Necrons and Wolves

[Ryzouken]

I bet you start seeing crypteks in warrior/immortal squads. They can be upgraded to carry the 36 inch range str 8 ap 2 assault one weapon. That IMO is def decent AT.

Eldritch Lances. I bet you're right, as that's on the Cryptek of Destruction variant that also carries the Solar Pulse, meaning more turns of night fight. Lucky us, we've got Acute Senses.

 

I think I'd rather snake some missiles at the Scarabs instead of waiting for Murderous Hurricane to take care of the unit. 30 wounds is a lot to chew through. Compare to a round of shooting from the ubiquitous 3x Long Fangs with 4x Missiles we see in a lot of tournament SW lists... I'm thinking the missile barrage might be a better bet. Of course, if you've not got a better target for it and took MH in your take all comers list... But then, Living Lightning almost reads "remove d6 Scarab bases."

[Simo429]

I wouldn't murderous hurricane to kill scarabs merely to slow them down and give your long fangs more time to dispatch them.

[Ryzouken]

I see. I doubt you'll need the extra time to do so, a round's shooting should bring them to a manageable level (ie. easily dispatched by Rhino storm bolters) but I suppose it's nice to have in the toolbox if you get a crappy round of shooting by the Fangs.

[Captain Idaho]

Current netlisting for Necrons include:

Imotekh the Storm dude who wishes he was Njal

A unit of Scarabs, 10 bases strong, maybe a second unit as well

Warriors with or without Ghost Arks or Immortals with or without Night Scythes

'Lith

Doomsday Arks, usually 1-2

Possibly Spyders for psychic defense, though this is rare.

 

Assuming your bog standard Grey Hunters in Rhinos/Razorbacks with Missile Launcher 'Fangs and a Rune Priest or two...

Turn 1: shoot Long Fangs at Scarabs, not at the AV 13 vehicles. Every missile hit you achieve is a dead base of scarabs, and scarabs may be the 'Crons' best anti tank at the moment.

Turn 2: shoot Arks with Missiles and Melta. Start with the Missiles, work your way to the Melta. If you get lucky on an Ark and pen it, it'll dump its troops so you can melee them with your hunters.

Turn 3+: Jump from unit to unit whacking 'Crons. Shoot missiles at whatever's left.

Rune Priests: should sink Jaws where applicable, but early game you'll be well served by Storm Caller (to provide transports cover from Imotekh's lightning bolts.) Bonus points if you clip Imotekh the Wannabe-Njal with a Jaws line!

 

It's a neat 'dex, with a lot of cool stuff, but ultimately it's nothing a Wolf list can't whomp.

 

That's why I don't put much stock in Net-lists. My Necron list looks nothing like that :lol:

[MaveriK]

That's why I don't put much stock in Net-lists. My Necron list looks nothing like that :)

Fully agree with Capt. Net-list gives you ideas, but it shouldn't keep you from growing and thinking on your own. You might as well ask your opponent to roll your dice for you, if your too lazy to do it for yourself :P

[hendrik]

You might as well ask your opponent to roll your dice for you, if your too lazy to do it for yourself :D

wait a second! are we supposed to roll our own dices? i thought we only needed to deploy our forces and let our opponent handle the rest :P

[MaveriK]

You might as well ask your opponent to roll your dice for you, if your too lazy to do it for yourself :D

wait a second! are we supposed to roll our own dices? i thought we only needed to deploy our forces and let our opponent handle the rest :P

Bahahaha I guess the tavern brawl is an exception!

[hendrik]

You might as well ask your opponent to roll your dice for you, if your too lazy to do it for yourself :P

wait a second! are we supposed to roll our own dices? i thought we only needed to deploy our forces and let our opponent handle the rest :P

Bahahaha I guess the tavern brawl is an exception!

ROFL! :D that one didn't even cross my mind!

