Necrons: Pre-emptive Strike

[Something Wycked]

Heh, that isn't a shining recommendation, a lot of the "gurus" in OR cannot parse Standard English and often quote 4th Edition rules directly as their "support" for interpretations of 5th Edition rules.

:P :P

 

Funny, that hasn't been my experience with the OR. The Gurus parse Standard English using their PhD's and if someone makes a silly mistake like quoting 4th ed rules, the group corrects it. Its a pool of knowledge that everyone contributes to; of course there will be people who post incorrect information (like I have done a number of times) but the group corrects the mistakes and we settle on the truth of the matter.

 

AP4 weapons really aren't an answer. I'm sorry, way too easy to get cover, most especially in the NOVA terrain meta. Even Scarabs get harder to kill since they get a cover save bonus against all that ID/Blast firepower on the way in.

I guess I'm lucky then for bringing as many Heavy Incinerators as I can fit in the list, regardless of opponent :P Multiple hits, ignoring cover, inflicting ID wounds that are doubled... Its a beautiful thing. Even a HF or two in regular Marine lists will be a scary thing for the Scarabs.

 

Imotekh

OL w/ Warscythe in Barge

20xNW on foot with Lord with Orb (2 squads)

10xNW in a Ghost Ark

10xNI w/ Cryptek with Solar Pulse (2 squads, one with Tesla, one with Gauss)

10xScarabs

2xSpyders

What is the point level of this list?

[DarkGuard]

AP4 weapons really aren't an answer. I'm sorry, way too easy to get cover, most especially in the NOVA terrain meta. Even Scarabs get harder to kill since they get a cover save bonus against all that ID/Blast firepower on the way in.

 

So I'll guess I'll leave the heavy flamers at the home use hellfire rounds instead of kraken bolts. Seriously, everyone knows how easy it is to get cover in this game, it's nothing new. But I'd still prefer to bring some AP4 weapons because there will be times when the Necrons are out of cover, when the can't get to cover, or when cover may actually be worst than their armour save (not likely I know). Also, the vast majority of AP4 weapons actually have a good RoF which is what is needed to negate cover. Rather the statement should be load up on RoF weapons, preferably of an AP4 nature.

 

Also, it's no surprise to me that Necron MSU is unlikely to really work well. One major thing is that when the entire unit is destroyed you lose all your Reanimation Protocol tokens, so fielding MSU will hamper your ability to reanimate as it'll be easier to wipe our entire units of Necrons and prevent them getting up. In big units that task is harder and they are less likely to all be wiped out and should get their roll. For example 5 Necron Warriors are killed in one. If it was a 5 man unit they're all dead, if it were a 10 man unit then a couple should get up, unless they run of course.

[amberclad87]

So I haven't played in a couple of months and the other night was looking for my first game against the new necron codex. A buddy of mine proceeds to pull out this nasty thing at 2000 points.

 

2 Overlords on barges w/ warsythes

2 royal courts w/ 3 crypteks each. they have tremorstaves, the lance thingys, and 2 solar pulses.

2 squads of 9 warriors in ghost arks

1 sqaud of imortals. 10 strong I think

7 deathmarks

1 monolith

2 squads of heavy destryers. 3 strong

 

I used an MSU space wolf list with long fangs, typhoon speeders, and rifleman dreds.

 

I won't do a Batrep, but the punch line goes, I got steam rolled! Part of it was due to my rustiness and not knowing really what necrons do but i did learn a hell of a lot so I hope this helps. His tactics were to zoom up my flanks with the barges, keep the deatmarks w/ 2 attached crypteks in reserve and push every thing else forward. First 2 turns he used night fight with solar pulses. heavy destroyers stayed in backfield and picked off my transports. The crypteks he had with the deathmarks have an AP 1 flamer and because the deatmarks can pick a unit to wound on a 2+, they get that also. So watch out for AP 1 flamers that wound on a 2+! He also was portal-ing them around via the monolith. Overlords were flying over my stuff doing sweep attacks.

 

-SEARCH LIGHTS! Don't forget them. My opponent forced the first 2 turns being night fight on his turn only. I for the most part forgot my searchlights and this basically eliminated my long range anti-tank.

 

-I think if you get in there face and engage them in CC, then you'll be doing good. I think getting in to a shooting war with them is a losing battle.

 

-I guess JAWS doesn't work against overlords, for all you SW players. They still get there ever living roll which is annoying. It's in the FAQ I guess.

 

-You need to pack melta weapons to take down any of there vehicles. I think relying on missles and lascannons won't work well seeing as you need to get some pretty good rolls to do anything. And you can't rely on the shake/ stun lock tactic seeing as they have living metal on all their tanks. So you need to put them down! And melta does that best.

