MalachiOfRuss Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 So, seeing some more solid details of the new Necron codex I had a thought of how this affects our beloved Space Wolves. First, an entirely army of Init 2 models likely has most of us licking our fangs to get into Close Combat. However, I was thinking more about those new Necron vehicles with their "special shielding" that increases Front and Side Armor by +2 until it takes its first Pen Hit. I'm going to bet that these vehicles will start to see widespread use. I'm thinking that this, combined with the challenges already faced with mech Guard, and mech GK with armor 12+ it might be time to put Missile Spam to rest. Max Strength 8 on our long range weapons is not going to cut it anymore, I think. I'm thinking especially since the Necron vehicles with their higher AV until the first Pen, it will be all the more important to get that Penetrating hit earlier. I think it's time to look at your list and see if you can drop some points to squeeze in some more Lascannons into those Long Fangs. The extra point of Strength is going to be worth it, IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlbitz Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Funny you bring this up, I have been saying this for awhile now. I think that Missile spam is indeed on the way out. Or at least will become less effective. Lascannons are in my humble opinion going to be the way to go for your tank busting needs in a Long Fang pack. In fact I am currently building one with 5x Lascannons in it that I can't wait to field. Though please bear in mind that this comes from a guy who never used missile spam anyways, and my current Long Fang pack is 5x Heavy Bolters... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griz Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Though please bear in mind that this comes from a guy who never used missile spam anyways, and my current Long Fang pack is 5x Heavy Bolters I've had many discussions with fellow wolves players and other non wolves and everyone always disregards how useful 5 heavy bolters can be. I too usually field a pack of LFs with that load out. However, I've always tried to field at least 1-2 lascannon per pack (outside of the 5 HB pack). I think 15 extra points over a missile launcher is worth the extra point of STR. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Anyone care to crunch the numbers of number of penetrating hits on 10 lascannons (430 points) against AV 13 compared to 15 missile launchers (420 points) against AV 13? I'm wouldn't have thought the difference would be that telling? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyedens Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Say it with me, "I will not be a girlie wolf and use missile or any other kind of "spam" at all, spam is for all the lesser armies that can't compete with us. We don't need spam, we are wolves." lol I am currently running 2 LF packs with the current config. Long Fangs 1 WG w/cyclone, 2 ML, 2 Laz and a HB Long Fangs pack 2, WG, 2 Plasma Cannons, 3 Heavy Bolters Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 My #1 HS choice has always been 2X Lascannon, 3X Missile Launchers. My #2 choice has always been 2X Plasma Cannons, 3X Heavy Bolters. Then in larger games, my third choice is often a Whirlwind. I've never felt wanting for long range firepower. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Don't forget Draigo-wing and Paladins. Missiles don't have the AP to be enough of a threat, but get several lascannon shots in on the unit at the same time and you can really start to whittle them down. I'm glad I never bothered to build any Missile spam Long Fangs; I've been more than satisfied with my mixed-weapon Fangs, although I could use a few more Missle Launchers than I currently have, which is only 1. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Anyone care to crunch the numbers of number of penetrating hits on 10 lascannons (430 points) against AV 13 compared to 15 missile launchers (420 points) against AV 13? I'm wouldn't have thought the difference would be that telling? Prior to any cover saves 15 ML garner 1.67 penetrating hits 10 Lascannons garner 2.22 penetrating hits SO the difference is 0.56 penetrating hits per round of shooting. I think that the down turn in taking missiles may actually stem more from the fall of Razor Spam then The increase in AV 13. IF Razor Spam were still alive and kicking (if it ever really was) You would have 6-9 Lascannons to go with the 15 Missiles. In addition I think Living Metal (if it is widespread) and Fortitude are far more responsible for the missiles being less useful. Missiles tend to score a fair number of glances (15 missiles are acutally as effective as 10 lascannons if all you want to do is glance a vehicle.), with Shaken and Stunned all but ignored by these new rules glances become far less useful. A glance against vehicles with these rules is only really effective 33% of the time. Living Metal will amplify this as it is not a psychic power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalachiOfRuss Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 Anyone care to crunch the numbers of number of penetrating hits on 10 lascannons (430 points) against AV 13 compared to 15 missile launchers (420 points) against AV 13? I'm wouldn't have thought the difference would be that telling? Assuming BS4. 