land speeder storm

[greatcrusade08]

[center; background-image:url(http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/hq2.gif); background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 8px 2px; padding: 12px 8px 12px 8px; border: 1px solid #DDD; margin-left: 0 auto; text-align: left; color: #fff; text-indent:50px; font-size:130%; width:50%;">Land speeder storm tactica[/center]

the land speeder storm is without a doubt my favourite unit from the 5th edition space marine codex, but then im biased towards all things scouts.
there is always alot of discussion weighing the pros and cons of storms in army lists, thankfully ive seen an increase in usage of the "melta torpedo" varient, which tells me others are seeing thier better side.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/hq2.gif); background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 8px 2px; padding: 12px 8px 12px 8px; border: 1px solid #DDD; margin-left: 0 auto; text-align: left; color: #fff; text-indent:50px; font-size:130%; width:50%;">unit building

the hardest part of gaming is getting the army build just right, not only do you want the unit to be effective, but you want it to mesh with the army list as a whole
ive seen alot of different 'builds' to LSs and scout squads, but there are certain rules i personally work to.

1: always give them a dedicated 5 man scout squad, the sheer number of times ive seen people argue they will combat squad a unit of scouts is staggering.
whilst it does make some sense (in that its cheaper to combat squad) it does mean you cannot outflank the speeder with the scouts inside.
its quite confusing game rule mechanics, but since you cannot combat squad before deploying the unit you cannot choose to embark a combat squad on an outflanking speeder.

2: storm teams work better in dedicated roles, flexibility is good but you sacrifice thier ability to perform thier main job in order to cater for the 'what ifs'
example would be running a MM storm for taking out vehicles, yet giving the sergeant a combi flamer and power sword wouldnt help in thier main role.

i am a little bit more flexible in that second point, but only to the degree that its possible to cater for other eventualities without negating your main use, example would be adding meltabombs or a powerfist to an anit ifantry based unit to give it extra oomph vs vehicles.

3: match the weapons: rule of thumb is to give a combi-weapon to the sergeant that matches the weapon on the storm.
multi-melta = combi-melta
heavy flamer = combi-flamer
heavy bolter/assault cannon = heavy bolter scout

the best advice i can give is figure out the role you want the storm to fulfill and give the storm the weapon needed to do the job. then let the storm dictate the squad you take to go inside.

the most commonly used storm builds are
1: the tri melta storm aka the "melta torpedo"
LSS with MM @65pts
5 scouts with combi-melta and meltabombs @90 points, add a powerfist to taste.

2: dual flamer storm
LSS with heavy flamer @60pts
5 scouts with combi-flamer and powerfist @110 points, add meltabombs to taste
i have seen builds with combi-flamer and power weapon, although id say if you want the Pw drop the combi so you get the +1A for dual ccws.

3: dual HB storm aka "dakka storm"
LSS with HB @50 points
5 scouts with HB @85 points, add upgrades to taste, meltabombs, combi-weapon etc

alpha striking

land speeder storms have the scout USR so are capable of shooting at close rnage and assaulting in the first turn.
of course it only really works if you get the first turn, otherwise my advice would be to outflank them.

Deploying and scout moving:
The scout move means they can move 24" in the pre game scout move phase.
to make best use of this you have to get the deployment right. sadly they dont have infiltrate which means you have to deploy them with your normal forces.
always deploy them as far forward in your DZ as you can, if your running just the one storm deploy it centrally, for two deploy them eqidistant from centre (about 12" each from the centrepoint), three would be one central and the other two eqidistant.
its an approximation but it allows you to reach most parts of the battlefield with scout moves and first turn 12" movement.

assuming pitched battle set-up, and for these examples assuming melta storms vs a mechanised opponent

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/1a.jpg
the two melta storms set up evenly spaced, approx 24" from each other and 24" from each table edge.
if your opponent deploys on one flank both storms can still reach them

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/1b.jpg
here your opponent has gone for a flank attack, hoping to deny many of your units on the opposite side from joining the battle and therefore hitting half your army with the whole of his.
so you scout move your storms to knock out his armour early on.
the 3 vehicles at the front could be predators, vindies, or razorbacks/rhinos, all castling up around the land raider behind them carrying something very gribbly indeed.
the scout move limitation is only that you dont come to within 12" of the enemy, yet in your first turn move the storm can move 12", the scout sqaud may disembark 2" and assault 6".
So although your opponent has castled up its entirely possible that you can still get to it.

