Necrons: Pre-emptive Strike

[Brother Tiberus]

Hail all Brothers!

 

I put forth a general topic for guidance and wisdom against the new machines, so please all contribute ^_^

 

Having looked at the stat lines of the Necrons from the GW advanced orders, I'm quite intrigued. They look like they have far stronger shooting weapons, as well as some hard hitting close combat attacks (power armour almost being rendered irrelevant). Although, what looks good is that they seem to only 'Come Back' on a roll of a 5+ which I think helps us felling them in general. That, and the fact that all models seem to only have an I of 2 seems great.

 

For me, that means a SW Rune Priest's Jaws power will really come into play against them in a big way. I imagine lots of character and sergeants sinking down into the earth! :devil:

 

I have not read the new WD that covers them further, and would really like other players (and other factions/chapters/armies) to give a their 2 cents worth.

 

Cheers!

 

Update: So a summary so far from what I've garnered from everyone who's contributed (thank you):

 

• Mix it up: Missiles and Lascannons together should work well, especially to knock out the quantum shielding.
  
• Melta's: Still your friend. So keep your stock.
  
• Focus: Pick your targets wisely and use your weapons to best effect.
  

[Brother Nihm]

what looks good is that they seem to only 'Come Back' on a roll of a 5+ which I think helps us felling them in general.

Please note that they have access to abilities and units (vehicles iirc) that automatically bring back an additional 1d3 per turn.

[DarkGuard]

Well one of the massive things to keep in mind is that Necron Warriors are now Sv 4+. That is a massive difference, more so than the new WBB save. It now means that weapons such as heavy bolters and autocannons. With there likely to be a "spike" in Necron activity I think it'll be save to say that there will be a lot of new Cron armies on the table so dakka Preds and even heavy bolter Devs may see more use, while Rifleman and Typhoons will be as dangerous as ever, while assault cannon Razorspam will be quite happy. Flayed Ones also suffer from this, but can infiltrate and therefore Outflank to get into combat. As long as they don't come with power weapons or rending then they're relying on amount of attacks to get through power armour, and anyone who's played with Assault Marines can tell you how that normally works out. And with a lower initiative than Marines and a worst armour save there won't be as many to strike back with.

 

Of course, most of the other units seem to be sporting 3+ saves and some of the more elite units have a higher toughness and even strength as well, so krak missiles and plasma weapons will still be needed, just not in as much supply as before, save some points and stick a couple of heavy bolters in for the weaker troops.

 

As for their vehicles, it seems they're all AV11 all round, so I guess you should approach them as you would a Rhino, with autocannons, krak missiles and the odd lascannon or two.

 

Of course, as with the last Codex and seemingly with this one as well combat will be the way to go. With pretty much most of their choices sporting initiative two, and their more basic troops having only a 4+ armour save getting in there with even combat blades can prove effective, although with the 3+ save units power weapons of course would be best. Of course, don't forget that they have some units with power weapons of their own, such as the Lychguard which also have a invulnerable save. Fortunately again they have a low initiative, so it could be worth risking units such as Honour Guard, but against such units it'll be Hammernators that shine as always. Of course, the big problem is getting them there, with Crons being a shooty army expect to take some hits to your transport on the way in and maybe have to footslog.

 

Ultimately, I'm not overly worried, but then I never am. There's a few nasty things, but also some good things for us, and I'm confident that with maybe a little bit of tweaking my Knights Seraphic will see me through, as they have done so many other times before.

[Something Wycked]

As DG said, anything in the Crons with a 4+ or worse save will fall like wheat before the scythe of Autocannons, Assault Cannons, and Heavy Bolters- and for those of us with the GK persuasion, Incinerators, Heavy Incinerators, and Psycannons. In CC, GK's will perform especially well considering that in most cases they won't need Halberds to go first and will always ignore armor.

 

Things won't really change for me- mobility and moar dakka is the order of the day :)

[DarkGuard]

A thing that might be worth considering for GKs is falchions on some units, get a few more attacks in, especially as you don't have to worry about higher initiative, and with hammerhand the attacks should do damage, worth a thought.