 

-I think if you expect to sit in a comfy parking lot of vehicles and blast these guys off the board, you'll be in for a rude awakening!

[DarkGuard]

Hmmm, a lot of that seems fishy.

 

You say he extended Night Fight? But he can only do that with Imotekh the Stormlord IIRC, and he does not have a warscythe. If he was using two bog-standard Overlords he shouldn't have been able to do that. Also, I just checked the FAQ, and no mentioned about reanimation protocols allowed to be taken vs Jaws, I remember at my LGS after a heated debate about it we decided that as RP/EL says "casualty", and Jaws says "removed from play", you don't get RP/EL, you have just been sucked down a massive fissure after all!

 

Some of the Royal Court/Cyptek stuff looks fishy as well. It specifically says in the FAQ that Cypteks can't start the game joined the Deathmarks as they can't Deep Strike, while I believe Deathmarks must. I believe they can join later on though, but he shouldn't have attached them in Reserve.

 

You also say that all of his Crypteks had tremor staves? I'm pretty sure they can't take a Solar Pulse then, wrong discipline. And they can only have one Solar Pulse per unit? Was it more like one Harbinger of Destruction with Eldritch Lance and Solar Pulse alongside two Harbingers of Transmogrification with tremorstaves? That would have been a legal config, though the solar pulses would have been pointless without Imotekh. And if he was using Imotekh, Imotekh doesn't have a warscythe.

 

I don't know, apart from possibly the Crypteks the list checks out fine, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing about the Lords getting EL against Jaws, I'm pretty sure they shouldn't, and the Crypteks shouldn't have started the game attached to the Deathmarks. In future, ask him to clarify everything and show you where it says, no offence intended but it's the best thing to do with a new book, often people read things and interpret them incorrectly as well, and make sure they're up to date with the FAQ.

 

As for tactics, while melta may be the more reliable way to take out their vehicles, the problem is they've likely got to where they need to be unless you're using a Storm or a Drop Pod, therefore lascannons and at a stretch missile launchers should still be taken against them to prevent them from advancing too far, if you strand them in their deployment zone they're very likely to be out of range.

[amberclad87]

Sorry for the confusion with the crypteks, it was 2 courts with 3 crypteks each. each court had a different guy with harbinger of despair, harbinger of destruction, and harbinger of transmorgification. I haven't even looked at the FAQ yet, so I will have to do that. The point with the lascannons and missiles is to not rely on them completely but get more of a mix of them with melta weapons.

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for that clarification, looks like a legal list then, but he shouldn't have been doing Night Fighting shenanigans without Imotekh, shouldn't have deep striked in Cypteks with Deathmarks, and shouldn't have been rolling RP/EL against Jaws.

 

Also, every list, no matter what it's up against, should have a healthy balance of long-range anti-tank and melta weapons, so it shouldn't prove too much of an issue for list building as most balanced lists should have this already.

[amberclad87]

The night fighting came from the 2 solar pulses. He used one first turn, then again on the second turn. He put the crypteks with despair with the deathmarks and they both had veil of darkness. The FAQ which I just read said that you can use the veil on the turn you come in from reserve. I do agree on the ever living thing though, I can't find anywhere that you can get that roll against removes from play effects. Aw well, useful things to know for the next time I play them.

[DarkGuard]

I'm pretty sure that Solar Pulse just removes Night Fighting rules for that one Necron player turn, it doesn't enforce it onto the opponent, although I could be wrong. I'll have to take your word for Veil of Darkness, last I knew of it it was like Gate of Infinity. I suppose it depends on whether you have to reserve the Deathmarks or not, I can't remember the ruling for that.

[Corby]

I'm pretty sure that Solar Pulse just removes Night Fighting rules for that one Necron player turn, it doesn't enforce it onto the opponent, although I could be wrong. I'll have to take your word for Veil of Darkness, last I knew of it it was like Gate of Infinity. I suppose it depends on whether you have to reserve the Deathmarks or not, I can't remember the ruling for that.

 

The solar pulse causes night fighting for your opponents shooting phase. Essentially by having 1 or 2 solar pulses in a necron list , the necron player never have to worry about going full reserve against potentially lethal shooting armies , as they can start on the board and night your shooting away. Solar pulses also mean the necron play gets several free passes when engaging you at range , giving him a strong advantage. This shooting denial plus strong ranged capabilities from necron units makes for a tough list.