10 lascannons per turn 66% chance to hit, average 6.66 hits 33% chance to penetrate on hits, average 2.22 penetrating hits per turn 15 missile launchers per turn 66% change to hit, average 9.99 hits 16.66% change to penetrate on hits, average 1.66 penetrating hits per turn Conclusion: Swapping Missiles for Lascannons (equal points) will result in 75% more penetrating hits on AV 13. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I was running Missile Spam for a long time, even bringing all-missile Fangs to the ETC but a few of the lads in my group were strongly in favour of putting Lascannons into the units to punch through AV12 reliably and to dick over 2+ saves. They've come in handy and there have been times where I've chosen to put hits on a Rocket launcher in place of a Pack Leader in order to keep the unit pumping out shots at more appropriate targets. Before you freak out about Quantum Shielding remember that Scouts arriving behind vehicles ignore it with their Meltas. I'm also thinking about I2 being Jaws-bait. :P I'm not sure about whether its better to swap out 3 squads of missiles for 2 squads with Lascannons. You shoot at fewer targets and while you lose out against QS you can frag stuff to death or hammer the infantry as normal making it more flexible. It's probably why its so popular. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalachiOfRuss Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 Before you freak out about Quantum Shielding remember that Scouts arriving behind vehicles ignore it with their Meltas. I'm also thinking about I2 being Jaws-bait. :P I doubt many of the Necron vehicles will sit in the backfield, with the exception of maybe the Monolith and that thing with the giant cannon on it. Most of their stuff will be advancing, like the thing that carries 10 Warriors, or the one that can shoot "broadsides" with all its guns. They're going to be advancing as troop transports and close support units. Unless they hug a table edge, Scouts are going to come on too far away to do much good. I'm not sure about whether its better to swap out 3 squads of missiles for 2 squads with Lascannons. You shoot at fewer targets and while you lose out against QS you can frag stuff to death or hammer the infantry as normal making it more flexible. It's probably why its so popular. I agree that one shouldn't swap out all Missiles for Lascannons. Personally I'm looking at adding 2 LC's per LF squad, plus the squad's Razorback. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlbitz Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 also bear in mind most of this discussion has been about Lascannons vs. Missile Launchers vs. armor only. If we are talking about tournament meta then shouldn't we include the fact that Lascannons are ap2 vs. the Missile Launchers ap3? what with Grey knightsbeing so common? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Against GKs lascannons are only really a big deal (as far as AP 2) if you are seeing lots of paladin lists, otherwise the SP does not really matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 also bear in mind most of this discussion has been about Lascannons vs. Missile Launchers vs. armor only. If we are talking about tournament meta then shouldn't we include the fact that Lascannons are ap2 vs. the Missile Launchers ap3? what with Grey knightsbeing so common? But against other armies they are over kill, against hordes they don't provide what Frags can, and they are still much more expensive. Lose a squad of missile launchers and your long range fire power hasn't really been damaged in comparison to others, lose a squad of lascannon toting long fangs and it has taken a bashing. When you are considering an army list against one type its very easy to decide what is better, the missile launcher has always been the jack of all trades master of none but in a tournament setting that is often what is required a degree of flexibility. Armour 13 or grey knights there are still very few vehicles that can withstand 5 missile shots and not suffer something, especially when you have a couple of rune priests in the midfield. I see no change to the meta with regards to missile launchers yet, they are still one of the most cost effective high out put unit in any codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I see no change to the meta with regards to missile launchers yet, they are still one of the most cost effective high out put unit in any codex. Agreed, all the maths presented so far is for the opening volley... How many penetrating hits are scored when there have been casualties? How many penetrating hits are scored when one of the packs doesn't have LoS to anything with AV13? Quantity has a quality all of its own. