Aurelian Discussion

[MagicMan]

Yeah i agree with you. They're all such interesting/unique characters, that to have one subsumed by a (Moustache twirling? He seemed a little in Fulgrim. Didn't pick up Aurelian.) Daemon is a bit of a boner kill.

 

 

 

 

Thats the fluff though, i guess. If it didn't happen other people would be moaning about that.

[Billuriye]

Horus was possessed in their last fight with Emperor. Only full assault from Emperor was able to make him come to his senses and he said they will claim him again so that Emperor should kill him now. I got this from Collected Visions. It does not say Gods possess Horus but from the description it is no less than a possession.

[Captain Semper]

Possesed? I thought his abilities were enhanced by the Chaos Powers, but he retained his personality to the end. Maybe I'll have to cross check...

[Watch-commander Albus]

Youre damn right I was expecting something exceptional...... and dont you forget it..... I AM THE CUSTOMER.

 

So instead of being unable to accept criticism and attempting to wrote long waffling retorts....... take this..... YOU MADE YOUR BED AND NOW YOU LIE IN IT.

 

If you think what I wrote was "vicious" then that just shows that you lack backbone.

 

Whatever it is that you just wrote, 2000AD, it hardly qualifies as criticism...

 

I recognize a lot of ADB's retort. Like him I find it very hard to understand just how some of you people read the HH books.

 

If I understood it right, the base premise of this thread is: "OMG, how can Lorgar beat the strongest amongst the Blood Thirsters if he is unable to put up a decent fight with Corax." Well, that is rather sad if that is all that you carried away with after reading Aurelian. Someone here on the forums (or was it on another website) stated that Fulgrim was a bad book because "Fulgrim is the most awesome sword-fighter of the Imperium and there was no fancy sword-play by Fulgrim in the book." Perhaps I am deceiving myself, but whenever my wife asks if those "space marine books" are only about shooting and fighting, I tell her that they are about much more than that. For one thing, these books are about betrayal, deceit and loyalty, about the psychology of transhuman and de facto invincible living beings, about facing a reality where magic (or Chaos) overpowers human progress and science, about the great themes of human mythology transplanted into a fantastic and futuristic setting, and so much more.

 

I know that some people just read these novels as a supplement and background for the tabletop game. Well, that is OK, and I understand that in the tabletop game you could weigh off characters by comparing their stats or weapon load-out or whatever. But the Horus Heresy is not table top (at least not until Forge World puts out enough models for it). So, small word of advice, there is no use at all in comparing your favourite primarchs and demons, like ADB said it is just a big waste of time (because we all know, in the end Corax is the coolest of them all :ph34r:).

 

I expected here some discussions about the meeting between Lorgar and Magnus on the planet of sorcerers and the presence of Magnus at the traitor primarch meeting so short after Isstvan. I kind of missed Magnus his big moment of pledging allegiance to chaos, I think? I thought he would be still licking his wounds on the planet of sorcerers. Perhaps I should be rereading the end of A Thousand Sons.

[Castiel]

(because we all know, in the end Corax is the coolest of them all :)).

 

*cough* Sanguinius *cough* :ph34r:

[Watch-commander Albus]

Possesed? I thought his abilities were enhanced by the Chaos Powers, but he retained his personality to the end. Maybe I'll have to cross check...

 

I thought that his vision was clouded by the powers of chaos, or something. At least that is what it said more or less in Collected Visions.

[Reyner]

Thought Aurelian was a great read, I couldn't put it down. I finished it in a day it had plenty of memorable moments (one that got me was the bolt pistol in the mouth, knocking out 3 teeth) decent fight scenes applenty and plenty of fluids "pissing" B) out!

[Lord Tharand]

I thought Aurelian was a killer read. Well worth the price of admission.

 

Ref Fulgrim: I like that he was possessed by a daemon. It makes his fall to chaos far more tragic and him not being a willing participate. He's forced to watch what this daemon does in his name and body forever.

[DarKnight]

I somewhat agree about Fulgrim's daemon possession being a "cop out" to an extent, but i think it helps to illustrate the threat that Chaos and Daemons poses to even someone as powerful as a primarch. As far as Horus, the Early HH books to seem to blend the notion that there is some sort of Daemonic influence within him, but far less overt than Fulgrim's.

