the jeske Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 It's not always an auto win versus Tyranids. A good general with a good list can beat GK. G :ermm: which of the builds or do you mean tailroing list against nids , because there GK can make a list that will be untouchable for a nid player [specialy as a lot of nid stuff doesnt work on transported units . unlike sm hoods and all the other auras in the game] . its not a question of good vs bad. naked GK beat naked nids because of power armor and anti psyker stuff. force weapons with possible auto activation are death to MC and the fact that GK can and offten have a higher I then nid doesnt help [be it because of halabards or because of nids not having frags]. also unlike in the ages past GK are can , like all other marines , go mecha . there is nothing worse for nids then mecha . because half of their anti tank is psychic[hello there hoods and venerable dreads] or glances and unlike all other marines out there glances do nothing to GK . nids cant even win with hoping that their death star will out assault/destroy the GK army . because draigon wing actualy outdeathstarts the nids and a multi charge of 2-3 puri squads in a crow build following a 2-3 turn of shoting has almost the same effect . even non crow/draigo builds have a good chance in hth [nids as from the army mechanic are suppose to be the best at hth] because a combination of Gk+libby +unit +rad/psy/mines owns the death star too. But its not even be biggest problem for nids players when they play againsts nids . the problem is that most of the time GK can win against them without casting any psychic powers or using force weapons . examples ? brood of warriors multi wound model , force feed to use by design[by nerfing options that were good before] . lash wips+ bone swords ID on 3d6 drop you to i 1[important because we dont have frags] . awesome till they see 3 dreads with 4x8str twin linked shots on the other side of the table . infiltrating stealers , rending , an HQ hidding in the unit etc[no frags but that is life] . only GK just like SW can create an anti infiltration bubble which means stealers dont get to charge [so they get shot at and die . not that they wont die in hth if the GK player puts his unit in cover] . e etc etc etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2011/10/p...ryanids-vs.html G :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 The jeske makes a good point: the Nids real ranged anti-tank is psyker-based. A librarian and a handful of Land Raiders = the Nids will have the fight of their lives. Interesting. How many MCs do the Nids have that are S7+ ? How mobile are they? (Maybe I should pick up a copy of that codex.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Think it's only Carnifexes that are S7+ although there are a lot at S6 and some of them might be rending? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 How many MCs do the Nids have that are S7Trygons with Adrenal Glands have S7 on the charge and are moderately fast. Carnifex base strength is 9 but they are slow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 S6 MC w/ Rending would be extremely effective...that's as good as a melta gun, really (the difference seems negligible to me, off the cuff). Carnifexes have severely limited mobility though, if memory serves (i.e. they're not Fleet or anything). What else is there? Anybody care to enumerate their big baddies? :ph34r: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 S6 MC w/ Rending would be extremely effective...that's as good as a melta gun, really (the difference seems negligible to me, off the cuff). Carnifexes have severely limited mobility though, if memory serves (i.e. they're not Fleet or anything). What else is there? Anybody care to enumerate their big baddies? :) Suffice it to say that I've been playing Tyranids ever since the latest codex hit the streets, and I haven't managed to beat a (competent) GK list even once. 'Nids depend too heavily on their MCs, which are way overpriced. Their T6 is meaningless against GKs, who really don't care with force weapons everywhere. Shadows in the Warp has only a 12" range, and worse, can't penetrate into vehicles. Almost no 'nids have assault grenade equivalents which means that even some of their best assault units get hosed if an opponent is shooty enough that they can afford to sit in cover and bait assaults. Like, say, GKs, who have superior shooting. When it comes to GKs v 'Nids and two equally skilled players behind each army, you should never bet on the 'nids. GW did a very poor job with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Lictors are something to be wary of. They come out of nowhere, are S6 Rending, with a boatload of attacks and are difficult to target. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Lictors are something to be wary of. They come out of nowhere, are S6 Rending, with a boatload of attacks and are difficult to target. Are they MCs? If yes, then S6 2d6 Rending is more than capable of tearing through a Land Raider. No sweat. If no, then it's still capable of punching through, but not as terrifying. It's good against a Rhino...but then, what isn't? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Lictors arent MC's. From what I have seen, the main anti tank shooting from nids is from their hive guard, which is 24 inch range and str 8. Zoanthropes are rather terrible at anti tank, str 10 lance seems awesome, but they have short range (18 if i remember correctly), and then have to roll 3 times, either of those fail and they fail (not counting aegis, or a psychic hood which makes it even worse). Imagine if you had to roll a ld check for every melta gun you had, and could only take them in your elites... I've played vs nids quite a few times, and the main issue is the genestealers or the tyrant, everything else is pretty easy to kill (though I play Draigo wing so can take 10 wounds on my main paladin squad and still be at full effectiveness). Shadows in the warp is the main defence they have vs grey knights, and as has been said, it doesn't even effect units in transports, which I would understand if psychic hoods couldn't block spells cast from inside a transport... