Necrons: Pre-emptive Strike

[Brother Ambroz]

Has anyone fought them yet?

[Gothical]

I've not fought them yet, but I am taking them into consideration (I guess it is lucky that I am trying to round out my 1500pt army at the time of their release). I posted this on another forum, but I feel it is relevant here:

 

Do you fine folk think that, in light of the changes to the Necron army (Warriors at a 4+ Save; the Quantum Shielding/Living Metal on the AV11 Transports/a whole slew of quite lethal vehicles) that this could herald a viable return for the Twin-Linked Lascannon+Heavy Bolter Predator?

 

It seems like it may be an effective way to get some high-strength shooting into the army (as Missile Launchers/Autocannons are not going to suffice against most vehicles, at least until you can strip that Quantum Shielding through Penetrating Hits), and then you still have the Warrior-mowing power of the Heavy Bolters.

 

A pair of these tanks, coupled with a small Tactical Squad (Power Weapon) in a Razorback (any weapon, all seem useful here) would make for a very effective "core", and yet still be quite viable against many other armies - perhaps not as outright awesome as AC+LC/HB Predators, but I feel those are not quite so competent against the Necrons in the first place (the Tactical Squad brings the icing on the cake as it makes the formation Scoring, and you can play around with the Razorback upgrades to bring all sorts of extra abilities). It also leaves you room for all sorts of other stuff (the standard Twin-Autocannon Dreadnought, Typhoons, Terminators etc.)

 

Whilst a Land Raider may bring a similar level of firepower, it makes a very tasty targets for Scarab Swarms with their new ability - thus spreading that power out over a couple of vehicles (and grabbing more Heavy Bolters alongside) seems like it may be a better option. Dreadnoughts with Lascannon have to be very close to have an equivalent level of horde-mowing power; Sternguard with Lascannons might be too static for the new-found mobility of the Necron army, and you don't want them hanging back against other foes; Tactical Squads probably want to be up-close with Pistols, Flamers and Assaults; Devastators are insanely expensive if you want Lascannons. So it seems, to me at least, that the LC/HB Predator might find a viable role in our army lists once more.

[DarkGuard]

A las/bolter pred sounds interesting for taking down Crons, could work. Of course, the problem here is that it is still an expensive choice and not so viable against other armies. A good well balanced army if going to have to fight other opponents apart from Crons, so while it's a good choice it'll need good integration to stand up against other armies.

[Drahazar]

Massed fire or just close combat is effective. better to get in to CC I would avoid the Wraiths they have lash whips if the dude bought the upgrade for them and they are nasty in CC. Immortal are nice but lost 1S. Destroyers are still nice there guns lost 1S and 1shot but are now AP3 also are 24inch. There are also 2 flyers as well one is a transport. Monolith is cheaper but lost its pull guys through for WBB but can pull any unit on the table through the portal. Can not take them out of combat. A lot of the Special guys are powerful but not too bad. Flayed ones still suck and warriors can be from 5 to 20 same with warriors. Wraiths are 1-6 Destroyers can be upgraded to heavy but only three in the squad. Immortals 5-10 in a unit. And the Ctan shard is not really great at all and the metla blow up thing is only in 6 or 12 inchs and its on a roll of a 1 nothing really special.

 

I am Necron player Fear me. Though i am building a BT army. Any more questions just ask.

[Gothical]

A las/bolter pred sounds interesting for taking down Crons, could work. Of course, the problem here is that it is still an expensive choice and not so viable against other armies. A good well balanced army if going to have to fight other opponents apart from Crons, so while it's a good choice it'll need good integration to stand up against other armies.

 

I don't know - they've been fairly useful in my army against Blood Angels and Grey Knights - I found I needed a bit of mobility to take down things like Fast Vindicators and "Psyflemen" Dreadnoughts, whilst the Heavy Bolters provided a high rate-of-fire to overcome Feel No Pain and Paladins; though against Dark Eldar they were no more effective than the far cheaper Autocannon variant.