[2000AD]

Leaving aside the issue of the Bloodthirster (and FWIW I dont agree with the view that the lore is constantly open to fluctuating interpretation..... if you go down that path then things start to get very silly)....... as stated previously I felt the book started well but the fight scenes seemed more of an attempt to jazz up a book which due to 'ahem'.... constraints..... was very short. An attempt to throw in some action before reaching the 1230 word limit! This is my main gripe with the book..... a good start but superficial feel to it from then on.

 

IMO what has been lacking so far in the HH series is more about the relationships between the primarchs and between the primarchs and the emperor.

 

I understand that the emperor has an air of mystery to him but there is so much background to 4OK that I feel some snippets from the man himself would make gold reading material.

 

For £30 I demand excellence above and beyond what I can get from a regular £7 HH novel...... good ol fashioned value for money...... and in that IMO it failed.

 

If I go into a supermarket and see a lasagne priced at 4 x the amount of the others and 1/3 of the size....... it better be pretty damn special.

[Marshal Rohr]

This is why we can't have nice things. People insult the only author to post here regularly.

[Pulse]

Yeh i agree with M2C!!

 

*everyone looks at Pulse*

 

"What? I only argued with ADB a few times.... 2000AD was worse, shoot him!"

 

*Pulse flees the scene*

 

Edit: Spelling.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

seems like an interesting read to me, seems like the warmaster is just a puppet in the end (as are all humans used by chaos) but that lorgar is the only willing puppet.

[Legatus]

This is why we can't have nice things. People insult the only author to post here regularly.

Graham McNeill was on here briefly, but I think I chased him off...

[Iron Lord]

This is why we can't have nice things. People insult the only author to post here regularly.

 

Authors posting regularly on forums is a little unusual- I'm told Karen Traviss did that a lot- and it ended up very badly.

 

Hopefully the B&C's politer than places like stardestroyer.net in that respect.

 

It's nice to see the interesting things A D-B says about the creative process at Black Library- and I'd hate to see that end because of conflicts with aggressive fans.

[Phoebus]

Well said, Watch-commander Albus.

 

For my money, "Aurelian" was easily one of the best (if not the best) single story set in the Horus Heresy.

 

Youre damn right I was expecting something exceptional...... and dont you forget it..... I AM THE CUSTOMER.

 

So instead of being unable to accept criticism and attempting to wrote long waffling retorts....... take this..... YOU MADE YOUR BED AND NOW YOU LIE IN IT.

 

If you think what I wrote was "vicious" then that just shows that you lack backbone.

 

Whatever it is that you just wrote, 2000AD, it hardly qualifies as criticism...

 

I recognize a lot of ADB's retort. Like him I find it very hard to understand just how some of you people read the HH books.

 

If I understood it right, the base premise of this thread is: "OMG, how can Lorgar beat the strongest amongst the Blood Thirsters if he is unable to put up a decent fight with Corax." Well, that is rather sad if that is all that you carried away with after reading Aurelian. Someone here on the forums (or was it on another website) stated that Fulgrim was a bad book because "Fulgrim is the most awesome word-fighter of the Imperium and there was no fancy sword-play by Fulgrim in the book." Perhaps I am deceiving myself, but whenever my wife asks if those "space marine books" are only about shooting and fighting, I tell her that they are about much more than that. For one thing, these books are about betrayal, deceit and loyalty, about the psychology of transhuman and de facto invincible living beings, about facing a reality where magic (or Chaos) overpowers human progress and science, about the great themes of human mythology transplanted into a fantastic and futuristic setting, and so much more.

 

I know that some people just read these novels as a supplement and background for the tabletop game. Well, that is OK, and I understand that in the tabletop game you could weigh off characters by comparing their stats or weapon load-out or whatever. But the Horus Heresy is not table top (at least not until Forge World puts out enough models for it). So, small word of advice, there is no use at all in comparing your favourite primarchs and demons, like ADB said it is just a big waste of time (because we all know, in the end Corax is the coolest of them all :yes:).

