Necrons: Pre-emptive Strike

[breng77]

This is inaccurate- there's no possible way it can hit 36 Marines, or even 30. The line of effect is 3d6", so at most, if you line up 19 Marines base to base in a perfectly straight line AND the Necron player rolls boxcars for his range roll and he starts the line in the center of the first Marine in line, he can hit all 19.

 

Actually it is possible to hit more than 19 (probably not 36 but I was exaggerating), just now I covered part of 16 of the small round bases with a 9" line so you are looking at the possibility of around 30-32 with an 18" roll. This does assume that your opponent is an idiot and lines his guys up just perfectly (your 19 assumes I think that the bases are in a straight line at which point 18 guys = 18", but it is possible to set up the bases in a slight staggered patter so that they touch, can all be on the same line, and are far closer together than 1". That said my point was the times this is going to happen (in reality) are far fewer than the times you net like 3 marines.

[E. Severus]

Alright, a lot of discussion about the deathray. But even without that thinggy, it's still a fearsome codex. Especially the scarabs are nast, they take off an armour save or one point of armour on the roll of a 4+. Think about a landraider that remained stationary who's assaulted by 10 scarabs on turn one (they're beasts). That means 60hits. 30 points of armour on all sides is gone --> dead landraider for about 150pts

[Stickeh]

Like I said previously scarabs are nasty, especially with a potential assault move of 24" (beasts). I can see a lot of necron armies crammed full with fast attack options, what with destroyers, heavy destroyers, scarabs and wraiths all occupying the same slot in the FOC. I can see myself taking 2 units of wraiths as a melee counter with the third slot being taken up by scarabs. Leave the anti tank to gauss spam, monoliths, tachyon arrows and the now-standard doom scythe. It still leaves a lot of room for elites, which I find myself quite underwhelmed with (apart from triarch stalkers).

[DerekLee688]

Just covering all the bases, gauss still glance land raiders to death, Monolith gate, potental 24" super scarab movement, mech. transports, and deep strike death ray. Necrons appear to be a lightning army now, talk about codex revision.

[breng77]

I'm not sure the doom scyth will get much play...It seems awesome, and it can be. However, it is more likely than not going to kill a few models and then get shot down. AV 11 really hurts it.

[Something Wycked]

Especially with how close it has to be to use its weapon effectively (12"). Unless its attacking an isolated unit of yours (and why do you have an isolated unit, anyways?) it will be in danger of being in range of all your anti-tank.

[breng77]

pretty much, I think part of it will also depend on the model, if it is low like an eldar skimmer (doubtful) it will see more play. If it is a "flyer" like the Storm Raven/Vendetta/DE fighters/bombers, then I don't think we will see it much as all because it will never be able to hide or get cover, at which point it becomes a one shot wonder. It will come in Shoot its ray, and then die, and much like the vindicator, 1 weapon destroyed result pretty much handicaps the whole unit. For its points... not all that great. If the length of the like it produced was not random (or not totally random, i.e. 12" line, or 6"+2D6..) then it would be better, but it is an unreliable unit that is pretty expensive.

[DarkGuard]

Perhaps that's what will help it though. breng77 you draw comparisons with the Vindicator, another one shot wonder, as unless you play it well you expose side armour going for the shot, and a weapon destroyed result effectively neutralises it. So perhaps instead of being the killing machine everyone thinks it will be, instead it'll be a handy bullet magnet to protect the Ghost Arks and Stalkers and Doomsday Arks. People will fear that gun, and know it can do masses of damage (especially if you're playing it as hits everything in the unit), and will want to take it down, even if they know it might not hit many units. I imagine it's a fast skimmer, and so with a turbo-boost move it could prove a bit resilient and take firepower away from other units, allowing them to better get into position.

[DerekLee688]

Rate the following in order of most to least viable for "all commers list": Lasscannons, Autocannons, Missile launchers, Multi melta, melta(MG/Combi), melta bombs, and the good old krak.

 

Melta(12"/6") is now the bane of Monoliths and is most abundant. Tac. squad can put out two non heavy shots, and bike squads can put out 2 melta guns, one combi, and one bike MM.

 

Krak grenade: comes standard on all non TDA bodies; scouts, bikes/attack bikes/scout bikes, jumpers, and tac's/sternguard. Mobility from bike/turbo-boost, jump pack, scouting scout bikes, deepstrike pod, and rhino rush.

