Company Size

[Champion Cliesthenes]

I have a dream to make a full pre-heresy DA company. Does anyone have any clue on how many marines that would be and of what squad type? thanks ;)

[Grimdarkness]

I don't think there were set numbers if you go by TFH Argal tal's company was only 3 chapter's at monarchia IIRC.

[Legatus]

IIRC in one of the Horus Heresy short stories ("Call of the Lion?") the Dark Angels Legion is described as being organised into "Chapters" of a thousand, each consisting of ten companies of a hundred. However, the unit layout of those companies is not described, IIRC.

[Doghouse]

From what I've been told it's one to three hundred marines per chapter/company which are then organised into grand companies.

[Nova_Dew]

From what I've been told it's one to three hundred marines per chapter/company which are then organised into grand companies.

 

All we know is that is that might be the full size of Tra (3rd company) of the SW from Perospero Burns

 

I dont know about the other legions or even if the SW companies vary in size

[Coryphaus 101]

From what I've read/heard my guess on the structure of legions with chapters would be spmething along the lines of this:

Legion of 100,000 marines (average, most of the smaller legions had 80,000, Word Bearers had around 160,000, Ultramarines had around 200,000) organized into 10 chapters of 1,000 each comprising 10 companies of 100. For different legions it was different but for Dark Angels and Blood Angels, two legions of average size that use chapters to organize their troops, I would say this is roughly accurate. So a PH DA army would be the same size as a normal company.

[Watch-commander Albus]

From what I've read/heard my guess on the structure of legions with chapters would be spmething along the lines of this:

Legion of 100,000 marines (average, most of the smaller legions had 80,000, Word Bearers had around 160,000, Ultramarines had around 200,000) organized into 10 chapters of 1,000 each comprising 10 companies of 100. For different legions it was different but for Dark Angels and Blood Angels, two legions of average size that use chapters to organize their troops, I would say this is roughly accurate. So a PH DA army would be the same size as a normal company.

 

I think you messed up your numbers. 10 chapters of a thousand each only adds up to a 10,000 men strong legion...

 

No, if you want it to make sense you either need a 10,000 men strong "grand company" or "chapter." That would give something like this:

 

a Legion: 100,000 Astartes

a Grand Company: 10,000 Astartes

a Chapter: 1,000 Astartes

a Company: 100 Astartes

a Squad: 10 Astartes

 

But that is all derived from the principle that Legions were divided in a hierarchy of base 10. The fluff allows for many different numbers however. What about squads of 6 or 12 men? A "tercio" or "Maurician"-like hierarchy with 3000 men in a company? And we have no clear sight on the structure of cavalry and mobile parts of the legions either, but I can see a lot of different numbers there, like tank squadrons of three or four tanks that form tank battalions of 12 or 16 tanks as a whole. In any case, the possibilities are endless.

[Coryphaus 101]

I think you messed up your numbers. 10 chapters of a thousand each only adds up to a 10,000 men strong legion...

;) Damn numbers. I'm on holidays. Plus I forgot grand companies. ;)

[Vodunius]

According to Collected VIsions Great Company/Grand Company/Wing/Chapter are all alternative names for the 1,000 strong unit. Note in Angels of Darkness Astellan claims to be one of 26 Chapter Masters (this being in the pre-100k times, Gav apparently operating off the original plurality of 10k rather than the later singular)

 

Collected Visions only listed:

2 Battatlions = Chapter etc commanded by an Imperial Commander

Battalion = 5 Companies commanded by a Lieutenant-Commander

Company = 100 Marines commanded by a Captain

 

Personally I'm fond of the original version from WD126

'Legion' = <20 'Chapters'

'Chapter' = 3 Battatlions + 6 Detachments

Battalion = 3 Companies + 3 Detachments + transport pool

Company = 3 Detachments

 

Historical sidenote: the Ultramarines company colours were created for this 9 company system, which is why the 10th company has no colour even tho the original scout minis had trims.

[Legatus]

In "Tales of Heresy" in the story "Call of the Lion", the Dark Angels are present with two Chapters. They have a total of eight Battle Barges between them (known to usually carry three, sometimes four, contemporary companies of 100 men), and in the beginning one of the Battle Barges is described as carrying three company Captains.

 

--> 2 Chapters

 

--> 8 Battle Barges (known to carry about 300 men each)

 

--> 3 Captains per Barge

 

==> In this story the Dark Angels Legion uses Chapters of 1,000 men, each divided into ten Companies of a 100.