[Ryzouken]

That's why I don't put much stock in Net-lists. My Necron list looks nothing like that ;)

Fully agree with Capt. Net-list gives you ideas, but it shouldn't keep you from growing and thinking on your own. You might as well ask your opponent to roll your dice for you, if your too lazy to do it for yourself -_-

Netlists typically provide a template of the most cost efficient units/unit combinations and/or the most abusive special characters/rules. Given this basic assumption, when discussing hypothetical parameters of a given codex, using a netlist as a basis for what one can expect accomplishes a couple things:

1) it prevents Schrodingers' lists, where each list is dynamically altered to combat one another, resulting in stagnant discussion

2) it prepares one (theoretically) to deal with the absolute worst a codex has to offer.

 

Presumably, you won't be seeing netlist Necrons (or any army really) except in either very high levels of tournament play or in the hands of new players who don't know better, but by dissecting a netlist, you have a basis for what your army needs to accomplish when facing Necrons of any stripe. The concept is one of benchmarks, not exhaustive pre-planning that pre-empts any point in playing a given game.

[MaveriK]

That's why I don't put much stock in Net-lists. My Necron list looks nothing like that ;)

Fully agree with Capt. Net-list gives you ideas, but it shouldn't keep you from growing and thinking on your own. You might as well ask your opponent to roll your dice for you, if your too lazy to do it for yourself ;)

Netlists typically provide a template of the most cost efficient units/unit combinations and/or the most abusive special characters/rules. Given this basic assumption, when discussing hypothetical parameters of a given codex, using a netlist as a basis for what one can expect accomplishes a couple things:

1) it prevents Schrodingers' lists, where each list is dynamically altered to combat one another, resulting in stagnant discussion

2) it prepares one (theoretically) to deal with the absolute worst a codex has to offer.

 

Presumably, you won't be seeing netlist Necrons (or any army really) except in either very high levels of tournament play or in the hands of new players who don't know better, but by dissecting a netlist, you have a basis for what your army needs to accomplish when facing Necrons of any stripe. The concept is one of benchmarks, not exhaustive pre-planning that pre-empts any point in playing a given game.

thank you buzzkillington -_- :P

[Prot]

A lot of good points and interesting ideas and combos have been brought up here.

 

One thing I can see is those death ray vehicles do look amazing with a 'bank shot' kind of ability. And there's more stuff like that which will tend to hang back as the rest of the necron army seems to excel around the 24" mark.

 

So lately I've been really having fun with dual scout squads and I see them becoming a staple in my army with necrons as well.

[Nrthstar]

Including a pred with auto cannon and pintle mounted lc along with my long fangs and maybe finally including my bike squad i've never used will finally be helpful.

 

Course building my first xenos army felt very blasphemous at first, but as my immortals come to a close i'm starting to feel ok with it, as long as i keep a pack of long fangs freshly painted on hand to watch over this new evil xenos invasion that has come to my work bench.

[Captain Idaho]

That's why I don't put much stock in Net-lists. My Necron list looks nothing like that ;)

Fully agree with Capt. Net-list gives you ideas, but it shouldn't keep you from growing and thinking on your own. You might as well ask your opponent to roll your dice for you, if your too lazy to do it for yourself -_-

Netlists typically provide a template of the most cost efficient units/unit combinations and/or the most abusive special characters/rules. Given this basic assumption, when discussing hypothetical parameters of a given codex, using a netlist as a basis for what one can expect accomplishes a couple things:

1) it prevents Schrodingers' lists, where each list is dynamically altered to combat one another, resulting in stagnant discussion

2) it prepares one (theoretically) to deal with the absolute worst a codex has to offer.

 

Presumably, you won't be seeing netlist Necrons (or any army really) except in either very high levels of tournament play or in the hands of new players who don't know better, but by dissecting a netlist, you have a basis for what your army needs to accomplish when facing Necrons of any stripe. The concept is one of benchmarks, not exhaustive pre-planning that pre-empts any point in playing a given game.

 

Thing is, the problem with such a method of list building is it only takes into account a unit's average/most likely performance in a one on one hypothetical environment which doesn't take into account other units, terrain, movement or the more unquantifable elements of 40k such as force multiplication (usually because you can 1st turn move into an advantageous position or isolate elements of an opponent's list), sheer tenacity and even the potential of a unit forcing an opponent to be reactive rather than controlling the game.