 

Missile Launcher: Cost effective choice for all slots except HQ, effective vs. AV12 and under, effective vs. horde and MEQ, matched range with las cannon.

 

Multi Melta: Available on most durable platform(extra armor landraider) or fastest options deep strike Legion of the damned, MM-attack bikes, and land speeders.

 

Las cannon: most expensive, but usually most accurate, longest range, strongest power, AP2. Bane of Mephiston, Draigo wing, AV:13 spam, infantry without invuln, or T:4 multi wound creatures/characters. Available on mobile and non-mobile platforms: Dev's/SG, Razorback's, Predators, and Land raiders, mobility costs extra.

 

Auto-cannon: solid all around anti-transport weapon with minimum loss of power from ML, same range, and most shots of all listed AT weapons. However transports and vehicles of daemon hunters and necrons are significantly more durable, FNP is more prevalent, it is not MEQ weapon. Out shined by GK Psy-rifleman.

 

I'm a bit iffy putting MM above LC. I'd compare either combi-pred or tri-lass pred vs. 3xMMAB squad. Price/survivability/leathalness to make up my mind.

[breng77]

Perhaps that's what will help it though. breng77 you draw comparisons with the Vindicator, another one shot wonder, as unless you play it well you expose side armour going for the shot, and a weapon destroyed result effectively neutralises it. So perhaps instead of being the killing machine everyone thinks it will be, instead it'll be a handy bullet magnet to protect the Ghost Arks and Stalkers and Doomsday Arks. People will fear that gun, and know it can do masses of damage (especially if you're playing it as hits everything in the unit), and will want to take it down, even if they know it might not hit many units. I imagine it's a fast skimmer, and so with a turbo-boost move it could prove a bit resilient and take firepower away from other units, allowing them to better get into position.

 

The problem with that though is that an AV 11 vehicle does not make a great bullet magnet, it is also more expensive that a vindicator. It also has a shorter range. I'm really betting you won't see it much in most lists as you have better options and not a lot of points. Look at it this way. If you are not playing Mech, it is going to die pretty quickly. If you are playing mech, most of the vehichles are expensive. I think it is more likely you'll be seeing Night scyths, Annhilation barges, Command Barges, and Stalkers.

[Captain Idaho]

Armies with Lychguard in Nightscythes can benefit from a Doom Scythe actually, since attack either may mean the other surives, especially with Night Fighting being forced upon us. Plus Doom Scythes can deep strike and fire all their weapons...

 

Which loosely brings me onto a tactic we should use against Necrons. If we are playing the shooting game we should push at least a single vehicle unit forward so we can utilise the Search Light effectively. Necrons can inflict Night Fighting on us for at least a turn which will be a pain and grant them a turn's grace on us. A forward Rhino can potentially spot some opponents for us to ensure we get some firepower off at our choice targets.

[Drahazar]

I think we will see at least one death ray of doom in the list. Most likely they will deep strike it in shoot do a bunch of damage and then watch it blow up. I also see monoliths deepstrikeing in and then teleporting scarabs in that where hiding in a corner so they can assualt immediatly ripping face. So much for shooting them when you keep them in the corner of a table and use the SC to give them stealth incase they do get shot. Also putting Trazyn in a command barge and flying over units with his staff and last minuite objective capture.

[DarkGuard]

Scarabs already have stealth as they are swarms, they can't benefit from it again :P.

 

Trazyn in a Command Barge is an idea I haven't heard before, can he do that? If so, could be nasty, harder to kill him (if it wasn't hard enough) and as you said harder to deny him objectives.

[breng77]

I think we will see at least one death ray of doom in the list. Most likely they will deep strike it in shoot do a bunch of damage and then watch it blow up. I also see monoliths deepstrikeing in and then teleporting scarabs in that where hiding in a corner so they can assualt immediatly ripping face. So much for shooting them when you keep them in the corner of a table and use the SC to give them stealth incase they do get shot. Also putting Trazyn in a command barge and flying over units with his staff and last minuite objective capture.

 

1.) I disagree, I don't think we will see any deathrays in most competitive lists. It is too random for the price. It could kill a lot but it is just as likely to kill barely anything. It is pricey so it needs to basically squad wipe a tactical squad or kill a land raider to make suiciding it useful.