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/1c.jpg
here you have 2 combi-meltas (BS4) and two multimeltas (BS3) all within short range.
my rule of thumb is to always shoot the combi-weapons first, if you get a good shot off then the multi-meltas can be used to target another unit, and given it has the longer range youll probably be getting 2D6 pen too.
in this pic assuming the shots dont destroy thier targets, all four vehciles can be multi-charged by the two scout squads, aslong as the meltabombs hit the lan raider krak grenades are very good at rear armour 10 and whats best is that since your opponent has yet to move, they all hit automatically.

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/006-1.jpg
http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/batreps/008-1.jpg
here are some before and after pictures from a recent game, my opponent tried to castle up but my two melta storms and my scout bikes hit everything leaving his whole mechanised army in tatters.
It should be noted i made a mistake in that deployment, i should have sent both storms on the flanks and used the scout bikes against all three predators at the front.
we live and learn ;)

Straight at them:
http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/2b.jpg
in this diagram the opponent has set up his battlewagons so he can drive straight at your army, here ive shown the storms crossing each others paths and the reason for this, is that if you move more than 12" you get a cover save shouldyour opponent steal the initiative.
if this happens they will probably still die, but will require twice theguns to do so, your scouts ay still be in good enough shape to complete thier mission in the next turn.
again carfeul placement and shooting order could mean all three targets can be hit with these two 'units' both in shooting and assault

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/spearhead1.jpg
http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/spearhead2.jpg
http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/spearhead3.jpg
here ive shown the spearhead scenario, deploy your LSS as far forward as possible as close to the middle as possible (12")
even if your opponent deploys his more valued mech units at the rear its possible to still reach them with a 24" scout move, just remember to skirt the 12" no go zone

alternate uses

LSs excel at alpha strikes, but a good (great IMO) may be able to deny them thier main use, by reserving or deploying thier own scouts or sacrificial units to prevent your movement shenanigans.
also if your opponent is using a DE army with vect who steals initiative on a 4+ you might feel unsafe about commiting them to an alpha strike (or you dont win first turn or have DOW deployment)
the land speeder storms can outflank and come on later to target troublesome vehicles or units.
if you building a storm for other purposes being able to outflank is great, there are people who use them as late game objective grabbers, once your opponent starts to commit his main units he wont want to turn them around to deal with a storm squad at his rear, especially if youve the rest of your forces knocking at his door
in this scenario a flame storm build can be great at targetting lootas, dev squads and artillery
the dakka build although restricted by having moved are great at objective grabbing.
stationary they kick out quite a few shots (being open topped) and if you 'park' them near objectives in terrain when they get shot down the scouts tumble out into cover and can keep on shooting. if equipped with cloaks thier cover saves can be increased, giving them greater durability.

scout equipment

ive already covered the synergy between the sergeant and the storm itself, but what about the squad, what should we equip them with?
with the exception of the dakka builds its unwise to take a heavy weapon, storms are mobile and that heavy wont see much action.

the options are, bolters, snipers, ccw/pistol and shotguns.
beng heavy the snipers arent great for much else than the dakka type builds, although given your aim is to pump out shots bolters would serve a better purpose there.
bolters in general are pretty nice weapons, but unless your running a dakka or "drive by" build they will hamper any assaults you want to make.
for clarification a "drive by" build is similar to a dakka build but yourintent is to move 6" every turn and lay down fire, this goes well with bolter or shotguns, but also allows you to use other weapons on the storm such as a heavy flamer, you literally psh forward 6" a turn and lay down fire at infantry units.
the last two options are ones that would interest a more competative minded general, if you want t maximise shooting damage the shotguns are your friends, being S4 they can be used to shoot rear armour of vehciles hoping for the odd glance to stunlock an intended target (at Ap- its -3 on the damage table for glances, so you cant get better than a weapon destroyed result.. unless they are open topped)
shotguns can also be used on anti infantry units, essentially they are I11 attacks, and good vs units that have higher initiative like eldar and thier S&M cousins, kroot hounds and some daemon units.
my favourite fall backs are the ccws and pistols, you still get the S4 shots, although not as many but the extra atatcks are always nice.. giving 5 scouts more attacks than a flat footed ten man tactical squad.