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nrthstar Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Scary thought, one on target blast from the doomsday and we can kiss a whole squad of long fangs goodbye. I'll be playing my usual (i'm with ds) 2x lc 3x ml 2x plasma 3x hb And generally i don't razor them up since i've needed my razors as rhino's, but now i'm reconsidering so i can get two more las out. My dreads will definitely be on the bored with at least one las or a multimelta and a drop pod Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I've been looking forward to this for a while now! Those cheaper and spammed Long Fangs meant an army with lighter armour just can't compete, but now the firepower is decreased slightly if people put more expensive weapons in their Long Fang units whilst a Space Wolves player who gears up his to have more aggressive elements to take the fight to potential Necrons in an all comers list will have a more balanced list to deal with as a Space Marines player (the beating yardstick for all other armies). I always thought a lack of Lascannons in those Long Fangs made many armies a paper-rock-scissors affair anyway, since the massed Missile Launchers ruled against those many Marine, Tyranid, Dark Eldar etc lists, but those faster moving outflanking Blood Angels, Terminator armoured Grey Knights or any army with a large amount of heavy armour had a distinct advantage. Now, at the cost of a little of the over the top killing power against the former armies the Space Wolves are better against the heavy armour lists. Win win as far as 40k is concerned. :angry: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 still will be using my 5missile pack and my 5 plasmapack. Long Fangs in my playstyle don't go for vehicles. they go for mass carnage among the enemy's troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 So two specialized lists make Long Fang missiles go the way of the dinosaur? Yea, I don't think so. Besides, my Long Fangs missiles were never targeting high AV or low AP models anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 So two specialized lists make Long Fang missiles go the way of the dinosaur? Yea, I don't think so. Besides, my Long Fangs missiles were never targeting high AV or low AP models anyway. Thats another thought I had been thinking about today, is it a worry if necrons are AV 13? The majority of wolf lists have 10 meltas in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear da Lamentation Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I have to say I don't understand the "all missile launchers is BAD" thing. OK, so maybe 3 sets of LongFangs is a bit over the top in 1500point or less games - however you equip them. But why are missile launchers singled out? All of the weapons the LF can have, have advantages and disadvantages. Missile launchers (as someone said) are jack of all - master of none. This means they AREN'T over powered, or they wouldn't be "master of none". We all know they dont really cut it against AT13 and AT14 - or 2+ save guys. If you choose them, then you have to have other things in your army to do this role. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Relying on meltaguns to defeat AV13 vehicles that are either fast or hanging on the top of the table is a big risk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Relying on meltaguns to defeat AV13 vehicles that are either fast or hanging on the top of the table is a big risk. And relying on lascannons isn't? What fast av 13 vehicle are we worried about? If anything, a fast av 13 vehicle will be a transport vehicle thus moving towards said melta guns. With the change to Living Metal, I am not so worried about Monoliths anymore either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Relying on any one type of weapon is a recipe for disaster in most cases. An army with Lascannons is more effective than one with Missile Launchers on the whole at punching through heavy armour and heavy infantry and can be backed up by melta weapons for when opponents get too close etc. An army with Missile Launchers will have worse performance even if it uses similar numbers of melta weapon back up. What fast av 13 vehicle are we worried about? If anything, a fast av 13 vehicle will be a transport vehicle thus moving towards said melta guns. With the change to Living Metal, I am not so worried about Monoliths anymore either. Not sure if the Ghost Ark is fast anyway, but I hear rumours the Catacomb Command Barge was. Regardless, an open topped Skimmer needs to be taken out early to avoid a charge or massed rapid fire attack. Doing that with Missile Launchers is more difficult than Lascannons. Given the spam nature of many Space Wolves lists I wouldn't be over confident regarding being able to deal with the assault elements of Necrons, since they have some tough customers in there. Review of other competetive choices we can see things like Dreadknights also that can shunt on turn one and get a guaranteed turn 2 charge. They have armour 2+ and aren't scared of massed Missile Launcher Long Fangs a bit. 2 in an opposing list will hurt you, especially if there are Terminators there also. Stick to your massed Missile Launchers if you want, if it works for you then great. I've just seen far too many Space Wolves get smashed by their own paper-rock-scissors army building. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2914999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 If a necron transport is moving towards you then from what I have read its still good news, they are still low I as I understand it and combat is where a wolf player wants to be with them. I have spoken to a number of good players who have had their hands on the codex now and all of them believe that it won't be a meta changer, like Dark Eldar it will be a very good codex but not enough people will end up changing it to take anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241291-missile-spam-done/#findComment-2915058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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