 

2.) Units cannot assault after portaling through the monolith as it counts as troops disembarking from a moving transport. SO once the portal through you get a turn to shoot/ assault them first. So if you portal them too close any unit with a flamer will eat them.

 

3.) Trazryn's staff only works with wounds caused in close combat, so until FAQ'd otherwise won't do anything with sweep attacks, though he can last turn capture. That said you can get a mobile scoring unit for less.

 

Which loosely brings me onto a tactic we should use against Necrons. If we are playing the shooting game we should push at least a single vehicle unit forward so we can utilise the Search Light effectively.

 

Agreed, especially against solar pulse this makes search lights have no down side as all our vehicles will be in view to begin with.

[Drahazar]

Disagree with you on his staff as it says in a sweep attack he can use all strength bonus and special abilities from close combat weapons so he can. But This is not the thread for that discussion especially since it specfically says anyway.

 

you can assualt if a vhicle moves at 6ins which is combat speed and portaling in a unit has that effect as it says count as the vehicle has moved at combat speed. If it was cruiseing speed which a lith can't move at any way then they could not assualt.

 

depends on your area and how you role as to if the Death ray is effective for my area and the armys I face it will make its points very easily.

[breng77]

you can assualt if a vhicle moves at 6ins which is combat speed and portaling in a unit has that effect as it says count as the vehicle has moved at combat speed. If it was cruiseing speed which a lith can't move at any way then they could not assualt.

 

Ummm... no you cannot. Unless a vehicle is open-topped or an assault vehicle you cannot assault if the vehicle moves you cannot assault. See p. 67 of the rulebook "if a vehicle has already moved...After disembarking, these models may shoot (counting as moving), but may not assault."

 

Disagree with you on his staff as it says in a sweep attack he can use all strength bonus and special abilities from close combat weapons so he can. But This is not the thread for that discussion especially since it specfically says anyway.

 

Pretty sure FAQ will rule otherwise but I can see your argument (though I think that is more for things like the warscythe. But this can go either way as the wounds caused by the sweep attack are not caused in CC...)

 

depends on your area and how you role as to if the Death ray is effective for my area and the armys I face it will make its points very easily.

 

Every meta is different, but on a national scale I don't think we will see it much as it will only get one shot and for almost 200 points that is really not worth it. (also depends on if you play it as only hits models on the line, if you play the whole unit gets hit then sure its worth it.)

[Drahazar]

we dedcided it was just minis under the line we are just not sure how wide the line is. Is it as wide as the gun on the mini which is not out yet is it a inch a thin paper line or was wide as the minis base who knows.

 

Oh yeah so used to play DE (since 3rd) used to just jumping out and assualting.

 

well not just the warscythe, all the weapons in the wargear section pluss all the SC's with there special weapons. but FAQ will decide it GW will surprize one of us like they did with GK Falchions which are two close combat weapons but not :lol:

[breng77]

well not just the warscythe, all the weapons in the wargear section pluss all the SC's with there special weapons. but FAQ will decide it GW will surprize one of us like they did with GK Falchions which are two close combat weapons but not

 

Ture, I tend to lean toward those things not working until they are ruled to. No point planning around things that may not work. I used the Scythe as an example. The problem with the Staff is that it states wounds caused in Close combat, so even if the special rule is applied the wounds are not caused in close combat, and as such would have no effect. (or at least that is how I read it)

 

As for the width of the line...geometrically speaking lines have no width, so it is safe to assume that in this case the width of a thread is probably close enough to the correct width. Anything wider than that would technically be defined as a plane.

[Drahazar]

yeah I can see that as well just the sweep attacks you roll to hit and would just like in CC but it matters not FAQ will come eventually. We are going with a line unless it becomes a plane which I am sure GW will still call a line lol just would be nice if he put in the rules if it had width. Hows the line on the D Cannon for eldar is it a thin line or dose it have width?

[breng77]

All the lines I know of (JAWs, D-Cannon, etc.) are thin lines.

 

As for the sweep attack you actually roll much close to shooting than to close combat (i.e. no comparision of weapon skill) it is (I believe) move at combat speed = 3+ to hit, faster = 4+ to hit. You get a maximum of 3 swings (no matter how many attacks you would normally get). But yeah I'm sure an FAQ will resolve it eventually.