the main reason i use ccws is becuase i use storms to take down vehicles, which means for the most part the enemy charges me, if hes I4 i get 10-11 attacks back and can take a few chaps with me n the way down.

cerberus launchers

this wargear is a hidden gem for the storm squad, a -2ld modifer is very good, infact if you can combine a charge with a more powerful unit then you only have to win combat by a small margin and you can make the squad run
there is some RAW discussion on the whether or not 2 or more storms cerberus launchers can be stacked, the wording is unclear, and despite my own opinions that they do, ive honestly never been in a postion to use them as such.
also rememebr the -2Ld works as soon as you charg the enemy, so space wolf players with counter charge have to roll at a lower leadership, really useful against long fang units who seem to have more attacks than they really should.

jamming beacon

In all my games ive only ever used these things against daemon players, that being said they worked beautifully
they create a 12" area infront of your army where daemons cannot deepstrike without greater risk of scatter, and with scout moves you can place them anywhere you like as the enemy doesnt start on the board
http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/blah-1.jpg
heres a game i had vs khorne daemons, i used infiltrate to deploy my units in a corner with no terrain (other than what i was deployed in) and scouted the storms to create a screen infront of my army (was using flame storms with shotguns at the time)
my opponent had to deploy outside of a second turn charge range so he didnt scatter off from the jamming beacons, essenitally i got two rounds of firing before he even got close enough to charge.
we played twice, first game i tabled him with no casualties, second time i took minimal losses and again tabled him.

final thoughts

its important to know that storm squads are pretty much suicide squads when used aggressively, but they rarely fail to cause damage.
this however creates some other tactical uses, if for example i use a tri melta storm to knock down a transport, and a tooled up vangaurd squad disembarks.
if i elect to charge them, i may cause a casualty or two but they would kill my unit, consoldiate and move towards my lines in thier next turn (5 scouts arent that durable).
if i remain stationary i make them charge me (im about two inches away from them), when they then beat me they only get thier consolidation move.. meaning in your turn two the nasty assault unit is only a few inches way from thier DZ allowing you more time to shoot them down.

there are one or two more aspects to storm teams that need discussing:
beyond Ics giving them better abilities, vulkan twin linking thier weapons, tigarius asllowing them reserve re-rolls, shrike giving them fleet etc scouts are pretty autonomous units, however given a teleport homer a storm team can be used to bring down terminators in the second turn.
of course this is largely dependant on them still being alive, rolling for reserves and making sure the storms jamming beacons dont counteract the teleport homers.

[Meatman]

Holy -long tactica post- Batman.

 

Very nice, very well written article, mate.

Just a thing to remind all storm users is that that -Ld modifier stacks, and works on ALL leadership tests in that assault phase. So it affects rules like counter attack. Or force weapon activation, or other psychic powers.

 

Land speeder storm, easily the most under rated units in the codex. If *only* it were a dedicated transport!

[Sir Blayse]

Nice work. Glad you mentioned you can't outflank if you combat squad them. I had forgotten about that rule. Thanks.

[Brother Tual]

LSS borne scouts are perfect for entrapment.

 

You can double team a LR or rhino (or anything) with two teams and surround the transport. Blow it up with grendaes and watch EW characters and otherwise invincible units be removed by 10 scouts in one assault phase. It is not overly difficult to do as most plyers deploy these types of killer units forward and rarely bubble wrap. Make full use of that 6 inch assault move. You dont have to assault in a cluster like GC08 does.. Spread out. You dont have to abide by the 'no closere than 1' rule in the assault phase.. In GC08's above picture he might have been able to get some bikes around the back of the pred and angle the bases longways potentially making it hard to deploy the terminators - it is hard to see from the angles. It is common to deploy a heavy mech list in a cluster like the BA player did. Make them pay hard. (In the example, GC08 blew up the LR with a meltagun so it is realy a mute point but if he was forced to go in with the MB, the bikes might have played a part- The BA player couldnt deploy infront because of the pred and he cant deploy off the table edge.. the only side would have been the bike side and if the long bases blocked this off.. dead unit.. big reward... tabled turn in 1 before even moving!)