[DarkGuard]

I'm pretty sure that Solar Pulse just removes Night Fighting rules for that one Necron player turn, it doesn't enforce it onto the opponent, although I could be wrong. I'll have to take your word for Veil of Darkness, last I knew of it it was like Gate of Infinity. I suppose it depends on whether you have to reserve the Deathmarks or not, I can't remember the ruling for that.

 

The solar pulse causes night fighting for your opponents shooting phase. Essentially by having 1 or 2 solar pulses in a necron list , the necron player never have to worry about going full reserve against potentially lethal shooting armies , as they can start on the board and night your shooting away. Solar pulses also mean the necron play gets several free passes when engaging you at range , giving him a strong advantage. This shooting denial plus strong ranged capabilities from necron units makes for a tough list.

 

I must have missed that bit last time I flicked through the Codex then, my bad. Of course, that begs the question as to why to take Imotekh, possibly cost? :)

[amberclad87]

I must have missed that bit last time I flicked through the Codex then, my bad. Of course, that begs the question as to why to take Imotekh, possibly cost? dry.gif

 

I asked that same question about Imotekh. Pure night fight hinders the necrons as much as the opponent, yet people rave about him

[Driftster]

I must have missed that bit last time I flicked through the Codex then, my bad. Of course, that begs the question as to why to take Imotekh, possibly cost? dry.gif

 

I asked that same question about Imotekh. Pure night fight hinders the necrons as much as the opponent, yet people rave about him

 

except it doesnt hinder them because they are a mid range army, limiting their long range capability doesnt do much if any bad to a majotity of Necron lists... its much like night fight to an ork list..

 

the major counter for crons imo is either superior range and sheer volume of fire to do the job, or closing the gap and getting into cc... either method combined with night fight puts you right into harms way against necrons

[Corby]

I'm pretty sure that Solar Pulse just removes Night Fighting rules for that one Necron player turn, it doesn't enforce it onto the opponent, although I could be wrong. I'll have to take your word for Veil of Darkness, last I knew of it it was like Gate of Infinity. I suppose it depends on whether you have to reserve the Deathmarks or not, I can't remember the ruling for that.

 

The solar pulse causes night fighting for your opponents shooting phase. Essentially by having 1 or 2 solar pulses in a necron list , the necron player never have to worry about going full reserve against potentially lethal shooting armies , as they can start on the board and night your shooting away. Solar pulses also mean the necron play gets several free passes when engaging you at range , giving him a strong advantage. This shooting denial plus strong ranged capabilities from necron units makes for a tough list.

 

I must have missed that bit last time I flicked through the Codex then, my bad. Of course, that begs the question as to why to take Imotekh, possibly cost? :)

 

Imotekh brings the S8 army wide lightning to the party in addition to night fighting.

[Captain Idaho]

A word on Deathmarks with attached Crypteks; yes they can start the game with them. Deathmarks do not have to deepstrike and can be placed normally or held in reserve normally.

 

This makes them pretty nasty in some circumstances, though it's worth pointing out they will likely end up close to do any real damage so you can potentially hit them back.

[DarkGuard]

A word on Deathmarks with attached Crypteks; yes they can start the game with them. Deathmarks do not have to deepstrike and can be placed normally or held in reserve normally.

 

This makes them pretty nasty in some circumstances, though it's worth pointing out they will likely end up close to do any real damage so you can potentially hit them back.

 

Thanks for the clarification mate, you're right that being so closed they'll get hit hard next turn, provided you have something nearby to hit with.

[Captain Idaho]

And they also have to de-mech you to eh! :P

[Project.2501]

@Amberclad87:

 

Aside from forgetting about your searchlights, did you at least remember to use acute senses?

[amberclad87]

I did. But when something is 30+ inches away to shoot, it's still hard to see it, even with acute senses.

[rocdocta]

Tremor staves in great numbers plus Ctan with Writhing Worldscape are causing some real problems. each tremor stave hit means the unit moves as if in difficult terrain in their turn. The Ctan makes that Dangerous terrain. 5 or 6 staves can do say 4 hits. each unit has about 10 models. Thats about 6 dead models a turn. Over 2 or 3 turns chances are that someone important may die.

 

So far i havent seen any scythes in action as they havent been released yet.

 

Last game a unit of scarabs grew by 9 in a turn for a total of 19 bases. That gave me pause for thought. As stormlord prevented my long range fire nailing it, the thought of another 9 bases next turn focused my planning.

[Corby]

Tremor staves in great numbers plus Ctan with Writhing Worldscape are causing some real problems. each tremor stave hit means the unit moves as if in difficult terrain in their turn. The Ctan makes that Dangerous terrain. 5 or 6 staves can do say 4 hits. each unit has about 10 models. Thats about 6 dead models a turn. Over 2 or 3 turns chances are that someone important may die.