EDIT:

 

*cough*Lion!*cough*

 

I expected here some discussions about the meeting between Lorgar and Magnus on the planet of sorcerers and the presence of Magnus at the traitor primarch meeting so short after Isstvan. I kind of missed Magnus his big moment of pledging allegiance to chaos, I think? I thought he would be still licking his wounds on the planet of sorcerers. Perhaps I should be rereading the end of A Thousand Sons.

[Sazabi24]

Leaving aside the issue of the Bloodthirster (and FWIW I dont agree with the view that the lore is constantly open to fluctuating interpretation..... if you go down that path then things start to get very silly)....... as stated previously I felt the book started well but the fight scenes seemed more of an attempt to jazz up a book which due to 'ahem'.... constraints..... was very short. An attempt to throw in some action before reaching the 1230 word limit! This is my main gripe with the book..... a good start but superficial feel to it from then on.

 

IMO what has been lacking so far in the HH series is more about the relationships between the primarchs and between the primarchs and the emperor.

 

I understand that the emperor has an air of mystery to him but there is so much background to 4OK that I feel some snippets from the man himself would make gold reading material.

 

For £30 I demand excellence above and beyond what I can get from a regular £7 HH novel...... good ol fashioned value for money...... and in that IMO it failed.

 

If I go into a supermarket and see a lasagne priced at 4 x the amount of the others and 1/3 of the size....... it better be pretty damn special.

 

So... why in the world do you even read 40k novels? that's one of the most important aspects of 40k.

 

also, please shut up about the cost. You bought exactly what was advertised. Many people would pat 3-4 times what you payed to get a copy of Aurelian

[MagicMan]

The cost doesn't really have anything to do with the story anyway.

 

 

I didn't pick up Aurelian (though i really wanted to) because i couldnt bring myself to spend £30 on a small novel. But what do you expect? It a limited edition piece. You must've known that before you bought it.

 

 

 

 

Anyway! Back to revealing juicy tidbits of ADB's work for the tight-arses like me who didn't fork out... :D

[The Siren]

Hi there I'm new here. I was reading this discussion and I felt like adding my 2 cents to the whole fulgrim possession. Like a couple of you that have stated your opinion used to not like the whole possession thing but then I kinda decided to think of it from a different stand point and think of it more as the Night Hunter dual personality thing. Fulgrim almost doesn't exist anymore demon is Fulgrim now. And to me the demon is every evil about fulgrim( like the evil personality of the night hunter.) I may be rambling to much and what I'm saying may make no sense at all so sorry if I'm just wasting time. Please don't scold me :D

[Watch-commander Albus]

Hi there I'm new here. I was reading this discussion and I felt like adding my 2 cents to the whole fulgrim possession. Like a couple of you that have stated your opinion used to not like the whole possession thing but then I kinda decided to think of it from a different stand point and think of it more as the Night Hunter dual personality thing. Fulgrim almost doesn't exist anymore demon is Fulgrim now. And to me the demon is every evil about fulgrim( like the evil personality of the night hunter.) I may be rambling to much and what I'm saying may make no sense at all so sorry if I'm just wasting time. Please don't scold me ;)

 

Good theory.

 

I do not fully agree though. I think Fulgrim is really possessed by a demon, but I agree that the demon delights in triggering and using every evil and bad character trait of Fulgrim.

 

Anyhow, the part I did not like that much about the book Fulgrim was the apparent ease by which the Emperor's Children are corrupted. Okay, Fabius Bile messed with there neuro-receptors, but still it went a bit too fast for me. Of course, the book did not manage very well to give me an idea of the extent of Fabius Bile's corruption at the time of Isstvan. There are also other issues I have with that book, I did not like the Emperor's Children bits a lot (which is a problem if you're reading an Emperor's Children book ;) ), at first they were all too perfect (really, the author went over the top a bit with stressing that point) and after Isstvan they were just too corrupted (and too fast as well). I always imagined that Chaos would be like a slow cancer carefully but thoroughly eating away your sanity. And not "Hello, I was still the perfect space marine yesterday, but now I am Slaanesh's b*tch."

 

(The Iron Hands were really cool in that book though!)

[Billuriye]

They were too perfect ? More like they were trying too hard to be perfect. Even before Slaanesh's influence the legion was desperate and obviously overcompensating. McNeil delivered that fine i think.