 

If you intend to do this.. DONT SHOOT AT THE TARGET. You cant risk forcing a unit to disembark in the shooting phase if your intention is to entrap. It is very risky against LR because you rely on 2 MB attacks to kill a LR but the rewards are there and only increased if you bag 5 TH+SS and lysander in the process.

 

Against AV10 (most transports) shooting at the target has no gain. Your grenades will crack the armour and break it open, there is no point in getting in a weapon destroyed or any other result in before this at the risk of failing to entrap the contents because you accidently blew it up first!

 

You 'can' get partial entrapment using only one LSS and unit by moving the LSS as close as possible (1 inch) and using the assault move to surround as much of a tank as possible. Only several models will be able to be deployed when the transport dies. Not super effective but good to remember as a freebie if you dont use 2 x LSS. May as well increase your alpha strike gains for 0 extra risk.

 

You can get entrapment during the game but it is alot harder. For starters your LSS have to be alive and enemy pace reduces the volume effectiveness of grenades (4+ or 6+ to hit) Dont discount it though. Handy when using outflank and target some gimp unit sitting in a rhino bunker or similar on the base line near a flank. Entrap it for the win.

[Meatman]

The BA player couldnt deploy infront because of the pred and he cant deploy off the table edge.. the only side would have been the bike side and if the long bases blocked this off.. dead unit.. big reward... tabled turn in 1 before even moving!)

 

Eh. Not cool. No-one wants to play a game where you don't even get to move a model.

 

The entrapment rule is a pretty major no-no for me to try to do in friendly games.

 

Valid and effective tactic yes, but completely uncalled for in friendly games. :o

[Brother Tual]

Fair call

 

Valid and effective tactic

One more tool in the tool box. You dont have to use it.

[DarkGuard]

I agree with Meatman here, entrapment might be a good, valid, competitive tactic, but it's happened to me before and it's no fun, I certainly wouldn't want to do it someone else. More than anything it just appears to be a cheap way get one up on your opponent.

 

@GC08, good tactica, as always. I've read all your Scout tacticas and they're all enlightening, and hopefully this will go some way to convincing others to play with Scouts and Storms.

[greatcrusade08]

thaks fellas.. i think ill add a section on entrapment, becuase i am trying to cater for everyone from friendly to competative. ill probably add a note to that effect though

[DarkGuard]

Also, just crossed my mind GC08, but would you like me to put a link to this thread in the C:SM 101? I'm pretty sure I may have already done it with your Scouts, plus a few other units have links to them, so if someone is having a quick look at the LSS entry they've got the link there as well for some more detailed advice on how to run them.

[greatcrusade08]

sure sounds good.

[DarkGuard]

Done, should hopefully prove very helpful to people looking at that topic.

 

I feel I should also mention something wise about the gameplay of Storms, but I've only used the tri-melta torpedo and you've covered it all already :P.

 

Completely agree with the use of combat weapons on those squads, while shotguns are cool combat weapons are just better in this situation as they benefit the squad in combat better if you charge the guys coming out of a melta'd tank, or as you said if you get charged. You raise a fantastic point that it is often better in this instance to receive the charge and let them consolidate when it's your turn next. I'm also intrigued as to why you shoot the combi-melta before the multi-melta, I've always done it the other way around.

 

Now this is making me want to dust off my Scouts and proxy Speeder again, or at least to get my Terminator/Scout army out again.

[Brother Tual]

he does it that way because of range and shooting rules...

 

The MM still retains a 24" range and can hit a second tank on probable side armour further away. You might not get the 2D6 to penetrate but it is better using the MM to blow up a transport and shooting the combimelta at the contents.

 

You have to shoot the scouts at the unit you intend to charge, you can shoot at a transport and charge the contents if you so choose which will probably be only against GEQ. Its all about keeping options open. Being close doesnt mean you have to commit to the closest target.