 

So far i havent seen any scythes in action as they havent been released yet.

 

Last game a unit of scarabs grew by 9 in a turn for a total of 19 bases. That gave me pause for thought. As stormlord prevented my long range fire nailing it, the thought of another 9 bases next turn focused my planning.

 

You're only required to make one dangerous terrain roll per phase so the number of dead models should be much lower. But as I haven't read the necron codex extensively yet , I'm unsure if tremor staves have some rule that makes them an exception.

[Guest Bucelufe]

Well I had my first (and last) game versus Necrons last night.

I managed to kill 1 enemy Necron model in exchange for having my whole army wiped off the table.

My opponent actually finished the game with more points worth of troops than he actually started with.

I have to say I am somewhat disillusioned with the total ineffectiveness of everything I threw at his army, yet everything he had just butchered my dreadnoughts, tanks, troops and independent characters.

If this is the sign of things to come with the new codices I think I shall hang up my Bolter and Chainsword....

[AyanamiKun]

Do you have a list? I played against the new Necrons several times and the last game ended in a very close loss for me because of killpoints. He also used the tremor staves with the C'Tan :) He did only stop my vehicles from moving (which they did not want to do anyway) ;)

[Guest Bucelufe]

500 Point tournament game:

Ultramarine army:

 

Captain with power weapon and combi/melta

 

Tactical Squad

1 x Sgt

4 x marines

 

Scout Squad

1 x Sgt with Sniper

2 x Scout with Sniper

2 x Scout with Boltgun

 

Dreadnought with assault cannon and missile launcher

 

Predator with Heavy Bolter sponsons and autocannon

 

Necrons (to the best of my memory)

 

Destroyer Lord with 2+ armour saves, some magic trick to turn my own men against me on leadership test

 

Destroyer

 

5 x necron troops with tesla?

 

5 x necron troops with green guns

 

2 scarab big beetle things and 3 scarab swarms

 

I tried to target his scarab making beetles with my firepower and did eventually manage to kill 1, while I was doing this his Lord assaulted my dreadnought and killed it in 1 round with his scythe, I counter charged with my Captain and was unable to wound let alone force saving throws, and then was dispatched in turn after failing all my invulnerable saves. My scouts were shot to ribbons by tesla and necron weapon fire and my tank was dissolved by 9 scarab swarms. I managed a grand total of 4 wounding hits all game of which 3 got back up unscathed. He did more damage to himself with failed scarab creation rolls than I managed with my gun fire and close combats. Thoroughly disillusioned with the whole game after that farce ( I have been playing for 20 years) especially as I have to play Grey Knights next with their equally over powered garbage.

Needless to say I lost the game 5-0 on kill points, in all my other games against "conventional" armies I have been competitive and was lying 3rd in the league table. Last nights game pretty much consigns me to mediocrity which is where Codex Space Marine armies are supposed to be I guess.

[DarkGuard]

500 Point tournament game:

 

This was your main problem, 500pts. 40K games are typically designed for 1500+pts, most people play between the 1500-2500pts range. Of course, lower games can work, and 1000pts games can be very tactical and rewarding. But even there you can see the ruleset break down for some armies. And then when you get to 500pts, it really breaks down. The problem is the force org chart. Marines weren't hit too bad in the HQ department due to cheap HQ choices like the Libby, but that's still 1/5th of your army. And then you have to take two Troops choices, if you try to make them effective you spend a lot of points and don't have a lot of points for other things, if you make them cheap they're not very effective and become points sinks.

 

So the major problem was the points limit, and the TO not releasing the force org chart doesn't work at 500pts and amending it to make it fairer.

 

Your list, by the way, despite having good anti-Necron weaponry, doesn't have many bodies. That being said, neither does his, and I would have focused on the Immortals first, take them down, once the squad is wiped out they can't get back up.

 

However, although I'm not saying you or he were at fault throughout the game, the points limit is a major problem, and at 500pts it pretty much becomes which army degrades slower. Don't get annoyed at a couple of games, especially at this points level, because although generalship is very important, so is list building, and it's hard to build an effective Marine list at 500pts.

[Guest Bucelufe]

Well I am afraid to say that the points totals will not be changing any time soon.

I totally agree that Space Marines really suffer under 1000 pts but there is precious little I can do about that if I want to continue playing with my current gaming group.

Since most of them are friends of 20+ years I am unlikely to move away from that, fortunately I don't have to play Necrons again this tournament but I do have to face some Grey Knights.