 

They may not be *as* effective as other choices against certain other match-ups, but I think they might have a place in an all-comer list that is expecting some Necrons to appear, as it seems that otherwise you have to tailor many other options specifically to fight Necrons (hold Sternguard back with Lascannons instead of using them as Combi-Weapon delivery units; take Devastators at their silly costs; give them to Dreadnoughts and have them walk rather than Drop Pod in and blast stuff with Melta/hunt Troops with the Heavy Flamer), rather than taking a tank that provides two generally useful weapons (The TL-Lascannon is useful to suppress most vehicles at long range until the Meltas can kill it, the Heavy Bolters are quite potent with so much cover, silly-expensive Marines that are no tougher, and the rise of Guard/Dark Eldar).

 

It just seems so overlooked (and I understand why, particularly if you want a dedicated Vehicle/Infantry killer you have the Autocannon/Lascannon and Autocannon/Heavy Bolter variants respectively), yet I think that spreading threats around is going to be the way to go against the Necrons and thus it may hold some value.

[Stickeh]

I think everyone is far too concerned about taking down necron vehicles and quantum shielding, although with weapons like the doomsday cannon it's justifiable. For next to no points, entropic strike scarabs are going to be an amazing tank and termie counter, and the veil of darkness cryptek with 5 necron lords and an overlord, all with staffs of light, is going to be the bane of power armour. Double or even triple dethmark squads looks like a vicious combination, although you do then lose the ability to take triarch praetorians or lychguard. Monoliths lose a lot of durability because of the change in living metal, and I doubt we'll see anyone foregoing melta weaponry because of the c'tan lord of flame power after reading it.

 

As a side note, anyone feel the death ray entry is excruciatingly vague in its wording?

[Commander S. Caesare]

Whats good is that there is no need for melta spam, and my assault squads have a chance against wraiths. thank god that the Come Back rule is denerfed.

Anyway, overall, bolters are able to play a bigger role, and autocannons could actually to something in the game (for those of u with the AC preds).

Lascannons are SMs weapon of choice for the bigger guys, of course.

Missiles, especially frag, can now have a chance of crowd control, actually killing necys. Krak, neh. Same ol.

Flamers, I think, can actually work. If the opponent is a warrior spam, well, perfect. Heavy flamer=ideal. Baal Pred, best ride ever.

Assault Cannon. okay, but i go with the 'eavy bolter.

 

Now, what could I do to take out a Pylon? Ive lost too many Hawks and Ravens to those things.

And the Nexi (concerning in apoc. the grid and the other multi-nexi frustrate me)?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm actually a little wary of going full 'Mech against a 'Cron army. Tachyon Arrows and the Doomsday Ark will cut apart Land Raiders, Predators, and Vindicators, and even if they don't, the 'Crons can also fairly easily prevent any of our tanks (save a Raider) from shooting with just their small arms. Add in the ridiculousness that Scarab swarms can pull against a Raider, and I think it might be time for the Space Marine community to go back to take mixed, half-mech armies.

 

I'm dead serious here, too. I know that 'Mech is the king of the meta right now, but the glancing abilities of Gauss weapons combined with the various high-powered anti-tank guns that the 'Crons are getting makes me nervous. I, for one, would rather put a double-lascannon Devastator combat squad on the table against them then any version of a Predator; you're more likely to get your money's worth from the Devs. That being said, as we already discussed, close combat is where Marines will make their money as an army against Necrons, so a mechanized wing to get our CC specialists into them quick is still important. A Land Raider filled with Honor Guard, Vanguard, or a Command Squad will still spell certain death for any unit outside of the Lychguard; just be sure you're moving pell-mell forward before one of the Gauss weapons gets lucky and rolls a 6 to immobilize it.

 

I also see an increase in the use of Dreadnoughts. Sure, they can get stunlocked like tanks can, but if you've got a DCCW and extra armor, you can still get stuck in and punch up some Necrons. Ironclads are appealling to me especially thanks to the extra attack, Move Through Cover, and offensive grenades from the FAL (there are several items in the Necron armory that create terrain issues).

 

And I'm going to take another moment to harp on the importance of the Thunderfire Cannon. Everything I said before still rings true after a solid couple of read-throughs of the Necron Codex, but considering the kind of lunacy that massed Scarac Swarms brings to the table, I think it bears mentioning again. Swarms are also Vulnerable to Blasts, and the Surface Detonation rounds are S6 -- double the Toughness of the Scarabs, so you can ID the bases. Plus, the Scarabs are on big bases, so on a scatter, you're still likely to catch some.