 

As for entrapment, there is no reason not to. If you dont want to, fine, but you may as well not take and lascannons and blow up your friends vinidactor first turn just incase you hurt their feelings. I assure you your friend will get over it and probably learn alot from being subject to such a move. Dont be nasty about it but you can show them why such a deployment is crap..

 

Using GC08's example, "Mate, you made a mistake in your deployment, I will show you why... zoom zoom.. boom. Do you want to start again?" whos feelings are hurt? They will be happy you showed them something they can keep. Happy Days.

 

Its not cheap. It is hard to do against someone who deploys properly or moves transports well. Labelling scouts as a 'cheap way of getting one up' is intersting. :P Well done GC08, scouts are now cheese. :)

[greatcrusade08]

I'm also intrigued as to why you shoot the combi-melta before the multi-melta, I've always done it the other way around.

 

The MM still retains a 24" range and can hit a second tank on probable side armour further away. You might not get the 2D6 to penetrate but it is better using the MM to blow up a transport and shooting the combimelta at the contents.

 

You have to shoot the scouts at the unit you intend to charge, you can shoot at a transport and charge the contents if you so choose which will probably be only against GEQ. Its all about keeping options open. Being close doesnt mean you have to commit to the closest target.

 

your target and usage usually determines the order of things, its hard thing to quantify in black and white but ill try.

i primarily build LSS melta teams in order to take down AV14, usually the contents are too tough to charge with a 5 man scout squad. In this case ill shoot at my primary target with the combi-melta, knowing if i dont kill it i can charge with the meltabombs, the MM gives me the extra range on an extra target if the combi-melta does the job (or immobilises it or whatnot), given youve got a double pen range of 12", chances are youll be able to knock out a second target.. the other way around the combi-melta has a 6" range and therefore your limited as to what to shoot at if not your original target.

 

all that is assuming i dont want to charge the contents.. if i did want to charge the contents then it might be worth firing the MM at the transports first as id then get pre assault shooting against the disembarking unit, remembering the few pistol shots aswell as the combi on my intended target.. every little helps after all

 

Using GC08's example, "Mate, you made a mistake in your deployment, I will show you why... zoom zoom.. boom. Do you want to start again?" whos feelings are hurt? They will be happy you showed them something they can keep. Happy Days.

 

Its not cheap. It is hard to do against someone who deploys properly or moves transports well. Labelling scouts as a 'cheap way of getting one up' is intersting. :devil: Well done GC08, scouts are now cheese.

 

the chap i playes intends to reserve everything in his next game, as it happens that game went the distance as he had all his razorbacks and assualt troops in reserve.

infact he could have used his own scout moves to block me (he won the scout move roll off) but decided not to use them in that way.

experience is the key, most people i play competatively dont know how to deal with them.

perhaps i should stop writing articles, it probably doesnt help me in the long term :P

 

scouts will never be cheese, even these storm shenanigans only work in certain situations against certain players

i like storms in my scout army becuase even if i dont get game changing alpha strikes, the deployment of them before the rest of my army can affect my opponents deplyment, in effect i can dupe him into thinking ill deploy a certain way and then do something different and redploy the stroms during the scout move.

thier biggest strength is pre game psychological warfare :P

[Meatman]

Labelling scouts as a 'cheap way of getting one up' is intersting. :)

 

I believe Darkguard was referring to the surrounding transports rule, not scouts ;)

 

experience is the key, most people i play competatively dont know how to deal with them.

perhaps i should stop writing articles, it probably doesnt help me in the long term :P

 

I do believe I've said it before, but even with the experience and units to counter this, it is surprisingly hard. At best it would be possible to stop a couple units. But because of how fast storms can scout move, it's almost impossible to block them off.

 

Best advice I can offer, is to steal the initiative!

 

Edit: Spelling

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for those replies on the combi-melta/multi-melta priority issue, I'll keep that in mind next time I play a melta torpedo :).

 

@ GC08, I've always played the storm almost one dimensionally, and if I don't get first turn I'll chuck it in reserve. However I'll look into using it to force my opponent to deploy differently with the ability to redeploy, should be interesting.