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Nidz can beat GK. The thing is a lot of units that people say are awesome (e.g., Tervigons) actually are trash. Zoies are still good and your best tank buster. If you take three in a spore they will shred something. Hive Tyrants suck as well - only 4 wounds, have a BIG target painted on them and no Eternal Warrior. I have read many batreps where Swarmlord with Tyrant Guard were shot off the table before ever reaching close combat. Genestealers (incl. Yrmgal) are pure gold. So is the Alpha Warrior. If you think you can just run up all your units and beat them in melee you will never win. The Hive Mind must use its superior cunning. ;) G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Um. Zoanthropes need to test (which can fail on its own, is impacted by Aegis, and be psychic hooded) then roll to hit (which can miss) then roll to pen (which, despite Lance and S10, isn't guaranteed); that's a lot of rolls and a lot of strikes against the poor things. They're good but they're worse than rail guns...which are not very good. (Strong is awesome; single shots suck. It's like that lone lascannon in a tac squad; bugger likes to miss.) I think Lictors are the most interesting anti-vehicle unit I've seen so far, and - frankly - S8 weapon spam can glance a LR to death (see: Nob packs). I lack both that codex and the army though, so I'd need a die hard Nid player to convince me one way or the other. number6's self-report above is discouraging. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2915991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I said a unit of three Zoies. They can always sit back and soak Strike squads with their S5 AP3 blasts if there aren't any landraiders needing to be popped. G :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 and how does that change anything when normal GK have the aegis too . and its boosted to -4 if there is a venerable dread. and all of those shots get canceled if there is a libby around and the only ones that dont run libbies are crow builds at 1500 or less. how are alfa warriors better then other HQs ? because they can save a single warrior per turn from getting ID ? that doesnt matter considering the rate of fire . And if one plans to run them in the hive+alfa +guard set up GK can kill it [and by can i dont mean a 1 in 100 chance] even if they dont play a death star themselfs. lictors are crap . people are forgetting that the lictors we have now are not the 4th ed ones. They deep strike in to cover and cant assault . they sit there for a whole turn doing nothing . considering there is a 50% chance they will be seen on turn 2 and with game being random lenght offten , when lictors actualy do arive it is offten too late . And even if they do arrive on 2 dont die on 3 all it takes to save a tank from them is to move it and the low number of A the lictor has will do the rest. as the melee and runing comments goes . you think you can stand or stand and move and outshot MSU or guard or GK in any form ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 When I field units of three at least one shot always gets through. I love to shoot psyflemen and watch them go BOOM. :P G :blush: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 and the only ones that dont run libbies are crow builds at 1500 or less. Ah, the jeske and his mono-builds that everyone takes. Question, BO: how do you get your Zo's in range to pop a Psyfleman? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 and the only ones that dont run libbies are crow builds at 1500 or less. Ah, the jeske and his mono-builds that everyone takes. I was thinking much the same. My friend runs GK's and he uses a librarian once in a blue moon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I have other units to pressure the Strikes... They are too busy with other things to waste any time casting WQ. It's easy to get SitW and possibly DoA in range as well. G ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I have other units to pressure the Strikes... They are too busy with other things to waste any time casting WQ. So you... Deep Strike your Zo's, that's the answer? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Of course - they are in a spore. It's in the batrep I linked to. G :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Gotcha. That makes a bit more sense then. I've never seen a Nid player field a spore, so my experience is always having a few turns to shoot at Zos before they get anywhere near dangerous range B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 They are best used to lob power armor with the S5 AP3 blasts. Landraiders are not that popular anymore but the first thing people will ask you is how will you take one out. G :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 They are best used to lob power armor with the S5 AP3 blasts. Landraiders are not that popular anymore but the first thing people will ask you is how will you take one out. You're speaking in a vacuum. I see land raiders used all the time. :rolleyes: And the same vacuum-thinking applies to your assertion that zoeys are best used as infantry hunters. Well, that depends entirely upon all of: * the actual army you're facing * the state of the game on this specific turn * the objectives defined that determine ultimate victory So absolutes with respect to zoeys do not apply. Their strengths are obvious: they are fully capable of shooting down any vehicle and killing most infantry. Their weaknesses are equally obvious: they rely on psyker powers, their shots are short-ranged, they are completely worthless in assault and are also vulnerable to simple torrents of fire, and so on. I like zoeys and use them all the time. But they are no panacea, and cannot be depended upon absolutely like you have been implying. This is what it means to be "all comers". You can't just be prepared to beat the armies you know you will see, but you must also anticipate the armies you know can reasonably exist, purely based on what's available in the codexes. Just because people where you play poo-poo land raiders doesn't mean either of: A. Land raiders aren't used (very often) or B. Land raiders aren't very good. Neither statement is true in the wider world. This is the problem that 'nids have. They are horrid all-comers armies because they simply don't have the tools or defenses to reliably take on all comers. Rather, they rely on relatively favorable matchups ... which more often than not they will still struggle with. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Landraiders are not that popular anymore ... The pics on GW's site covering the Throne of Skulls seem to show a different opinion. While there, you really ought to see the art work on the space wolf LR. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/...tiPageMode=true Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 There were a lot of landraiders, I killed all 5 landraiders that were used by 3 of my opponents. But among my friends I own the most landraiders at 2 :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241206-shadow-in-the-void/page/2/#findComment-2916985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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