Torn

[StGene]

I'm thinking of making another Chapter based on the bitz available here. So far, I've got a heavily Spartan-based Chapter or the Lion Warriors. I can't decide which idea to use, or whether they should be descended from the Blood Angels or the Black Templars. Ideas?

[CKO]

Well Black Templar dont have descendants due to their non-codex type nature and blood angels have the curse so it really depends on what other characteristics u want your chapter to have. You dont usually start with who is my primarch you start with other stuff.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

another possibility with the Lion/Wings/Angel heraldry, is to go Dark Angel geneseed, already you have a whole number of big questions needing answering

[Ioldanach]

Well Black Templar dont have descendants due to their non-codex type nature...

This has never, I repeat never, been said by Games Workshop. It is the conclusion of many players based on the extrapolation of certain statements. Aside from the traitor Legions, the only Chapter for which this has ever been positively stated to be the case is the Space Wolves whose only descendant was the Wolf Brothers (who were wiped out). We can logically conclude that the 26th Founding Chapters don't have any descendants simply because there hasn't been a 27th Founding (yet). There are a number of Chapters that aren't "known" to have any successors (a number listed in the Badab War books, for example - though it's important to remember that the entry was for "known descendants").

 

Now the logic that most people use to say that the Black Templars don't have any successors is solid, but the conclusion is not. The primary basis is the statement that the High Lords of Terra prefer to the use the gene-seed of the Ultramarines or their successors in the creation of new "Codex" (i.e., adherent to the Codex Astartes) Chapters. From this we can conclude that the High Lords of Terra won't use the Black Templars gene-seed to create a Codex Chapter. That doesn't in any way mean that they won't use the Black Templars gene-seed, however. Even then, there are always ways that things can happen - the WH40K universe is a complicated place and the left hand rarely knows what the right hand is doing. When you add in the complications of time and competing interests, (almost) anything is possible.

 

We really need to dispense with this myth that the Black Templars don't have any successors (until GW actually says such a thing, that is :) ).

 

Sorry for getting up on my soapbox, but I cringe every time I see someone making the false assertion that the Black Templars don't have any successors.[/getting down off my soapbox]

 

Getting back on topic...

 

Is there a reason you've keyed on the Black Templars and Blood Angels as your choices? Both options could be made to work, but so could any number of other options. The link you provided simply took me to Scibor's website, so it's difficult to pin down exactly which bits you're looking at. Realistically, any progenitor might do.

 

What end-state do you desire?

[Iron Lord]

Well Black Templar dont have descendants due to their non-codex type nature...

This has never, I repeat never, been said by Games Workshop. It is the conclusion of many players based on the extrapolation of certain statements. Aside from the traitor Legions, the only Chapter for which this has ever been positively stated to be the case is the Space Wolves whose only descendant was the Wolf Brothers (who were wiped out).

 

Doesn't that refer only to Second Founding?

 

In any case, after the enlarging of the Second Founding to 400 chapters, it seems possible that they might be retconning some of the old "the chapter only had one/no successors" bits.

 

In Deathwatch:Rites of Battle, you can make your own Space Wolves successors, and if you wish they can even claim (without much evidence to support it though) to be Second Founding. Same with Salamanders- it says "There is no record of any Salamanders Second Founding chapters, though that does not mean there never were any".

 

As to Black Templars and Blood Angels- in Deathwatch: The Achilius Assault, there is a Templars of Blood chapter (Blood Angel successor).

 

"Blood Templars"?

[StGene]

Whoops! Forgot about the High Lords of Terra for a second there :) . Ok, so Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, or Dark Angels. Spartan Imperial Fists, stubborn as all hell. Dark/Blood Angel Lion Warriors, noble warriors with a dark secret, specialize in assault tactics. Or maybe a combo? I focused in on BTemplars and BAngels because they have Codexes that focus on melee assault, BAngels are quite, ahem, powerful on the tabletop, and the BTemplars are just about as badass as badass gets. And Brule's right, any of the Loyalists could work.

[CKO]

He is right you can use Black Templar but the evidence against it is solid. In short do what you like if it sounds reasonable and its good fluff I will accept it!

 

It seems your having a hard time deciding what you want to do, perhaps you should imagine having a conversation with one of your marines about their home world and traditions?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It may have never been categorically stated, but it can be fairly safely assumed the Templars have no successors and the High Lords would never authorise their geneseed for the creation of a successor.

[Brother Tyler]

It may have never been categorically stated, but it can be fairly safely assumed the Templars have no successors and the High Lords would never authorise their geneseed for the creation of a successor.

Based on what? :)

 

Remember what they say about assumptions.

[Heru]

It may have never been categorically stated, but it can be fairly safely assumed the Templars have no successors and the High Lords would never authorise their geneseed for the creation of a successor.