 

@ Brother Taul, in relation to entrapment, I just feel that there's something different about it, like it's not in the spirit of the game, almost an exploitation. A Vindicator being knocked out first turn by a lascannon is something that is normal, but Scouts surrounding a Land Raider and killing the Terminators inside because they can't stand near them when it blows up doesn't sound so fluffy, I'm pretty sure the Terms would just barge their way through. Again, like most tactics is a personal thing, I know I won't be using it any time soon.

 

EDIT: Meatman's right, I wasn't referring to the Scouts there, as good as they are, but rather the entrapment.

[Brother Tual]

Its all good. You know I like to stir the pot.

 

Its fine, you dont have to use this tactic.

 

It may seem like a silly rule but it is there. I think it is a good reward for those willing to take the risk. Its a good thing making a death star unit use caution when scouts are out and about.

 

@ Idaho

??

[DarkGuard]

@ Idaho

??

 

Ooops, sorry GC08, energy sapped from essay deadlines, fixed :)

[greatcrusade08]

the trapped tactic can work very well if you combine say a ten man scout bike squad with the LSS scouts and swarm the land raider.. just hope it doesnt explode

[Kierdale]

GC08, with infiltrators not being allowed to assault in the first turn in VI Edition, how do you see this changing the Melta Torpedo/LSS's use?

 

EDIT:

How about this: LSS w/MM, sergeant with combi-M and 4 scouts with bolters (rather than BP&CCW). The LSS pops the tank and the scouts then rapid fire whoever piles out. If the LSS fails to pop the tank then at least the sergeant can try with the combi-M.

 

I wonder if it might be worth adding in a ML (snap-fire a krak if the MM fails) or a heavy bolter (again, only snap firing...).

[Hellios]

GC08, with infiltrators not being allowed to assault in the first turn in VI Edition, how do you see this changing the Melta Torpedo/LSS's use?

 

EDIT:

How about this: LSS w/MM, sergeant with combi-M and 4 scouts with bolters (rather than BP&CCW). The LSS pops the tank and the scouts then rapid fire whoever piles out. If the LSS fails to pop the tank then at least the sergeant can try with the combi-M.

 

I wonder if it might be worth adding in a ML (snap-fire a krak if the MM fails) or a heavy bolter (again, only snap firing...).

 

I think that this will really depend on a lot of other changes to the rules and how people play... However any reliable melta that can quickly get close to enemy armour should be useful as it seems that melta is now more likely to wreck/destroy vehicles than get any other result.

[greatcrusade08]

i intend to update everything once i have assimilated 6th.. however LSS storm teams are not infiltrators, so that rule doesnt apply here.

infact if im correct the new rules give them a slightly greater threat range with the new 2D6 style charges.

[*Furyou Miko]

They can't assault if the vehicle moves more than 6" though, because they can't get out.

[greatcrusade08]

They can't assault if the vehicle moves more than 6" though, because they can't get out.

 

oh yeah someone did tell me that, but it went in one ear and is still travelling :(.

from what i can tell scout moves are still the same, LSS can get to just over 12" before turn one, its still possible to move 6" and get the charge (only need a 6 on the two dice)

 

also does the same rule apply to open topped? i need to double check that one

[*Furyou Miko]

OK. Scout is the same, except you don't have to roll dangerous terrain (you redeploy "anywhere within 6"" for infantry, or 12" for vehicles). Explicit caveat that you can't charge on the first turn if you Scout.

 

Open Topped just says "Open-topped Vehicles have the Assault Vehicle special rule". The Assault Vehicle special rule just states that you can assault on the turn you leave a vehicle (whether through disembarkation or vehicle destruction).

 

So, the only way to get a First Turn Charge with scouts in a LSS is by going Flat Out and ending your movement in a piece of Difficult or Dangerous Terrain, then rolling a 1 to become Immobilised which is upgraded to Destroyed because of Skimmers Moving Fast, then relying on your Scouts surviving the crash... ^^; overly complicated, but doable.

 

DEldar have it easier, they can suicide-ram their Raiders to get into charge range.

[greatcrusade08]

Explicit caveat that you can't charge on the first turn if you Scout.

 

well that fills in a blank for me, ta muchly, i thought it was just outflank and infiltrate.

 

on a light hearted note, i reckon someone at GW hates scout armies, all my useful little tactics and builds have been nerfed with 5th, looks like im starting from scratch