 

Oh, and last thing -- I think some folks need to go back and take a look at the C'tan Shard power concerning flamers and meltas again. It's not just a Gets Hot! roll, so He'stan's twinlinking shennanigans are no defense. It is literally "roll a die every time a flame-based weapon fires and on a roll of a 1 it goes away."

[Drahazar]

its called lord of fire and it is a 12inch range. every time a flame type weapon or melta is shooting in that 12inch bubble you roll a d6 on a 1 the mini is removed as a casualty and on a vehicle it is a weapon destroyed result and the shoots are lost so you do not get to continue the damge roll at all and the mini dose not get a armur save.

 

Assualt squads have no chance against wraiths with whip coils. Wraiths have rending and 3Att Str 6 3invul They will smack Assualt squads silly.

 

Scarabs are not that scary they are not jet bikes they are beasts so no uber cover save. They are swarms and are T3 they are not going to be that hard to get rid of with flamers or blast templates.

[DerekLee688]

I think trying to counter necrons with Lascannons is bad news, for C:SM anyways. I think my all commers list would look like 1/2 vehicles, 1/4 mech. tac/sternguard/honorguard, and 1/4 bike.

 

LC/HB has always looked interesting to me. An ap:2 TL weapon + 6 HB shots for anti personnel (IG, nids, tau, ork, eldar,etc.) but not anti MEQ. I always have 2-4 heavy bolters on my typhoon formations.

 

HB attack bikes should be looked at if nothing more than anti necron tailored units, not that I'm suggesting anyone tailor to beat them. They do have HB for troops on their way to krak grenade vehicles. MMAB are just useful in all commers list and still have krak grenades for vehicles.

[Blitzkrieg861]

I played against them last weekend...

 

My List:

 

Mephy

3 x 5 ASM w/ Razorback w/ TL-AC

9 DC w/ PF and LRR w/ EA

3 x Baal Pred w/ TL-AC and HB

Pred w/ AC and LC

 

His (roughly):

 

Imotek I think... night fighting random lightning dude

Destroyer Lord

3 x 5 Warriors w/ Cryptek

1 x 5 Immortals

2 x 3 Heavy Destroyers and 2 Destroyers

I think 10 Scarab Bases

2 x Monolith

 

First things first, I didn't know Mephy could insta kill scarabs and he lost his armor to an unlucky roll (only 2 saves!!!) and Monolith's are soooo much easier to kill now. It seems to have bastion type guns on it and while they're only S4 they can still glance on 6's. Being able to be glanced on 6's in general does suck but as it is now, I think you'd need at least 10 guys from 24" to consider a glance as a possibility so this wasn't too bad to deal with. The night fighting seemed worse on his end than mine as the only reliable anti-mech he had was the Destroyers and they weren't in range for the most part due to my mobility. The lightning on the other hand made me cringe each time it was time to go. It's not reliable but randomly smashing a unit with S8 (and side armor) sucks too. He also had an ability to use the WBB rule and get D3 wounds instead of 1. Pretty nifty.

 

They crypteks have some nifty things but I think the best is whatever he used to deepstrike a warrior unit... more a teleport mid game. Was pretty cool but with a unit that size it wasn't doing anything in a hurry, however, may still be something to watch out for, I don't know which units can do this though.

 

Scarabs really aren't too scary, depending on your army. I play mech BA and I think mech DE / E would be fine too as they can move 12" with nearly everything and still be very effective of course meaning 6's to hit and only half of those hits will even drop your armor. Shouldn't be too hard for most marines to take these guys out, even our lowly scouts. Slower mech armies perhaps not... I would like to play against those wraiths but I can't see fighting them being much different than say Juggernaughts or TWC. Dump lots of shots or low AP shots into them and I think they'd drop. A CC unit may due well too as they'd go first. Scarabs though... naw, just don't deploy on the very front line if they have first turn, try to move as much as you can and a bunch of shots will kill them. They're only T3 with W3 and a 5+ save I think. Yeah they're beasts but this isn't something everyone has seen before (TWC, Raveners). Don't fret brothers, they are a cool army and I'm sure some powerhouse builders will arise but we will beat them down and purge them in righteous fire.

