Archon_77 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hey all, played a few games this weekend with a Tyranids player that did a great job of crushing me using this ability/special rule. Basically, according to him shadow of the/in the void caused me to have to roll 3d6 any time I made a test to activate force weapons or hammerhand iwthin 12" of four given units ( Hive tyrant, Zoanthrope, Doom of Malachwhatver it is, and Trigon). I'm not familiar with the nids codex, but this strikes me as somewhat crippling to our armies as a whole (heck, I didn't even bring a libby this time). The potenial for this to ruin Fortitude also has me thoughtful. Anyone else run up against this? It's pretty obvious that he built this list as a hard counter to GK's but still. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 according to him shadow of the/in the void caused me to have to roll 3d6 any time I made a test to activate force weapons or hammerhand iwthin 12" of four given units ( Hive tyrant, Zoanthrope, Doom of Malachwhatver it is, and Trigon.If the last one was a Trygon Prime and not a regular Trygon, then that is correct. It's pretty obvious that he built this list as a hard counter to GK's but still.I doubt it, his list is a fairly standard 5th ed. 'Nid list and not a very good one at that (Doom, Tyrant, Zoans, etc.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2912856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 It's pretty obvious that he built this list as a hard counter to GK's but still.I doubt it, his list is a fairly standard 5th ed. 'Nid list and not a very good one at that (Doom, Tyrant, Zoans, etc.) Don't all Synapse Creatures in the 'nid codex have Shadow in the Warp too? That makes it pretty hard to face a 'nid list that won't have decent SitW coverage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2912871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Heretic Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Not very crippling. At least its nothing compared to the abundance of force weapons to deal with his MCs. Its the 'nids who draw the shortest straw in this matchup. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2912885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 It's pretty obvious that he built this list as a hard counter to GK's but still.I doubt it, his list is a fairly standard 5th ed. 'Nid list and not a very good one at that (Doom, Tyrant, Zoans, etc.) Don't all Synapse Creatures in the 'nid codex have Shadow in the Warp too? That makes it pretty hard to face a 'nid list that won't have decent SitW coverage. They do, but the selection of good Synapse creatures is limited. A common trait for most of them (Flyrant, Zoans, DoM, Warriors) is that they are either slow or fragile, or both. Not very crippling. At least its nothing compared to the abundance of force weapons to deal with his MCs. Its the 'nids who draw the shortest straw in this matchup.Aye.Please correct me if I'm wrong but with banners you can auto-activate the force weapons as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2912888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Not very crippling. At least its nothing compared to the abundance of force weapons to deal with his MCs. Its the 'nids who draw the shortest straw in this matchup.Aye.Please correct me if I'm wrong but with banners you can auto-activate the force weapons as well. Correct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2912907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon_77 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Well it was a 1000 pt game but "short end of the stick" is NOT how it felt to me. I took 2 5 man squads of terminators with psycannons, 1 5 man purifier squad, a GKGM with Psychotroke and a Stormraven. He had 5-10 genestealers (dont remember which) 10 unit of termagaunts, trigon prime, hive tryant with preferred enemy and lash and the doom in a drop pod, with a zoanthrope hanging about. Killpoint mission was the roll, and I got tabled in turn 6 leading 7 pts to 5, when his Trigon ate my GM and then turned around and multi penned the stormraven. I had never played the new nids before, so it was definately a learning experience (SHOOT THAT HIVE TYRANT FAST FAST). I can provide a more detailed batrep if you wish, but I really fail to see how I could have done any better really, though I will admit the stormraven was questionably useful (just built it and wanted to see what it could do). It's early in our accleration league here locally, so I have some time for tweeks. Overall however, its striking to me just how effective the shadow of the warp is against GK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2912963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Put a Brotherhood Banner on a unit, protect them until they can get into combat with the big bads and then they insta-kill it with their non-rolling-to-activate force weapons. Psycannons wreck MC faces, and Stormbolters wreck smaller 'nid faces. :devil: This matchup is primarily about the movement phase for you- for as long as possible, you need to keep the Nids in your shooting range without letting them get into assault range. Whittle them down with your awesome shooting and then charge the remnants on your terms- or be sitting in cover so that when the Nids attack, their lack of Assault Grenades means they're going after your attacks land. In my opinion, Terminators, Purifiers and Stormravens are all too expensive to bring to a 1,000 point game. You brought 16 models and a big vehicle; you could have brought 30 well-equipped Strike Knights and a tooled-up Grand Master. Or some variation on that :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2913173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Grey Knights have a lot of big advantages over Nidz but strange as it might sound the Hive Mind can smack them around... the bugz just have to bring the right