 

All net list building does is assume the point of every game is to kill the opponent and nothing else. It's a fundamental aspect of the game of course, but I have won games with just a few models left because I controlled the objectives and was able to hold on to them in the face of the opponent's desire to just destroy as much of my army as possible.

[Ryzouken]

Thing is, the problem with such a method of list building is it only takes into account a unit's average/most likely performance in a one on one hypothetical environment which doesn't take into account other units, terrain, movement or the more unquantifable elements of 40k such as force multiplication (usually because you can 1st turn move into an advantageous position or isolate elements of an opponent's list), sheer tenacity and even the potential of a unit forcing an opponent to be reactive rather than controlling the game.

 

All net list building does is assume the point of every game is to kill the opponent and nothing else. It's a fundamental aspect of the game of course, but I have won games with just a few models left because I controlled the objectives and was able to hold on to them in the face of the opponent's desire to just destroy as much of my army as possible.

Which is why we play the game. Else we'd stop at netlisting and number crunching and be done, no point playing games if we know list A will beat list B 9/10 times. The fact that there are unquantifiable variables in a game of 40k is what makes it a game in the first place.

 

Netlisting provides a jumping off point, from which you know you'll need units X,Y, and possibly Z to present a credible threat to enemies fielding A, B, or C. It's something we all do, regardless of play preference. "I might play IG. They have Armor 14 tanks. I should include Str 8 or better guns in my list." "I might face tyranids, they'd got either really big critters, dealt with by my anti tank elements, or lots of little critters. I should include guys with bolters to put out a solid volume of fire." "Hey, those Eldar CC specialists can eat my CC specialists for breakfast, but my CC specialists make dealing with terminators a bit easier." The only question is, to what degree is the netlisting being done? You'll note my introductory post in this thread referenced units a necron army might have. There were no specifics regarding those units, and outside of mentioning that people like 10 bases worth of Scarabs, no actual number of units were given. It was literally a "here's the units that are getting the most buzz in the codex and are thus more likely to be seen."

 

How would you recommend we develop tactics by which to combat enemies? Wait for anecdotal requests? Pick apart the codex FOC slot by FOC slot, detailing what should be done to each choice in the dex, producing an exhaustive tactica? Quash all discussion by making it all general and subjective, with no actual analysis? ("I feel like I can beat Necrons with just my TWC Lord. I have nothing to back this up, but the model is just so cool it should win!")

[Captain Idaho]

I think such a topic rightfully deserves it's own thread as it's moving away from Necrons and Space Wolves. Suffice to say I think players should learn to play the game themselves rather than rely on a formula dictated to them by the internet. That's the way to learn 40k, rather tha people expecting to be winning all their games immediately.

 

Netlisting is essentially an effort to take a short cut to winning without trial and error and the human experience of learning.

 

And what exactly is wrong with exhaustive tactica evaluation for all units and other methods of play instead of Netlisting?

 

Steering the discussion back to the topic in hand, Space Wolves Netlists (the real sterotype ones) are going to be reliant on massed Missile Launchers to destroy vehicles at range and in turn attempt to get in close with their GH for the real killing. Necrons, with Solar pulses, the Storm Lord and a myriad of AV13 vehicles with very effective firepower, enough that a few turns of limiting SW fire at range will result in horrific casualities. Ergo the stereotype strongest lists need amendment to survive with an uphill struggle.

[skoll]

NOBODY MAY ENTER THE LAND THAT IS HELD BY SPACE WOLF HANDS.

 

 

Is all i gotta say, if we cant fight an uphill battle against codex creep then, we wont be the warriors Russ intended us to be.

[Nrthstar]

Being more specefic about the topic at hand, excessive missile spam may be out (however missiles the, mselves are not totally out, they still have a place, but so do the other long fang weapons) but transports are definitely back in. Between the doomsday gun and the death ray, my normal footslogg looks tricky, not impossible, but tricky. I easily see my two favorite dreads coming into play too, just have to play them smart to avoid 6's from gauss. I know from this thread that others will be using their elite slot for scouts, not my cup of tea, but in the case of their big guns, sometimes the best defense is a near suicide offense. May those scouts go in peace haha.