[DarkGuard]

To be honest, while I'm very impressed with your BA army, very fearsome, his Necron army doesn't strike me as being that great. I'm not 100% sure of all the tricks Crypteks can do, I know there's one that can allow his unit to re-roll one D6 roll every phase, and of course the teleporting one, but the point is those Warrior squads are too small, especially against Razorspam. Two of your Razorbacks would wipe one of his squads out easily, and that's it, no reanimation because the squad's dead, even if the Cryptek is still around. Same with the Immortals, but their tougher to kill with a better save, same with the Destroyers who also have a higher toughness than Warriors.

 

Monoliths aren't as hard as they were as they are now vulnerable to melta and chainfists etc, and although their strength test ability is nasty they have to be really close to use it which opens them to melta.

 

To be completely honest, I don't feel that's the most competitive list a Necron player can bring to the table. Me and one of my mates were discussing this last night, and half the stuff that will make Necrons competitive isn't released yet. Stalkers will be nasty with the equivalent of 2 MMs on a walker platform, plus the ability to twin-link the army's weapons in the right circumstances. Doomscythes also look nasty for anti-tank firepower, while the other Scythe of which the name I can't remember makes a fearsome transport, allowing it to carry a lot of people at high speed and chuck them back in reserve if killed. Everyone is ranting about the new Wraiths and they are nice, but their models seems to have disappeared from the GW site and new ones haven't been released yet. Basically a lot of the more competitive Necron units are not yet realised, and it may be a while before they come out, and therefore a while before we start seeing the more competitive armies. But before that I want a Tervigon kit, Necrons can wait for 2nd wave ;)

[Brother Tiberus]

... and Monolith's are soooo much easier to kill now.

...

Scarabs really aren't too scary, depending on your army.

...

 

Monoliths are now much more prone to be hit and destroyed by melta weapons (thank goodness) which I'm very thankful for.

The scarabs are a 50/50 thing. Depending on a players army (as you said) they can be avoided, but my feeling is they can be really frustrating. Trying to drive my rhino/raider into rapid fire range only to be chewed up into little pieces is not my idea of a fun time. But more mobile armies can avoid that and still get into combat. My other concern is wasting shots on them to keep my vehicles running, where I could be putting those shots to use elsewhere.

 

...

To be completely honest, I don't feel that's the most competitive list a Necron player can bring to the table.

 

This is very true, the more 'hard' elements are lacking some form of model. But I am expecting custom builds and proxies to start popping up everywhere soon.

 

I'm surprised by 2 things that no-one has touched on so far:

1. The Reanimation protocols are worse, in terms of they only come back on a 5+. BUT they are better because it says nothing about instant death and power weapons keeping them down.
   
2. The one HQ, where it is a pair of guys (the lord and bodyguard), with the counter tactics and advanced tactics rules could be very scary to play against. He can effectively cancel out USR all over the place where he needs it. My grey hunters losing acute senses for night fighting or counter attack is not a nice idea.
   

[Drahazar]

That is a poorly made Necron list. I would be more worried about a list that has the C'tan shard with writhing worldscape and Orikan the diviner. Especially for a dawn of war match heres why. Writhing worldscape makes all difficult terrian dangerous terrian and if it is already dangerous terrian then you fail on a 1 and 2 instead of just a 1.

 

Orikan has a ability that for the first turn everywhere is difficult terrian which combined with the ctan would become dangerous terrian.

 

Now when you try to come on the board and you roll a 1 for a vehicle it and things inside are dead. troops or termies would have to come out in a streight line if you roll very low or there base dose not make it all the way on the board and they die. Plus you take Crypteks with there tremour staff and all they have to do is hit you and your next movement phase its difficult terrian for you which combined with the Ctan makes it dangerous.

[DarkGuard]

1. The Reanimation protocols are worse, in terms of they only come back on a 5+. BUT they are better because it says nothing about instant death and power weapons keeping them down.
   

 

I think it may have been touched on a little, I suppose we all just accepted it and moved onto the new stuff. But you're right, this deserves a closer look as it's a massive part of the army, and has been for some time.