[Nova_Dew]

Using the WD 126 model a legion is only 16,800 marines strong maximum if using only Tactical Detachments and 2 stands to a squad but that's not including support and transport and commanders.

 

To bring it up to the new canon you could increase the number of squads per Detachment, have 200+ chapters per legion or a mix of both (or fix my math because I'm sure something went wrong)

 

If you go by 4 squads to a detachment you end up with 360 marines to a company, 5,040 to a chapter and dum dum dum 100,800 marines to a legion! and if you include Dreadnoughts and the rest as so many to a detachment and the marines as specialists you can nock the number down to 100,000

 

 

(edit for other stuff)

[Doghouse]

From what I've been told it's one to three hundred marines per chapter/company which are then organised into grand companies.

 

All we know is that is that might be the full size of Tra (3rd company) of the SW from Perospero Burns

 

I dont know about the other legions or even if the SW companies vary in size

 

I was told those sizes by AD-B when I asked him for some info on Legion organisation a while back. The only difference being that grand companies are known by different names depending on the Legion.

[Vodunius]

Using the WD 126 model a legion is only 16,800 marines strong maximum if using only Tactical Detachments and 2 stands to a squad but that's not including support and transport and commanders.

 

To bring it up to the new canon you could increase the number of squads per Detachment, have 200+ chapters per legion or a mix of both (or fix my math because I'm sure something went wrong)

 

You're maths is spot on, its been a while but I seem to recall the example 'chapter' comes to somethin like 780 marines including all vehicle crews. Personally I favour the 200+ 'chapters' per legion using that system.

[Nova_Dew]

I did a wee bit of math using the 480 (iirc) marine size of Tra as canon then the SW legion is approx 87,360 marines but if the company of Russ is indeed a company since their is mention of a Jarl of the 1st company and seeing that they can take some liberty with naming they could be upto 103,480 marines strong at full strength with out auxiliary troops like tank crews

[Nova_Dew]

From what I've been told it's one to three hundred marines per chapter/company which are then organised into grand companies.

 

All we know is that is that might be the full size of Tra (3rd company) of the SW from Perospero Burns

 

I dont know about the other legions or even if the SW companies vary in size

 

I was told those sizes by AD-B when I asked him for some info on Legion organisation a while back. The only difference being that grand companies are known by different names depending on the Legion.

 

No offence but he ain't told me and until I see the GW book of Canon I'll use what I know we know the DA use the base ten way and we know that the SW have only 13 Great Companies and it depends on when you organise them is it before or after the primarch puts his stamp on them

[Doghouse]

Entirely up to you at the end of the day mate but as the many many many people that know me know I wouldn't make this up and was just trying to be helpful. ;)

 

Whatever system that you use is entirely up to you as nothing is set in stone anymore but as AD-B is on the inside as far as the novels are concerned I'm going to stick with what he told me. B)

[Iron Lord]

According to Collected Visions Great Company/Grand Company/Wing/Chapter are all alternative names for the 1,000 strong unit. Note in Angels of Darkness Astellan claims to be one of 26 Chapter Masters (this being in the pre-100k times, Gav apparently operating off the original plurality of 10k rather than the later singular)

 

In the same book, the number of Chapter Masters in the Heresy era is suggested to be "thousands"- with chapters being 1000 strong:

 

Angels of Darkness

page 21

"I commanded a thousand space marines, just one of many Dark Angels Chapter commanders, and whole worlds fell before our wrath."

page 82

"I was one of several thousand Chapter Masters, proud of my achievements, but no more worthy of His attention than any other."

 

So- fitting very neatly into the present day Collected Visions figure of more than a million marines in the Heresy era (100,000 on average, 20 chapters - 2 million marines)

[Nova_Dew]

According to Collected Visions Great Company/Grand Company/Wing/Chapter are all alternative names for the 1,000 strong unit. Note in Angels of Darkness Astellan claims to be one of 26 Chapter Masters (this being in the pre-100k times, Gav apparently operating off the original plurality of 10k rather than the later singular)

 

In the same book, the number of Chapter Masters in the Heresy era is suggested to be "thousands"- with chapters being 1000 strong:

 

Angels of Darkness

page 21

"I commanded a thousand space marines, just one of many Dark Angels Chapter commanders, and whole worlds fell before our wrath."

page 82

"I was one of several thousand Chapter Masters, proud of my achievements, but no more worthy of His attention than any other."

 

So- fitting very neatly into the present day Collected Visions figure of more than a million marines in the Heresy era (100,000 on average, 20 chapters - 2 million marines)

 

 

Sorry but neither quote proves nothing more than he was a chapter master and that he has commanded thousands of space marines.

