketing for Black Library?

You might just have a second check laying around,ask Laurie to look for you.

The only thing ADB had to do with the 300% pricer book is one of the bosses asked him to write a mini book.

Don't get all mad at him if you do not think it is worth it and you know damn well this story will come out in one of the final Horus Heresy Anthologies or Omnibusses.

 

I guess he thinks for that money you should be one of those authors who write personalized books where you make him a character in the story.

"Then Lorgar and Joe walked out of the Eye,if it was not for Joe all would be lost"

[Greyall]

Where's this new lore stating Anggrath was more powerful than Ka'Bhanda?

[A D-B]

Im sorry but youre being bitter and a bit hypocritical..... you are a author - if you cant handle criticism then dont write. You put your name to a product that by your own admission carried a premium price tag but which you were confident carried a premium quality to match it.

 

There's no need to apologise - you're wrong, after all. I'm still confident about it. Thankfully, the reviews and forum feedback back me up on that. I've seen 2 or 3 opinions like yours out of perhaps 400 opinions so far to the contrary. Most writers would kill for those numbers. The language in the criticism (like yours earlier in the thread) shows me - and most people, I suspect - just how much you've missed the point, were bogged down in conflicting lore that has nothing to do with me, or simply zigged instead of zagged when it came to interpretation, which is your call.

 

Incidentally, it's a myth that all criticism is valid or useful. I can take criticism as well as anyone. That doesn't mean all of it is worthwhile. You having an opinion doesn't make it informed or noteworthy, whether it's positive, negative, or anything else.

 

So instead of being unable to accept criticism and attempting to wrote long waffling retorts....... take this..... YOU MADE YOUR BED AND NOW YOU LIE IN IT.

 

The bed that has practically all of the Aurelian feedback saying it's excellent? The dozens of messages saying it's one of the best installments in the series? Or should I take your opinion over everyone else's, despite your analysis being less detailed and more flawed than most? If so, why? Stop trying to win on silly soundbites with no basis beyond insulting someone, and actually try to understand the situation. I'm not worried about how I, and my points, look in this thread. You're acting like I'm desperately defending myself against some horde of valid negativity. Take another look. See the explanations and numbers behind both sides of the debate. One of them is much more weighted, balanced, and detailed; less stubborn, snide and confrontational. It shouldn't be hard to work out which.

 

Where's this new lore stating Anggrath was more powerful than Ka'Bhanda?

 

It's not new (or even quite that specific). It's from Imperial Armour, a few years ago now.

 

Like I explained in my post above, when it came to choices, the Unbound came with a ripe, tempting background and worked well for the spot. Ka'Bandha's already got his own stuff to do.

 

The whole "journey" of Lorgar in the Eye is surreal. The encounter with the Unbound was a test by the Gods. The Deamon's mandate was to test Lorgar's ability and faith, not to destroy him necessarily. And for a given ability of the testee, a test is as easy or difficult as the tester wishes.

 

The "reality" in Lorgar's journey has nothing to do with the reality of realspace. So comparing the performance of the Deamon in his realspace actions where his mandate is to destroy everything, should not be compared with the Deamon in Lorgar's journey in the Warp where the ultimate aim is to "tutor" him - the word lesson pops up a lot in the book.

 

It's just a difficult test. However, for a test to be meaningful one has to consider the potential of the subject that is tested. Since the ultimate agreement of the Gods was to "test" him then they had to put forward a test that Lorgar was ultimately capable of passing. Not easily mind you - but capable if he utilised all his abilities to the max. So any laxity would fail him. He didn't show any and he passed.

 

A Deamon is not an absolute quantity in my view - especially in the Warp. He is a direct extention of his patron God and therefore a tool. In this case a tool to test Lorgar. Surely if Khorne wanted Lorgar dead he could have done so easily. He could assign two Bloodthirsters for example. Or bestow the necessary power to the Unbound. That was not the point though. It was a test that was meant to give Lorgar a fair chance to pass. Or fail. And he passed.

 

Critisim by people that call others idiots is not really valid.

 

Now about the Lion... B)

 

I've seen a lot of this kind of analysis, actually. It's called "getting it". On every level.

 

One of the main benefits of forums is seeing posts like this (thankfully common on B&C, with its high post quality) and using them as weapons in the war of "See? I'm not writing for 15-year-olds."

[Greyall]

It's not new (or even quite that specific). It's from Imperial Armour, a few years ago now.

 

Like I explained in my post above, when it came to choices, the Unbound came with a ripe, tempting background and worked well for the spot. Ka'Bandha's already got his own stuff to do.

 

My question was meant as a response to 2000's claim that the lore leaves no room for doubt, but like you said, there's hyperbole aplenty in this grimdark future. My point being, sticking "The Most..." labels on 40K characters is dangerous business. Or at least reading the character with only that label in mind.

[A D-B]

It's not new (or even quite that specific). It's from Imperial Armour, a few years ago now.

 

Like I explained in my post above, when it came to choices, the Unbound came with a ripe, tempting background and worked well for the spot. Ka'Bandha's already got his own stuff to do.

 

My question was meant as a response to 2000's claim that the lore leaves no room for doubt, but like you said, there's hyperbole aplenty in this grimdark future. My point being, sticking "The Most..." labels on 40K characters is dangerous business. Or at least reading the character with only that label in mind.

 

Ah, for really reals. There's still room for doubt, like you said; especially in Aurelian, where I specifically avoid any objective mention of "power levels" and "the most", purely because I loathe that stuff. It's not a codex designed to make army choices appealing. Subtlety is a good thing in prose.