tools. G :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2913448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 which tools are those that a GK player has to watch out for ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2913526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Obviously as noted Shadows in the Warp is a good counter to Grey Knight psychic powers. Broodlords have the psychic power Aura of Despair which drops the enemy leadership by -1 for a turn up to a certain distance and this stacks. Any unit that suffers a wound from a devourer also is at -1 leadership. Tyranids tend to be a faster army than Grey Knights so by isolating a section of the army you have the potential to overpower them. It requires some luck with your reserve rolls and is dependent upon deployment. Sometimes the Broodlords will have to get past the Librarian's psychic hood which is another factor. It's not like every Grey Knight unit can cast multiple psychic powers each turn - for example if a Strike squad casts Warp Quake then they can't cast Hammerhand or activate their force weapons the same turn. Basically you want to focus on the weaker units, put your opponent in a position to make some bad decisions and try to avoid units like the Paladin deathstar if possible. It's not easy to beat GK with Tyranids but can be done. The thing about Tyranids in general is they need a fair amount of terrain with some LOS blocking to succeed but this is often the case versus many armies. G :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2913570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 GK are practically custom-designed to obliterate Tyranids, and only get better at bigger points. Move and shoot, that's how you would kill off the little critters, and zoanthropes. Charging the Tyrant and Trygon is more likely to kill them off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2913719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon_77 Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 In my opinion, Terminators, Purifiers and Stormravens are all too expensive to bring to a 1,000 point game. You brought 16 models and a big vehicle; you could have brought 30 well-equipped Strike Knights and a tooled-up Grand Master. Or some variation on that :angry: Agreed! In a lot of ways this was a test game for me, I'm still working out the "bugs" in my 1500 -2000 point lists (What we usually play around here), and am considering some different things. As its an accleration league but NOT list restricted from week to week I have a tendacy to keep my opponents guessing as to what I'll actually bring, and have one many many games in the past leagues at my FLGS for the simple fact that people can't build hard counters to me, as they don't know what toy soldiers will make it to the table :angry: It speaks to something I REALLY like about our new dex, the ability to be somewhat flexible in our list building while still being somewhat "gk like" in our 24" sweet spot and other things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2913783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Well it was a 1000 pt game but "short end of the stick" is NOT how it felt to me. I took 2 5 man squads of terminators with psycannons, 1 5 man purifier squad, a GKGM with Psychotroke and a Stormraven. 1000 pt games are not where you employ Grand Masters and Stormravens. They're just too expensive. While I agree that GKs >> Tyranids in almost every way (poor 'nids), you do have to at least take a competent army list. For an HQ, all you can reasonably afford at 1000 pts are an Inquisitor or a Brotherhood Champion. And you'd be far better off with Rhinos/Razorbacks for transports instead of Stormravens at this points level. Take what you need there, spend the points you save elsewhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2914208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Although, vs a hive tyrant, an alpha strike of mindstrike missiles should kill it dead :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2914387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Shadows of the Warp means very, very, very little to you. Hammerhand and Force Weapons are nice but they are hardly a requirement; just don't use them. <3 Unless the model testing on it is wielding a Warding Stave and is locked in CC, it's not worth the risk. They're still power weapons. You still are bristling with storm bolters. Purge the bugs. You can do it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2914557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 If it worries you that much, may I suggest that you roll 3 dice 10/20/100 times, and see how often you will pass, and how often you will fail, to help you figure out the success rate. I play Draigo wing, so everything in my army has at least 2 wounds. Draigo, libby and DK's are ld10, while my paladins are ld9. due to having 2 wounds and not having to take the psychic test on my justicar I will happily risk it if it means I can smite some multi wound bugs. At a recent tourny I played vs nids, in my last turn I charged a wounded DK vs a 3 strong squad of warriors, through cover, as it was the last thing to do (and I had totally won by then). My dk survived the attacks, and then did 3 wounds, passing my psychic weapon test he then instant killed all 3... Shadows in the warp might be annoying for ld8 models, but it's their only form of psychic defence, and if you manage to charge 1 of the many nid psykers, you will put them down to I1 due to psykout grenades, so I think its a fair trade :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2914565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon_77 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 ..... I FORGOT about the psykout grenades. Yet another in a (longer than I expected) line of reasons I deserved to lose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2914624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon_77 