 

So as you say, it got worst in that they only come back on a 5+. Furthermore, if the entire unit is wiped out, they can't make roll, not even if there's a similar unit within 6". But again, as you say it can be rolled against ID and power weapons. Of course, I'm happy with this new rule, it streamlines the game somewhat. Instead of having to remember what's been hit with what and whether it's in range of a res orb and another unit and what unit it'll join it's plain and simple. The unit replenishes casualties as long as one model in the unit is alive. They're less likely to come back to live, but if they do they join that unit, be it in combat or out, and can't join another unit. Also, ICs don't count as a model in the unit as far as this is concerned, so if your Lychguard die with the Lord still alive the Lychguard can't come back. Do remember this because somewhere along the line a Necron player will try to say his IC count and roll for his dead unit. I don't like thinking the worst in someone but with some of the stuff on OR I've come to believe some people will try anything! Also remember the rule says to remove models and place them back in unit coherency, Necron units replenishing will creep forwards or backwards depending on the situation.

 

So what we have, IMO, is a better, more streamlined rule that both takes and gives to Necron players. It makes them less annoying for us as with a res orb there was half a chance they'd get back up, now it's 1/3, I prefer that by miles. But it gives them a chance as it isn't limited by the old rules or FnP style rules. To be honest, I think most Necron players will accept this, especially as Phase Out is now gone.

[Blitzkrieg861]

I also agree this was not the most competative Necron list. Honestly I was looking forward to playing against some proxied transports (I had 4 extra Rhinos layin around that could've been used to proxy) and the command barge. I would like to play against the wraiths and see what the real deal is with them. I'm looking forward to see what can be done with these guys though. Thanks for reading. Oh and +1000000 to the Tervigon kit, I don't even play my 'Nids anymore because all the nasty big bugs are proxies and that's super lame to the extreme!

[E. Severus]

I can strongely recommend everyone to take a look at the beasts of war website. They tell you everythin', really everythin' you wanna know.

From what I picked up, these are the thinggies to look out for:

As C:SM in general:

Doom Scyte= Line between two points (about 12" if I remember correctly), all units (and vehicles) under the line take as many S10 AP1 hits as the're models underneath the line, vehicles hit on the side. Meaning, that you van kill 4 tactical squads at the time with one shot. And it deepstrikes. And it's lets say... a landraider minus 75 points.

C'tan/HQ combo: Enemy treats the boad as difficult terrain on turn one, and treats all difficult as dangerous. If it already counts as dangerous that means it's on a 1 or 2 dead.

C'tan: repostition D3 units after deployement (think dawn of war)

Ghostark: fikses D3 models

Night Scyte: the price of an assault squad. But it's a razorback (11 AR)with TL Autocannons that's a skimmer.

Warscytes: S7, power weapon, 2D6 pen

 

Hordes:

Trazan the Infynet: If it kills one model it wounds every other model with that same stat in combat on a 4+ (think boyz), can also claim objectives and can cause a model to attack his own squad.

 

That's about what I remember.

[Blitzkrieg861]

I could see that guy that makes everything difficult terrain combined with the dude that makes difficult terrain dangerous as a good combo against Mech that is reserving but not all mech lists will do this. Maybe we'll see more dozer blades in the mix but how many points is this combo and what kind of list goes alongside it? Is it viable as an all comers list? I really hate people who look at my models as I'm pulling them out or look at my list and make changes to theirs so they can whipe the floor with it. It's underhanded and cowardly.

[E. Severus]

It's about 350 points all together, but the HQ isn't that bad and a C'tan can take some other ruinous powers.

Also, the combo can not only be useful against mech, but also against let's say... Dark ELdar or Assault squad heavy lists (BA come to mind).

 

The thing I'm mainly worried about is a Doom/Night Scyte heavy list. Everything, really everything (including bikes, speeders, jump infantry) is packed into skimmers with TL auto cannons, and all your models suddenly have to survive a S10 AP1 hit.

Ouch.

[DerekLee688]

Doom Scyte= Line between two points (about 12" if I remember correctly), all units (and vehicles) under the line take as many S10 AP1 hits as the're models underneath the line, vehicles hit on the side. Meaning, that you van kill 4 tactical squads at the time with one shot. And it deepstrikes. And it's lets say... a landraider minus 75 points.

 

Here's where wording gets important. Every "Unit" or every "model". Two full tac squads are 2 units and 20 models. If Doom Scythe says "any enemy unit" like C:BA's Blood Lance, then it's only two S10 AP1 hits. However, if the rule says "models", then it's however many marines are in between two points.