[Billuriye]

Where's this new lore stating Anggrath was more powerful than Ka'Bhanda?

 

Nowhere. Especially not when at Eternity Gate where Khorne pumps him up to his fullest. The troll lies.

[Castiel]

Youre damn right I was expecting something exceptional...... and dont you forget it..... I AM THE CUSTOMER.

 

Correction, you are a customer.

 

Also, from what I've seen the majority of the 3000 or so of us that also bought Aurelian really enjoyed it, and consider it to be £30 well spent. There are at least three "strongest" Bloodthirsters that I have heard of, as previously pointed out. So who's strongest? Which bit of lore it the "right" one? I personally think that A D-B did a good job in choosing Anggrath, as to have Lorgar beat Ka'Banda would have rendered him to punchbag status, and would have probably damaged the plot for the events on Signus. And it was hardly an easy fight as well, its not like Lorgar just pulped him, Lorgar barely walked away from the fight.There have been several well put together arguments as to why Lorgar was able to beat Anggrath, all of which make perfect sense.

 

In case you missed them:

 

1) He's a Primarch. One of the Emperor's Sons, for pity's sake, gene-bred for combat and built to dish out and withstand ridiculous amounts of damage. Hardly a pushover any way you slice it. He might not be as good as his brothers at H2H, but that hardly makes him a pushover, even for a Greater demon.

2) The other 3 Chaos gods did'nt want Anggrath there, so he almost certainly wasn't at full strength, which would have made the fight that bit "easier" for Lorgar.

3) It was a test, a test is meant to be tough, but not impossible. A test is meaningless if you don't need a lot of effort to pass it, and Lorgar quite clearly raised his game for this one.

 

They all make sense, take your pick! :P

[Son of Rawl]

The test part against the Blood Thirster reminded me of Archaon's fluff from Warhammer fantasy, he too was tested by all four gods, and Khornes challenge was to pit him against a Blood Thirster to earn the right to be the Everchosen

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Sorry, but this is the first time I've seen an author take on forum goers and IT'S FREAKING COOL. Like out of a novel or something. ADB should do this more often.

Personally, I loved the evolution of Lorgar. He's no longer 'waah waaah Erebus gimme your shoulder to weep on' (exaggeration to make my point), he's the badass bad guy that loyalists fear.

[DarKnight]

The funny part of this to me is that ADB has done the most outside of the original creators to mold the character or Lorgar, and people want to disagree with his continued evolution from that same author. this is why fanboys don't deserve anything good.

[Grimdarkness]

The most ironic thing is the GDoK show's up on a demon world under the sway of a servant of slaanesh. So all this talk of timelines and time travel is funny since the collected vision books put slaanesh and Korne daemon's on the same planet in the first place.

 

 

Just remember this no book or codex is every going to be 100% right or perfect for the very simple reason that you did not write it and if you did fanboys would be screaming for your head because you got it wrong somehow.

 

G.W fluff/cannon is always changing curse be upon the changer of ways for his vile plane's.

[Lord Ragnarok]

This current debate must end. Future comments should stay on topic....

"Anyway all of that aside I'm interested to hear all of your opinions on the book so far."

[Aqatone]

You know, on my second read through of this I'd of been more than happy if the entire book was just all the primarchs standing around talking. Though I am still forever annoyed at Fulgrim being possessed. I never liked this bit of fluff.

[Iron Lord]

Somebody had to be, since in Index Astartes: Death Guard, it starts that Horus did not need to resort to ritual possession to win over Mortarion, unlike with some other primarchs.

 

So- besides Fulgrim, who else would have fitted "daemonically possessed primarch" based on older info?

[Castiel]

Somebody had to be, since in Index Astartes: Death Guard, it starts that Horus did not need to resort to ritual possession to win over Mortarion, unlike with some other primarchs.

 

So- besides Fulgrim, who else would have fitted "daemonically possessed primarch" based on older info?

 

I could see Angron succumbing (sp?) to a Khornate demon maybe, he's the only other one that would possibly fit the demonically possessed background.

[Iron Lord]

He is described as a "twisted red form" wielding a "glowing runesword" during the Battle of Terra.

 

But that might be, like Mortarion and Magnus, a case of promotion to Daemon Prince, rather than possession.

[ninja6fett]

You know, on my second read through of this I'd of been more than happy if the entire book was just all the primarchs standing around talking. Though I am still forever annoyed at Fulgrim being possessed. I never liked this bit of fluff.

 

A thousand times this. Though I did like the ending bits with Fulgrim and the possibilities it brings up.

 

I've only read it once so far, but I really enjoyed it, once again another top notch offering from ADB.

[Beef]

You know, on my second read through of this I'd of been more than happy if the entire book was just all the primarchs standing around talking. Though I am still forever annoyed at Fulgrim being possessed. I never liked this bit of fluff.

 

A thousand times this. Though I did like the ending bits with Fulgrim and the possibilities it brings up.

 

I've only read it once so far, but I really enjoyed it, once again another top notch offering from ADB.

 

 

I totally agree, a book with the Primarchs all interacting with each other would be great. I really loved the book non the less. It was an excelent read along with all of ADBs work.

 

I just did not like the price tag but thats not anything to do with the writer.

[Aqatone]

Somebody had to be, since in Index Astartes: Death Guard, it starts that Horus did not need to resort to ritual possession to win over Mortarion, unlike with some other primarchs.

 

So- besides Fulgrim, who else would have fitted "daemonically possessed primarch" based on older info?

 

No one, it's just not to me liking to have any of the primarchs possessed. I'd just prefer it if they were all *them*.