Based on what? :)

 

Remember what they say about assumptions.

Based upon the fact the Black Templars are psykerphobic zealot crusaders who ignore the Codex and the restrictions on Chapter size. The Imperium wouldn't want to breed those sort of ideas, especially considering that we now have proof that parent Chapters send marines to teach and lead their children (Executioners*, Fire Angels).

 

* = Who coindentally are just as aggressive as their Imperial Fist Chapter Master.

 

The only bit about CJJ's post that isn't safe in my opinion would be the "never authorise their geneseed for the creation of a successor" bit, which could still be used in a Fire Angels type "whole cloth" Chapter.

[Brother Tyler]

All of that doesn't mean anything, especially when you stretch your thoughts back to the earliest foundings. While some individuals within the Imperium may have suspicions about the Black Templars, the Imperium as a whole does not. We have little information on why Chapters are selected to sire Successors, though we know that there are a number of reasons. There may be one or more of these (undefined) reasons that might spur the High Lords of Terra to sanction the use of the Black Templars' gene-seed in the creation of a new Chapter.

 

All we can safely say is that the Black Templars likely have few, if any, Successors. The scant material available to us says only that the gene-seed of the Ultramarines and their Successors is preferred in the creation of new Codex Chapters. While it would seem likely that the preference is for new Chapters to be adherent to the Codex Astartes, this is not definitive and may not be universal.

 

If there is any degree of suspicion about the Black Templars, there may have been a time (perhaps in their early history) when there was no such suspicion.

 

The only real potential hindrance would be if the perceived "flaw" of the Black Templars' zeal is tied to their gene-seed, though the Index Astartes article indicates that this is more likely tied to their creed.

 

Games Workshop has never said anything whatsoever pertaining to the Black Templars and whether or not they have any Successors. In contrast, we know of two Chapters for which comments have been made which would indicate that their gene-seed is rarely used, though both of these Chapters (the Blood Angels and Dark Angels) have had Chapters named as later Successors long after these statements were made. The Space Wolves aren't known to have any Successors (barring the previously mentioned Wolf Brothers), and the Salamanders had no known 2nd Founding Successors (though there are several Chapters that might be Successors of Vulkan through later foundings). There may be a few more Chapters out there who for one reason or another have few/no Successors (Cursed Founding, 26th Founding). Other than that, though, we know only of the Imperium's "preference" without knowing any other limiting factors.

 

On previous occasions when this debate has reared it's head supporters of the "no Successors" camp have been asked to support their claim through quotes. On each and every occasion they have singularly failed in this effort. The limited material we have allows for that argument as a potential outcome, but it is by no means the only outcome. It isn't even more likely than the potential for the Black Templars to have "some" Successors. We as players really don't know - the Black Templars may have some Successors or they may not. The conclusion that the Black Templars have no Successors may be possible, but the conclusion that there might be Successors is every bit as tenable. Players can argue their own opinions, but this is another example where players keep espousing something as "fact" when it is truly not a fact.

 

It's interesting to note that I've never heard anyone say that the Black Templars "definitely" have Successors. Instead, these players simply argue that the available material leaves the possibility open. These players recognize that there are gaps and contradictions in the background material and they don't jump to conclusions.

 

Now should GW ever explicitly state that the Black Templars don't have any Successors, the "argument" will be fairly well settled. Conversely, if they ever tell us of one or more Black Templars Successors, the argumentative members of the "no Successors" camp will (rightfully) feel mighty embarrassed at their presumption. In the meantime, though, it would be much more prudent of players to be very clear when they are stating their opinions instead of asserting them as fact. Accept the range of possibilities that the known material supports, and feel free to have your opinion on which outcome you think is most likely, but have the courtesy to not try and force your opinion on others as fact.

[Ace Debonair]

We as players really don't know - the Black Templars may have some Successors or they may not.

 

True enough.

 

It's always worth remembering, though, if you want a Black Templar-esque chapter without inciting the old 'do-they-don't-they' discussion and derailing your thread, there's always the option to use plain Imperial Fists geneseed, and just pick up your templar-like habits as you go. :devil:

[Castiel]

We as players really don't know - the Black Templars may have some Successors or they may not.

 

True enough.

 

It's always worth remembering, though, if you want a Black Templar-esque chapter without inciting the old 'do-they-don't-they' discussion and derailing your thread, there's always the option to use plain Imperial Fists geneseed, and just pick up your templar-like habits as you go. :D

 

Alternatively, their IF instructors could have been lost near their founding, and the BT could have helpfully ;) put some of their own marines in place, thus leading to a templar-like chapter!

 

EDIT: PURGE THE TYPOS!

[Ecritter]

Anyway, I'll come at this from the other direction.

 

I love those bitz, I've looked at them several times before this. But I'd never base an army around bitz .... it just seems wrong to me.