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 1000 pt games are not where you employ Grand Masters and Stormravens. They're just too expensive. While I agree that GKs >> Tyranids in almost every way (poor 'nids), you do have to at least take a competent army list. For an HQ, all you can reasonably afford at 1000 pts are an Inquisitor or a Brotherhood Champion. And you'd be far better off with Rhinos/Razorbacks for transports instead of Stormravens at this points level. Take what you need there, spend the points you save elsewhere. I concur on the stormraven and have stated earlier it was the test unit of the army. Ironically for the game in question I chose not to deploy anything at all inside of it due to the deployment my opponent used. However, I do somewhat disagree wtih you on the GM, mostly because: 1. Grenades of the Psychotrope variety - True I can get this with a Xenos inquistor, but I really dont like the rest of his/her weapon options and lack of terminator armor. Specifically in this game when I knew my opponent wanted to assualt early and often. 2. The ability to make a unit scoring or reroll 1's to wound. Both of these have seriously saved me in many 1000 pt. games. Although I have yet to utlize the other two rules he can give in games, I can think of scenarios were his Counter attack and Scout would also come in very handy. Essentiallly I think it boils down to quantity vs. quality, sure I could have taken a BC but I really think a GKGM can be such a powerful force multiplier that he bears taking even at such a low points level. Granted, as you know number6, I am somewhat used to our last dex and its Limited viable HQ options and overly expensive points costs and thus have a tendacy to employ last generation tactics, but still I cannot quite justify losing all the GM's other benefits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2914634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Yet another in a (longer than I expected) line of reasons I deserved to lose. No one ever deserves to either lose or win. You will win eventually, but whether you're new to the game, the army book, or just whatever list you tried, if you're going up against someone for which little to none of it is new, it's an uphill fight at best. Look at it this way: personally, I prefer Draws or Minor Victories as they are often the result of very close fought, evenly-matched games. When I massacre my opponent - completely brush them off the table - I learn nothing new about the game and my opponent usually ends up disappointed. When I win by a large or small margin, it's nice. When I Draw, it's always an earnest handshake. When I lose - even when I'm tabled - I either got out-played and/or made some mistakes: so I learn something new. The bottom-line is that you learn more from losing than winning, so don't sweat losing. Every time you do, note what decisions you made that - had you gone the other way - may have turned the tide. It's not purely list construction by any means; really every time you move a unit, choose to fire, choose to charge, or forgo any of those with a unit, that decision can make or break things. After you play for a while, you'll start to pick them out like bad moves in chess: "Dammit, if I hadn't assaulted with that unit I may have baited them to charge me, allowing me to counter charge;" or "I was really too aggressive during my first turn." Here, read through this thread. The specifics no longer apply (units and powers now function differently) but the methods and strategies are still very much applicable: the Way of the Water Warrior. In particular, the example games really well explain what he's talking about: the theory itself is just pretty words; his application is really where the art lies. Again, units and abilities are different now, but reactive play is still just as effective as it once was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2914830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 In case anyone is curious (I saw it above), here's the breakdown for how Shadow in the Warp affects psychic tests. 3D6 Success Rate - 15.7% chance of a Perils (on 2D6, only a 5.5% chance) Ld 6: 9.3% Ld 7: 16.2% Ld 8: 25.9% Ld 9: 37.5% Ld 10: 50% I included the lower Ld because someone out there might use the Deathleaper ;) This is my chart. I originally made it for WHFB and spellcasting, but it also has other uses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2914950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 It's not always an auto win versus Tyranids. A good general with a good list can beat GK. G :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2915001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 It's not always an auto win versus Tyranids. A good general with a good list can beat GK. G :lol: 'course, that's true of every army in the game; even with one of the weaker 'dexes like 'nids or Sisters (and even the horribly out-of-date books) a good general can find ways to win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2915014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 It's not always an auto win versus Tyranids. A good general with a good list can beat GK. G :lol: 'course, that's true of every army in the game; even with one of the weaker 'dexes like 'nids or Sisters (and even the horribly out-of-date books) a good general can find ways to win. I like the John Madden-thing we got goin on here. <3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2915027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon_77 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 I like that we are essentially talking about how to beat/play against Nids. It's very helpful for newer players. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/#findComment-2915426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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