[Corby]

Well one of the massive things to keep in mind is that Necron Warriors are now Sv 4+. That is a massive difference, more so than the new WBB save. It now means that weapons such as heavy bolters and autocannons. With there likely to be a "spike" in Necron activity I think it'll be save to say that there will be a lot of new Cron armies on the table so dakka Preds and even heavy bolter Devs may see more use, while Rifleman and Typhoons will be as dangerous as ever, while assault cannon Razorspam will be quite happy. Flayed Ones also suffer from this, but can infiltrate and therefore Outflank to get into combat. As long as they don't come with power weapons or rending then they're relying on amount of attacks to get through power armour, and anyone who's played with Assault Marines can tell you how that normally works out. And with a lower initiative than Marines and a worst armour save there won't be as many to strike back with.

 

Of course, most of the other units seem to be sporting 3+ saves and some of the more elite units have a higher toughness and even strength as well, so krak missiles and plasma weapons will still be needed, just not in as much supply as before, save some points and stick a couple of heavy bolters in for the weaker troops.

 

As for their vehicles, it seems they're all AV11 all round, so I guess you should approach them as you would a Rhino, with autocannons, krak missiles and the odd lascannon or two.

 

Of course, as with the last Codex and seemingly with this one as well combat will be the way to go. With pretty much most of their choices sporting initiative two, and their more basic troops having only a 4+ armour save getting in there with even combat blades can prove effective, although with the 3+ save units power weapons of course would be best. Of course, don't forget that they have some units with power weapons of their own, such as the Lychguard which also have a invulnerable save. Fortunately again they have a low initiative, so it could be worth risking units such as Honour Guard, but against such units it'll be Hammernators that shine as always. Of course, the big problem is getting them there, with Crons being a shooty army expect to take some hits to your transport on the way in and maybe have to footslog.

 

Ultimately, I'm not overly worried, but then I never am. There's a few nasty things, but also some good things for us, and I'm confident that with maybe a little bit of tweaking my Knights Seraphic will see me through, as they have done so many other times before.

 

You're forgetting the quantum shielding and living metal rule , which most of their vehicles have. Quantum shielding adds +2 to the front and side armour facings until the vehicle suffers its first penetrating hit , while living metal allows a vehicle to ignore stunned and shaken results. That alone makes for a very tough army to kill ( at least in the opening turns anyways). Av 13 can be a pain to get through (As grey knight players will tell you) meaning you've an army thats tough , fast and can throw out a lot of shooting. All the makings of a good strong list. The Stormlord is going to be a very gimmicky/game changing character with his weird day/night ability , so I'd expect to see some marine armies packing searchlights in that case , I mean 1 point on a vehicle to negetate an expensive characters ability to some degree is pretty nice.

[ShinyRhino]

Quantum Shielding does down to the first glancing OR penetrating hit, or so I've read.

Searchlights are free on every Marine vehicle outside of the Templar and Dark Angel books.

 

Necrons seem like an army that will come strong out of the gate, but once they start taking hits and casualties, they drop off exponentially. The transports are expensive (both in points and cash value), so don't expect to see too many of them zooming around. It'll be a game of target priority, like any game of 40K.

 

I will be happy when I can field Heavy Bolters in quantity for more than a lark, though. :devil:

 

Since most players will be starting out with old-school collections, you'll likely see a lot of Phalanx, Destroyerwing, or Wraithwing builds. Whirlwinds might become a beautiful tool, and the heavy bolter will shred Destroyers and Wraiths. We hope anyways.

 

It's all conjecture at this point though. Read the new book cover to cover, and you should find your hard counters easily enough.

[Corby]

Quantum Shielding does down to the first glancing OR penetrating hit, or so I've read.

Searchlights are free on every Marine vehicle outside of the Templar and Dark Angel books.

 

Necrons seem like an army that will come strong out of the gate, but once they start taking hits and casualties, they drop off exponentially. The transports are expensive (both in points and cash value), so don't expect to see too many of them zooming around. It'll be a game of target priority, like any game of 40K.

 

I will be happy when I can field Heavy Bolters in quantity for more than a lark, though. :D

 

Since most players will be starting out with old-school collections, you'll likely see a lot of Phalanx, Destroyerwing, or Wraithwing builds. Whirlwinds might become a beautiful tool, and the heavy bolter will shred Destroyers and Wraiths. We hope anyways.

 

It's all conjecture at this point though. Read the new book cover to cover, and you should find your hard counters easily enough.