[rocdocta]

As a necron player my MVP combos are:

 

MVP - Unit

3x10 scarab units

- just 1 unit will wipe most other units out over 2 turns. they hug cover for a 3+ save, then pop out and SHAZAAM! They do ok vs marines, but vs DE they just shred them. Also forces the mech to move or be consumed in combat. Each unit can put out 50 attacks on the charge. As they can be replenished/added to by spyders, they are a good unit. Never look down on them as merely being swarms. they are getting a fearsome reputation for a good reason.

 

MVP - CC item

mind shackle scarabs on a lord

- the ability to steal a models attacks on a failed LD test (at 3D6) and turn them on his unit/himself is gold. D3 per controlled model per scarab. you can get 5 lords in the royal court...i have wiped out terminator units using 5 scarab lords without the lords needing to really fight.

 

MVP - Tactical

writhing world scapes on a Ctan

- to dissuade people from assaulting your units or entering cover this is gold. i use 2 gun arks and a lot of firepower. Makes people do some very hard choices.

 

 

MVP - Wrecking someones army

Command Barges with a warscythe lord

- taken in pairs and whipping around the battlefield. these guys always cause the enemy great problems. they have a 4+ cover save and are only hit on 6s in combat for flat out. these will tear up targets of opportunity such as tanks in the midfield and then long fang fire support etc in the rear. AV13 + flat out is surprisingly reilisilient. Remember even moving 12 in means nothing to being hit. he gets 3 attacks hitting on a 3+ or 4+.

 

MVP - Deadly unit

Traveller Lord +Barge + machine control

- The most potent combo of a lord on a barge. He moves 24 forwards and gets a tank/wwalker etc to fire on your troops with all possible weapons on a 3+. Next turn he flies over a tank etc and probably wrecks it. Plus he does machine control again. Last game the traveller accounted for 2 Dark eldar gunships, 3 transports and a small transport. fly over attacks, control, and when shot down, assault.

 

MVP - Big gun

Annihilation Barge

a large template str9 Ap1, 72 in range weapon?! yes please! sure it is weaker (str 7 ap4 small template) if you move. but clear the fire lanes get a writhing Ctan and watch people fall over. Be very care of this combo. infiltratotrs and drop pods scare the hell out of this thing. But. if the drop pod melta misses, chances are they are toast from the return fire.

[Hellios]

As a necron player my MVP combos are:

 

MVP - Unit

3x10 scarab units

- just 1 unit will wipe most other units out over 2 turns. they hug cover for a 3+ save, then pop out and SHAZAAM! They do ok vs marines, but vs DE they just shred them. Also forces the mech to move or be consumed in combat. Each unit can put out 50 attacks on the charge. As they can be replenished/added to by spyders, they are a good unit. Never look down on them as merely being swarms. they are getting a fearsome reputation for a good reason.

 

I would point out that Dark Eldar are also capable of shredding T3 swarms :D so it goes both ways and depends on how both armies are constructed and used on the whole.

[Captain Idaho]

Scarabs are scary against our Vehicles and power fist weilding troops, but a few plasma shots alone will shred units with instant kill. A plasma cannon will cause murder on the unit!

 

As an Honour Guard player I would even be happy to use my Honour Guard to assault them, since between my Master and Champion's Relic Blades I can easily enough account for over half the unit. The other 4 models get 20 attacks hitting on 3+ and wounding on a 3+, which can easily enough cause a further 8 or 9 wounds, meaning a measily 10 S3 attacks striking in return. If in base contact with the Master they only hit on a 5+ too!

 

No, Scarabs aren't that scary for me. They are designed to mess up with the mechanised Meta game though, plus all those Thunder Hammer Terminators and the like.

[Algesan]

Was there some consensus reached in that thread? Because it looks like a 5 page argument to me, though I didn't bother to read the whole thing, I apologize. A Spanish FAQ isn't as compelling as a GW FAQ in the online GW FAQ section.

After the GW-Spain FAQ came out and settled the issue for us, yes :P You're free to disregard GW's FAQs for other nations, of course, but the OR is accepting it.

 

Heh, that isn't a shining recommendation, a lot of the "gurus" in OR cannot parse Standard English and often quote 4th Edition rules directly as their "support" for interpretations of 5th Edition rules. A FAQ written in Spanish to correct a potential mistranslation in Spanish rules which is then translated back into English isn't the best source.