Is he one of thousands of chapter masters serving now or from the legions inception? from what I've read space marines see the dead as kind of still there as long as the legion lives so to speak since the gene seed goes on

[TennisBall]

Sorry but neither quote proves nothing more than he was a chapter master and that he has commanded thousands of space marines.

Is he one of thousands of chapter masters serving now or from the legions inception? from what I've read space marines see the dead as kind of still there as long as the legion lives so to speak since the gene seed goes on

 

Astelan's response was to a question about how close he was to the Emperor. Astelan replied that he was one of several thousand chapter masters serving the Emperor. The inference is that he was talking about existing chapter masters as he was stating that he was one of several thousand at the time, no more deserving than any other.

That would also suggest that the marines numbered in the millions. The word several suggests at least three (otherwise the word couple would be used) so several thousand would see 3000 chapter masters as a base figure giving three million marines as a minimum number for the legions combined.

It seems obvious that this "fact" does not sit well at all with the "fact" that ADB gave that legions average 100,000 marines. That would give two million as an upper limit on numbers rather than the three million as a minimum that GT used.

[Legatus]

It seems obvious that this "fact" does not sit well at all with the "fact" that ADB gave that legions average 100,000 marines. That would give two million as an upper limit on numbers rather than the three million as a minimum that GT used.

I would just like to point out that the "ADB fact" is in fact what had been explicitely stated in the Collected Visions artbook which had been the foundation for the Horus Heresy series. And while some of the Horus Heresy books were not that clear on the numbers (some even suggesting the old 10,000 numbers), they have pretty much reached a consensus, in that the Horus Heresy dramatization of the Horus Heresy legend will pretend that Legions had been 100,000 Mariners strong, as opposed to the actual 10,000 per Legion. (See what I did there?)

So if one novel might infer that there had been three million Marines at any point, we can just dismiss that as a misinformed character.

[Nova_Dew]

Sorry but neither quote proves nothing more than he was a chapter master and that he has commanded thousands of space marines.

Is he one of thousands of chapter masters serving now or from the legions inception? from what I've read space marines see the dead as kind of still there as long as the legion lives so to speak since the gene seed goes on

 

Astelan's response was to a question about how close he was to the Emperor. Astelan replied that he was one of several thousand chapter masters serving the Emperor. The inference is that he was talking about existing chapter masters as he was stating that he was one of several thousand at the time, no more deserving than any other.

That would also suggest that the marines numbered in the millions. The word several suggests at least three (otherwise the word couple would be used) so several thousand would see 3000 chapter masters as a base figure giving three million marines as a minimum number for the legions combined.

It seems obvious that this "fact" does not sit well at all with the "fact" that ADB gave that legions average 100,000 marines. That would give two million as an upper limit on numbers rather than the three million as a minimum that GT used.

 

I read the second quote from the book wrong as the poster did not say Astelan was was talking about how close he was to the big E and i thought he was on about "His" as maybe being the Lion

[TennisBall]

if one novel might infer that there had been three million Marines at any point, we can just dismiss that as a misinformed character.

 

I'm hoping that the official fluff will be properly presented at some point so that we the readers who don't work for GW/BL can get a handle on what happened and when instead of having to read between the lines all the time. I wouldn't regard the character of Astelan as being misinformed, hyperbole perhaps to downplay his importance but I can't see a chapter commander being that ignorant of how many legionaries there were.

[Iron Lord]

Given that Angels of Darkness was written way back in 2003, before any of the Visions books- maybe that was the first sign that GW was going to revise the size of the collected Legions from around 200,000 marines, to "several million".

 

"Two" could be said to fall within the range defined by "several".

 

Either way- it may indicate that GW had the change in mind for a long time, with Gav Thorpe being one of the first informed.

 

EDIT:- in addition- if it refers to the entire Great Crusade period- quite a large proportion of Chapter Masters may have become casualties, with new Chapter Masters promoted in their place.

[TennisBall]

EDIT:- in addition- if it refers to the entire Great Crusade period- quite a large proportion of Chapter Masters may have become casualties, with new Chapter Masters promoted in their place.

 

At the most it refers to the period that Astelan was a chapter commander as he was talking about the number of fellow commanders that existed at the same time as him. Otherwise you might as well throw in all the commanders of the Thunder Warriors and Imperial army.

I prefer the explanation you offered in regards when the story was written which can easily be explained away by Astelan deliberately exaggerating the number of fellow commanders to show that he didn't regard himself as special.