 

As I don't have the Necron codex, nor intend to buy one anytime soon, I'm just asking that this be confirmed.

[Something Wycked]

Doom Scyte= Line between two points (about 12" if I remember correctly), all units (and vehicles) under the line take as many S10 AP1 hits as the're models underneath the line, vehicles hit on the side. Meaning, that you van kill 4 tactical squads at the time with one shot. And it deepstrikes. And it's lets say... a landraider minus 75 points.

 

Here's where wording gets important. Every "Unit" or every "model". Two full tac squads are 2 units and 20 models. If Doom Scythe says "any enemy unit" like C:BA's Blood Lance, then it's only two S10 AP1 hits. However, if the rule says "models", then it's however many marines are in between two points.

 

As I don't have the Necron codex, nor intend to buy one anytime soon, I'm just asking that this be confirmed.

This is incorrect- there's a post here in the OR that has addressed it. A FAQ has been released in Spain that clarifies that the number of hits any unit suffers is equal to the models in that unit that are underneath the line.

 

As an example, lets say there are two Tactical squads in an assault with Necron Warriors. The Doom Scythe rolls up and draws a line through the two Tactical Squads, covering 3 models from one unit and 4 models from the other. The first unit takes 3 S10 AP1 hits, the second unit takes 4- the Necron player rolls to wound and you allocate those wounds as normal.

[breng77]

That is a poorly made Necron list. I would be more worried about a list that has the C'tan shard with writhing worldscape and Orikan the diviner. Especially for a dawn of war match heres why. Writhing worldscape makes all difficult terrian dangerous terrian and if it is already dangerous terrian then you fail on a 1 and 2 instead of just a 1.

 

This may not work, as Orikan's rules say that all models move as if in difficult terrain, and Worldscape says all difficult terrain is dangerous. Does counts as moving through DT = Difficult terrain, or just needing a roll. This needs an FAQ (which will likely be no it does not work)

 

Orikan beyond that first turn ability is pretty bad, as are Ctans (minimum 215ish points, usually more), which while the ability is good (and potentially broken in dawn of war) I think we will see more other HQ choices.

[DerekLee688]

Doom Scyte= Line between two points (about 12" if I remember correctly), all units (and vehicles) under the line take as many S10 AP1 hits as the're models underneath the line, vehicles hit on the side. Meaning, that you van kill 4 tactical squads at the time with one shot. And it deepstrikes. And it's lets say... a landraider minus 75 points.

 

Here's where wording gets important. Every "Unit" or every "model". Two full tac squads are 2 units and 20 models. If Doom Scythe says "any enemy unit" like C:BA's Blood Lance, then it's only two S10 AP1 hits. However, if the rule says "models", then it's however many marines are in between two points.

 

As I don't have the Necron codex, nor intend to buy one anytime soon, I'm just asking that this be confirmed.

This is incorrect- there's a post here in the OR that has addressed it. A FAQ has been released in Spain that clarifies that the number of hits any unit suffers is equal to the models in that unit that are underneath the line.

 

As an example, lets say there are two Tactical squads in an assault with Necron Warriors. The Doom Scythe rolls up and draws a line through the two Tactical Squads, covering 3 models from one unit and 4 models from the other. The first unit takes 3 S10 AP1 hits, the second unit takes 4- the Necron player rolls to wound and you allocate those wounds as normal.

 

Was there some consensus reached in that thread? Because it looks like a 5 page argument to me, though I didn't bother to read the whole thing, I apologize. A Spanish FAQ isn't as compelling as a GW FAQ in the online GW FAQ section.

[Something Wycked]

Was there some consensus reached in that thread? Because it looks like a 5 page argument to me, though I didn't bother to read the whole thing, I apologize. A Spanish FAQ isn't as compelling as a GW FAQ in the online GW FAQ section.

After the GW-Spain FAQ came out and settled the issue for us, yes ;) You're free to disregard GW's FAQs for other nations, of course, but the OR is accepting it.

[DerekLee688]

Not to be snarky, but if it were meant for me then it would be where I can get it, as of now, not on GW web site. Why is it Spain? Why not UK at least? For all I know the Spain FAQ is just the highest level tourney guy in GW stores calling the shots and not the GW game design staff (try not to laugh) who make the "real" errata/FAQ.