[Watch-commander Albus]

They were too perfect ? More like they were trying too hard to be perfect. Even before Slaanesh's influence the legion was desperate and obviously overcompensating. McNeil delivered that fine i think.

 

Okay, perhaps I read/interpreted that wrongly. But, if I remember well, at some parts the descriptions went something along the lines of "they fought like a perfect orchestrated dance where waves of heavy fire, assault and support were balanced like a clockwork." I understood things like that really as "look how perfect this legion is." It can be that I am just biased against the purple marines, of course.

[Gunslinger87]

I thought fulgrim was probably one of the best HH books out there. In fact the reason why I thought so was because of how the fall to chaos was handled. You thought it was too fast? It was probably the longest HH book so far and GM made sure you knew exactly why they were susceptible to being turned. I also find it tragic that Fulgrim is basically no more... tough luck... sometimes it just goes bad... Ferrus Manus also died before we even had a good glimpse into his character. Thats the tragedy of the Horus Heresy and the point these books are so much more interesting than most 40K.

 

As for how AD-B handled it in Aurelian, I thought that was great. It also suggests that Lorgar may have some plan for Fugrim. Otherwise he wouldn't be so adamant his brother still exists somewhere. Who knows, by the time the duel with Guilliman happens, perhaps Fulgrim will be on par with the like of Argel Tal in a "union" with his daemon. Perhaps after being humiliated by another primarch, or even a lesser space marine... the daemon will figure out it need him. Who knows... and that's the point.

 

I think Fulgrim is much more interesting (and not even talking about Lorgar) than Horus right now. And this should be the Horus Heresy after all... Horus needs some more character... more scenes... and more transition into chaos. Just my opinion.

[Watch-commander Albus]

I thought fulgrim was probably one of the best HH books out there. In fact the reason why I thought so was because of how the fall to chaos was handled. You thought it was too fast? It was probably the longest HH book so far and GM made sure you knew exactly why they were susceptible to being turned. I also find it tragic that Fulgrim is basically no more... tough luck... sometimes it just goes bad... Ferrus Manus also died before we even had a good glimpse into his character. Thats the tragedy of the Horus Heresy and the point these books are so much more interesting than most 40K.

 

OK, I think I have to reread Fulgrim then. What you described wasn't what I carried away with after reading the book at all. I had the impression that the corruption of the Sons of Horus was slower and subtler.

[Gunslinger87]

I thought fulgrim was probably one of the best HH books out there. In fact the reason why I thought so was because of how the fall to chaos was handled. You thought it was too fast? It was probably the longest HH book so far and GM made sure you knew exactly why they were susceptible to being turned. I also find it tragic that Fulgrim is basically no more... tough luck... sometimes it just goes bad... Ferrus Manus also died before we even had a good glimpse into his character. Thats the tragedy of the Horus Heresy and the point these books are so much more interesting than most 40K.

 

OK, I think I have to reread Fulgrim then. What you described wasn't what I carried away with after reading the book at all. I had the impression that the corruption of the Sons of Horus was slower and subtler.

 

I'm not saying I'm absolutely right... thats just how I felt when I read it. And keep in mind I had no idea how it was going to end up having not read Collected Visions until after Tales of Heresy.

 

And kudos for the way you responded. Most people just argue back why THEY are right and so on. Which is why we don't have A D-B on here anymore :-( I really do hope that if you re-read it, you will like the book a bit more. I've read them all so far including Promethean Sun and Aurelian and it definitely ranks right up there in my opinion.

 

 

PS What I was really talking about was Horus himself by the way. The corruption of the luna wolves/sons of horus was pretty subtle... but Horus was turned with one wound and one scene... and voila, came back corrupt. (obviously oversimplifying it a LOT) but with Fulgrim... that came slowly and from the deepest ambitions and insecurities of his heart. You can't even tell in that book where it really started to go wrong. I loved the fact that I was hoping for the best for these guys and that was even after they started doing weird things... then those things got even weirder and you went: "hmmmm" until there was slaughter and orgies and who knows what... Like the floor caving in beneath you. You still want to like these guys... but can't justify it even to yourself.

 

Kinda like the thousand sons for me... Much more likeable than the Space Wolves were in their own book... but once chaos starts weaving itself into your fates....