 

Lastest news indicates they're only removed on the first penetrating hit as far as I remember. I think White dwarf says that as well. Searchlights arn't free on every marine vehicle. Blood Angels have to pay for them. I'd avoid changing your usual lists too much to compensate for the arrival of Necrons , as by drasticly changing your list to deal with them will mean you won't be able to deal with other armies.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

The only thing really I see that we need to do is that we will need more Lascannons really. We need to be able to get a pen hit easier on the vehicles at ranged where a Missile Launcher can only pen on a Six.

[MagicMan]

I wouldn't put so much stock in the 4+ save being a saving grace.

 

 

 

Orks have a 6+ save but with the way the opponent hugs cover they may as well have a 4+. I think Warriors will prove pretty durable on the battlefield, even if they don't sound it on paper.

[DerekLee688]

Orks not shooting is not as bad as warriors not being able to glance a land raider to death.

[ak-73]

It will just cement what makes up a competitive vanilla army: Rifleman Dreads, Typhoons, Dakka Preds (and LasPlas Raozrbacks). The main thing is transports, few armies can work while foot-slogging. I don't think WBB will be a saving grace with Sv 4+ and no transports - so Arks are a must. One counter to them might be combi-melta + melta bomb scouts. Possibly with camo cloaks. Once on foot, the crons can be killed by competitive armies with ease.

 

Alex

[Captain Idaho]

My own competetive list isn't too scared of Necrons since my assault unit can beat theirs easily enough thanks to mass power weapons and lovely higher initiative :P and I have reasonable firepower already with all my Lascannons etc.

[DarkGuard]

You're forgetting the quantum shielding and living metal rule , which most of their vehicles have. Quantum shielding adds +2 to the front and side armour facings until the vehicle suffers its first penetrating hit , while living metal allows a vehicle to ignore stunned and shaken results. That alone makes for a very tough army to kill ( at least in the opening turns anyways). Av 13 can be a pain to get through (As grey knight players will tell you) meaning you've an army thats tough , fast and can throw out a lot of shooting. All the makings of a good strong list. The Stormlord is going to be a very gimmicky/game changing character with his weird day/night ability , so I'd expect to see some marine armies packing searchlights in that case , I mean 1 point on a vehicle to negetate an expensive characters ability to some degree is pretty nice.

 

Ah, my bad, to tell the truth I was going by the GW stats on product page and have not had access to WD yet. Of course, with lascannons in the list you can tear down those shields and then let the missiles and autocannons finish them off. Aren't some of them open-topped as well? I'm sure I saw that. If so then that pen will probably knock them out the sky anyway.

 

@ShinyRhino, actually looked at the Ghost Ark price and its ridiculous, to think that for an extra tenner you could get a Land Raider, as you've said I don't think we'll see too many of them to begin with due to their price, maybe one or two for more important units or those that want to grab objectives. I can see there being some Doomsday Arks though to supplement the force on foot. And if I'm being honest I'm happy about the price of the Arks, I always like the idea of Crons being a slow, ponderous foot army, like the opposite to Nids, slower, but more resilient. But that's just me.

 

@Idaho, if your list will be fine dealing with them then I imagine mine will be fine as well :)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Your average army probably won't be needing more than a couple of Arks, though. For objective games, big squads of Warriors -- if they can be built larger than ten, which I can't think of why they wouldn't -- will be able to just sit on objectives in the backfield or move up to midfield ones, pulling WBB rolls to keep up numbers, while the Arks speed forward with the big punch-you-good units.

 

I do agree with what's been posted so far -- more AP4 and more lascannons -- but I also want to push Sternguard and Thunderfires (for the Codex players amongst us) up for greater consideration. With nothing but skimmers as vehicles and a greater spread of jump infantry (one of the elite CC units are reportedly JI, and Destroyers are going to be JI instead of jetbikes), the TFC's Tremor rounds will come into their own in forcing their tanks and jumpers to roll dice on Dangerous Terrain tests. Sternguard meanwhile bring AP4 Kraken rounds for use in knocking down Warriors, and AP3 Vengeance rounds for shooting down the heavier guys, and they also have a good base of two attacks for getting stuck in with those nice slow I2 Necrons.

[ak-73]

I have to add Kantor and his Dorn's Arrow. S4 AP4 Assault 4.

