Removed as a Casulaty

[Gentlemanloser]

Do any models killed in Assault by powers that 'remove you as a casualty' count towards combat resolution for figuring out which side won?

 

This cropped up last night where after being smacked down by Lysander, Castellan Crowe succesfully struck Lysander down with Heroic Sacrifice. As HS was successfully cast, both were 'removed as a casualy'.

 

As there was a Strike Squad and Sternguard Squad also involved in the CC, we needed to find out if both Crowe (who was IDed by Lysander) and Lysander counted towards the CC resolution.

 

The BRB only offered up;

 

Wounds caused, including wounds caused by ID.

 

'Remove as a Casualty' isn't ID, as otherwise Lysander would have been immune.

 

So did Lysanders remaining wounds count to the reoslution? And in addition did the 2W lost by Crowe being IDed actually count, as he'd also been 'removed as a casualty'?

 

:/

[JamesI]

My instinct is they do, but I can not prove it right now.

[Jacinda]

I can give you the clarification we got from GW about Saint Celestine being hit with a hex rifle. When it says removed "as a casuality" it means just like a casuality form whatever form of attack. So being hit by a hex rifle means you remove the model as if you suffered your last unsaved wound from a shooting attack. In the case of Saint Celestine we wanted to know if she left a marker or was removed from the game for good but it does look like "removed as a casuality" equates to suffering wounds.

[Something Wycked]

"Remove as a casualty" is almost a euphemism for "remove due to losing its last wound."

 

My instinct is that both will add 1 wound to each side's combat resolution. That might not be the case:

 

Crowe was ID'ed and would normally count as 2 wounds, but the text of Heroic Sacrifice may override that: "remove as a casualty," and Codex > BRB.

 

But of course I'm not totally sure while at work and without books- just throwing it out there for consideration ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Crowe was ID'ed and would normally count as 2 wounds, but the text of Heroic Sacrifice may override that: "remove as a casualty," and Codex > BRB.

 

Yeah, it was that, and the BRB only mentioning wounds lost by CC or the wounds that would have been lose from ID, counting towards resolution.

 

RAC isn't ID, and isn't mentioned in the BRB. :/

 

It's confusing, especially with other wounds caused (like Cleansing Flame) stating they do count, while the HS power is silent on the matter.

 

Unfortunately, the BRB lives at mates house, so I can't go pour through it either. ;)

[ShinyRhino]

I would err on the side of caution and say "removed as a casualty" means the same thing as "reduced to 0 wounds." There are plenty of examples that state that killed multiwound models contribute all of the wounds they possessed when killed to the combat resolution (Instant Death, etc), but NONE that state that wounds are ignored for the purposes of combat resolution.

The rule of thumb thus far in the game is if it was caused in close combat, it counts toward combat resolution.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

The only definition of removed as a casualty I can find is the following in reference to multiwound models (there is a sort of shimying around it earlier on in regard to one wound models)

 

"Once the model has lost all of its Wounds, it is removed as a casualty.."pg 26

 

So We know that a model that is removed as a casualty is a model that has lost all its wounds. Which would mean it would be one wound (as the in game effect is that it just lost one wound [its final one])

[Jacinda]

Hmm, if it lost ALL of its wounds ... then if it started combat with 2 wounds and was removed as a casuality, then it would lose all of its wounds (2) and so both would count for combat resolution.

[Gentlemanloser]

Would anyone mind quoting the section form the BRB about CC resolution?

 

I'm pretty sure it only counts wounds lost, including those from ID. But I'd like to be sure! :ph34r:

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Hmm, if it lost ALL of its wounds ... then if it started combat with 2 wounds and was removed as a casuality, then it would lose all of its wounds (2) and so both would count for combat resolution.

 

Sorry yeah you'd be right. I keep reading it as "the last wound" for some reason.

 

Combat checks the "Number of unsaved wounds inflicted by each side on their opponents"

[Something Wycked]

So the consensus is then leaning towards Heroic Sacrifice reducing the model's current wounds to 0, causing it to be removed as a casualty.

 

Lysander would, then, add his remaining wounds to the combat resolution score, and Crowe's wounds are already accounted for since he was killed immediately prior to using Heroic Sacrifice.

[Gentlemanloser]

Combat checks the "Number of unsaved wounds inflicted by each side on their opponents"

 

Remove as a Casulaty doesn't inflict unsaved wounds though.

 

Especially for HS, there's not even a save allowed to be 'unsaved'. ;)

[Something Wycked]

True, Gentleman, but "removed as a casualty" is equivalent to losing all its wounds.

"Once the model has lost all of its Wounds, it is removed as a casualty.."pg 26

[Jacinda]

So the consensus is then leaning towards Heroic Sacrifice reducing the model's current wounds to 0, causing it to be removed as a casualty.

 

Lysander would, then, add his remaining wounds to the combat resolution score, and Crowe's wounds are already accounted for since he was killed immediately prior to using Heroic Sacrifice.

There are plenty of ways to deny a save. Smack a tactical marine with a power sword. He gets no save so the wound is unsaved. Because someone can not roll only means it can not be saved abd therefore the wound is unsaved regardless if a save is even possible or not.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Combat checks the "Number of unsaved wounds inflicted by each side on their opponents"

 

Remove as a Casulaty doesn't inflict unsaved wounds though.

 

Especially for HS, there's not even a save allowed to be 'unsaved'. ;)

 

What Wicked said.

 

And war scythes dont allow saves but they still apply for combat res.