 

Now that might still be the right interpretation, but since we don't have any of the models available, I think I can hold out for a FAQ. Heh, considering GW model selling greed, what do you think is going to happen if GW does nerf the Death Ray in the FAQ? So, do I buy a 175 point model with AV11 just to get a Tesla Destructor? Or do I buy the 90 point model with QS and a Tesla Destructor. Hmmm. Although it probably won't matter depending on the price point since both flyers will be in one box as variant builds.

[Algesan]

I played against them last weekend...

 

My List:

 

Mephy

3 x 5 ASM w/ Razorback w/ TL-AC

9 DC w/ PF and LRR w/ EA

3 x Baal Pred w/ TL-AC and HB

Pred w/ AC and LC

 

His (roughly):

 

Imotek I think... night fighting random lightning dude

Destroyer Lord

3 x 5 Warriors w/ Cryptek

1 x 5 Immortals

2 x 3 Heavy Destroyers and 2 Destroyers

I think 10 Scarab Bases

2 x Monolith

 

<snip>

 

My first game I stomped a similar list to yours. It had 10 ASM with jump packs, a StormRaven, DC Dread & Mephiston and the triple Baals. Some Terminators with TH/SS for deep striking.

 

Imotekh

OL w/ Warscythe in Barge

20xNW on foot with Lord with Orb (2 squads)

10xNW in a Ghost Ark

10xNI w/ Cryptek with Solar Pulse (2 squads, one with Tesla, one with Gauss)

10xScarabs

2xSpyders

 

Problem was that there were too many bodies to deal with and Night Fighting cramped their style. Imotekh lost ihis storm on turn 2 and I didn't bother with the Solar Pulses (mistake on my part), and fumbled with a couple of units (including the Scarabs partly, do NOT let Mephiston & Blood Claw Dread charge them, although they did take out a Baal and several of the DC squad). The only fun thing was wrecking the StormRaven with Imotekh's lightning on turn one.

 

What needs to be worried about is multiple threats lists. The Scarabs cannot be ignored, plus with two 20 Warrior squads a lot of firepower can be laid down and even on the assault those squads will get their licks in. So you cannot ignore the Warriors. Then the Ghost Ark is skimming along and can shoot three different targets (including the embarked Warriors) while replacing D3 losses to the foot squads. Plus the WS Overlord screaming around doing Sweep attacks. Target overload and as the Necron, you have to be ready to take advantage of what your opponent does.

 

Biggest flaw with your opponent was trying to run some kind of MSU list. Good idea for Marines with their flexibility, but not with Necrons who have the exact same weapon choices if they field minimum or maximum squads. In my fiddling around, the only potentially valid Necron MSU list IMO is the nine Scythe list with six squads of 5xImmortals in Night Scythes plus three Doom Scythes. In that case I don't give a flip about the AV11 or the Death Ray, I'm going for nine Tesla Destructors on Fast Skimmer platforms. S7, AP- Assault 4 and IIRC all of them twinlinked BS4, plus the Arc rule.

 

Yes Marines can have an easier time against Orks than Necrons but you forget that just a handful or Orks get more attacks than an entire unit of Necron Warriors!

 

Multiples of light AV transports alongside other armoured units will be a challenge to beat against Necrons, so don't be afraid of taking armoured vehicles against Necrons just because they have Gauss weapons.

 

IMO, the biggest thing people keep missing comes from the WBB rule, especially with Ghost Ark support for Warrior squads. That is a lot of firepower for suppression and with big squads supported by an Orb they are hard to kill. Sure, it isn't all that hard, but if you are killing the Warriors with your AT weapons, then you aren't targeting the Ghost Arks or Barges or Scarabs. If you are going for the Scarabs, then you are ignoring other things.

 

AP4 weapons really aren't an answer. I'm sorry, way too easy to get cover, most especially in the NOVA terrain meta. Even Scarabs get harder to kill since they get a cover save bonus against all that ID/Blast firepower on the way in.

 

I think one of the most successful current builds (give our lack of models) will be your basic "phalanx" with big Orb supported Warrior squads on foot, Ghost Arks with embarked squads in support, Annihilation Barges for firepower, Overlord/War Scythe/Command Barge and a some Scarabs with Spyder support. All of it closing under the cover of Solar Pulse Night Fighting.

 

The idea of running one Rhino w/ Searchlight forward is a pretty good one though as long as you get close enough to highlight them.