 

Alex

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Well one of the massive things to keep in mind is that Necron Warriors are now Sv 4+. That is a massive difference, more so than the new WBB save. It now means that weapons such as heavy bolters and autocannons. With there likely to be a "spike" in Necron activity I think it'll be save to say that there will be a lot of new Cron armies on the table so dakka Preds and even heavy bolter Devs may see more use, while Rifleman and Typhoons will be as dangerous as ever, while assault cannon Razorspam will be quite happy. Flayed Ones also suffer from this, but can infiltrate and therefore Outflank to get into combat. As long as they don't come with power weapons or rending then they're relying on amount of attacks to get through power armour, and anyone who's played with Assault Marines can tell you how that normally works out. And with a lower initiative than Marines and a worst armour save there won't be as many to strike back with.

 

Of course, most of the other units seem to be sporting 3+ saves and some of the more elite units have a higher toughness and even strength as well, so krak missiles and plasma weapons will still be needed, just not in as much supply as before, save some points and stick a couple of heavy bolters in for the weaker troops.

 

As for their vehicles, it seems they're all AV11 all round, so I guess you should approach them as you would a Rhino, with autocannons, krak missiles and the odd lascannon or two.

 

Of course, as with the last Codex and seemingly with this one as well combat will be the way to go. With pretty much most of their choices sporting initiative two, and their more basic troops having only a 4+ armour save getting in there with even combat blades can prove effective, although with the 3+ save units power weapons of course would be best. Of course, don't forget that they have some units with power weapons of their own, such as the Lychguard which also have a invulnerable save. Fortunately again they have a low initiative, so it could be worth risking units such as Honour Guard, but against such units it'll be Hammernators that shine as always. Of course, the big problem is getting them there, with Crons being a shooty army expect to take some hits to your transport on the way in and maybe have to footslog.

 

Ultimately, I'm not overly worried, but then I never am. There's a few nasty things, but also some good things for us, and I'm confident that with maybe a little bit of tweaking my Knights Seraphic will see me through, as they have done so many other times before.

 

This seems about right to me.

 

When I played against Necrons when they first came out, it was the Assault Marines - I wish we Imperials had a neat one word name like Raptors :), Lightning claws Captain and Deathwing that ate them. The Tacs, etc. not so much.

 

Heavy flamers don't seem to have been mentioned, and will mess up sv4+ in the open or in cover ;)

 

AV13 on the transports (until pen'ed) is both an excellent game mechanic, but also a good reason for Las cannons. s8 is just going to struggle, which makes me wonder what Missile Fangs will be up to. I guess another reason for LasPlasBacks?

 

I think you want good shooting to mess up their mêlée units, because I'd think they'd have some nasty rules, and then i4 power weapons to cream the normal guys.

 

Which is much the way it was beforehand, imo.

[ak-73]

Lascannons aren't the best answer to AV13 - too unreliable; they are at best in an auxiliary position. Having enough early melta is much better. MM Attack Bikes, infiltrating melta scouts, gating melta hunters - they all can put pens on early. After that the transports are game and the necrons become much less scary because as soon as the warriors are out of their transports, they'll die under a barrage of AP4 or better.

 

Also 2xHF Sternguards will eliminate foot necrons in droves. The vanilla marines have what it takes to deal with walking necrons; you need to revisit your list to see if you can place enough early pens on necron vehicles. That seems to be what I am taking out of this thread.

 

 

Alex

[DarkGuard]

The problem with melta is that it is short ranged. You are thereby relying on Drop Pods which can scatter, Gate can scatter as well and is only 24", which isn't as big as it sounds, and then the tri-melta torpedo which works best on the first turn, not so great with that character who can influence first turn. Lascannons on the other hand can hit them from across the board. I'm not saying melta is wrong, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss lascannons as a big weapon to use against the Necron transports. Melta being delivered in those ways can also be unreliable, and it is also suicidal, that unit will die quickly and horrible, alone and cut off in enemy lines. That's fine for some people, but not for others, I know I don't like using too many suicide tactics, it just doesn't resonate well with the fluff of Marines IMO.

 

Wilhelm, you are completely right about heavy flamers, I can't believe people forgot them. I may have to put my second heavy flamer back into my Sternguard, those two and the Avenger will wreck them. Or if you're feeling mean add Vulkan as well. I think we'll have a little fun with these Warriors, although we shouldn't forget their WBB save, 5+ I believe it was.

[ak-73]

Well, I suppose the vehicles being open-topped makes Lascannons a bit more viable. Still it's going to cause lots of wasted shots and you might kill those transports in time. How about this then: place 2 interdictor units into the transports path. 2x5 cc scouts can ruin such a transports day surely, especially if equipped with c-melta and melta bombs and camo cloaks. It forces the enemy to try to remove your scouts before bringing his troops closer. If he tries shooting, he'll have to remove 5 marines with 2+ cover saves after going to ground. If he tries through melee, he is just expending part of his troops to try to remove cheap troops of yours with 2A each.

 

Either way you gain time for your Lascannons (and then MLs and the Autocannons) to do their job.

 

Also if you have a competitive list, you should have early melta anyway because you are already prepared to deal with LR or double LR lists. Scouts (either on Foot or in LSS), MM Attack Bikes or LS with MM/HF or gating melta can all provide early melta threats. That is what I was alluding to.

 

Alex

 

PS Didn't they have an item that makes melta/flame weapons get got? Won't be a deterrent nor something the cron player can rely on anyway.

[Brother Tiberus]

When I played against Necrons when they first came out, it was the Assault Marines - I wish we Imperials had a neat one word name like Raptors :P, Lightning claws Captain and Deathwing that ate them. The Tacs, etc. not so much.

 

AV13 on the transports (until pen'ed) is both an excellent game mechanic, but also a good reason for Las cannons. s8 is just going to struggle, which makes me wonder what Missile Fangs will be up to. I guess another reason for LasPlasBacks?

 

I think Missile Fangs won't have too much of a problem. Sure, glancing might not be a big thing, but all you need is 1 glance to stop the big 'Cron gun from shooting you to pieces. Plus I like to think sheer volume of fire might strike lucky with a penetrating hit.

 

I think this is where the Grey Hunters and Marks of the Wulfen will really shine against the 'Crons. From what I've seen on the GW site, all the models have I2. So laying the smack down on them will be most fun :)

 

Seems like the Phase Out rule is gone, so that'll definitely make them harder to deal with (I think).

[Something Wycked]

I think Missile Fangs won't have too much of a problem. Sure, glancing might not be a big thing, but all you need is 1 glance to stop the big 'Cron gun from shooting you to pieces. Plus I like to think sheer volume of fire might strike lucky with a penetrating hit.

If you get lucky and roll Weapon Destroyed; Living Metal ignores Shaken and Stunned results.

 

Seems like the Phase Out rule is gone, so that'll definitely make them harder to deal with (I think).

Yep. No artificial auto-lose mechanic built into the army, so they have to be dealt with as extensively as everyone else.

 

PS Didn't they have an item that makes melta/flame weapons get got? Won't be a deterrent nor something the cron player can rely on anyway.

That's a special character, but yes. I imagine he will be among the most common characters taken with how prevalent Melta is, and how effective Heavy Flamers/Incinerators are against Crons.

[DarkGuard]

Seems like the Phase Out rule is gone, so that'll definitely make them harder to deal with (I think).

Yep. No artificial auto-lose mechanic built into the army, so they have to be dealt with as extensively as everyone else.

 

I think this is the most welcome change, for everyone. Sure it makes our lives a bit harder as now we have to either win on objectives or kill all of them, but in the end it makes for a longer, more fun game IMO, and also encourages multiple builds, beforehand many people didn't feel safe without having 40 Necron Warriors and some Res Orbs to keep them going.

[ak-73]

If you get lucky and roll Weapon Destroyed; Living Metal ignores Shaken and Stunned results.

 

It's a more doable proposition with open-topped vehicles.

 

That's a special character, but yes. I imagine he will be among the most common characters taken with how prevalent Melta is, and how effective Heavy Flamers/Incinerators are against Crons.

 

Wonder how much that will cost because, as I said, it's nothing the Necron general can rely on in his planning. It's on occasional saving grace, nothing more.

From what I have seen so far I wouldn't have to modify my semi-competitive army list at all.

 

Do they have any psy or psy blockers?

 

 

Alex

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I believe their Crypteks are psychic? At least thats what I got from their section:

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1380035a