 

Thunderwolves and termies will be pretty fun. Drop pods of terminators will be great, and a swift thunderwolf calvary with a lord with saga of the warrior should be slick. Get in so fast they can't shoot, and blaze through the swarms of warriors racking up more extra attacks.

 

I get excited typing it out. Off to work.

[Captain Idaho]

NOBODY MAY ENTER THE LAND THAT IS HELD BY SPACE WOLF HANDS.

 

 

Is all i gotta say, if we cant fight an uphill battle against codex creep then, we wont be the warriors Russ intended us to be.

 

That's just it, I don't think SW are suffering from Codex Creep as such, as long as people adapt the SW army will still be awesome. Necrons looks quite balanced right now too.

[skoll]

I believe just a pinch of CC is in place, but this is only as more and more armies get brought in line with 5th edition and a tad above so they can still be viable with 6th when it rolls around (much like orcs are still viable with a 4th ed codex)

[Simo429]

I think this codex is a strong indication that combat resolution will change in sixth.

 

I do wonder if it will change the 5 man unit that people like taking, 8 or 9 with the wolf guard with a banner and MOTW will deal with necrons much more efficiently in combat.

[Godhead]

I am kind of puzzled about all the raving that is going on about scarabs. I play TWC, and I play seekers and hounds in my daemons list, and I LOVE the 12 inch charge on cav units, however. It takes at least 2 turns normally to get a charge off onto something you want to charge. Personally a 5 man GH pack with a flamer could be problematic for scarabs. Double wounds from template weapons and the fact that you would on a 3 plus the flamer is ap5 so no armor save nor cover saves would do a decent job on removing bases. Other armies have far more burning ability than even the wolves. GK's have incinerators (which are amazing for getting rid of them), IG have Hvy flamers mounted on their chimeras and quite a few run a command squad with 4 flamers. That's still not mentioning the plethora of template attacks that IG has access to. Orks can put up quite a few burnas as well. So while night fighting will help the scarabs get across the board, it's not that reliable, and what happens when someone just starts spot lighting the scarabs with search lights? Maybe I am missing something, but knowing that if something gets close to me is going to wreck my mech, I'm probably going to try to kill it before it gets a chance to do that. Sometimes you feed it a little bit of bait and then finish it off.

[HERO]

Hi Wolves, I wrote a codex review for the Necrons here:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2011/11/new-nec...dex-review.html

 

You might some find more Necron stuff in there. It's a pretty thorough review.

[Ryzouken]

I am kind of puzzled about all the raving that is going on about scarabs. I play TWC, and I play seekers and hounds in my daemons list, and I LOVE the 12 inch charge on cav units, however. It takes at least 2 turns normally to get a charge off onto something you want to charge. Personally a 5 man GH pack with a flamer could be problematic for scarabs. Double wounds from template weapons and the fact that you would on a 3 plus the flamer is ap5 so no armor save nor cover saves would do a decent job on removing bases. Other armies have far more burning ability than even the wolves. GK's have incinerators (which are amazing for getting rid of them), IG have Hvy flamers mounted on their chimeras and quite a few run a command squad with 4 flamers. That's still not mentioning the plethora of template attacks that IG has access to. Orks can put up quite a few burnas as well. So while night fighting will help the scarabs get across the board, it's not that reliable, and what happens when someone just starts spot lighting the scarabs with search lights? Maybe I am missing something, but knowing that if something gets close to me is going to wreck my mech, I'm probably going to try to kill it before it gets a chance to do that. Sometimes you feed it a little bit of bait and then finish it off.

Thing is, it's a 150 point unit with a 24" max threat range. Your flamers would work great, but chances are good that the scarabs will tag their vehicle target before you get a chance to hit them, since your flamer unit's range is 13 inches max, 27 if you put them in a rhino (which is what the scarabs are looking for: a vehicle to sink their tiny terrible teeth into) It'll be difficult to get a good flamer template on the scarabs, chances are you'll only get about 3 hits or so. That entire unit's shooting it only likely to do about two bases worth of kills, maybe a third if the Rhino's storm bolter hits too.

 

*shrug* I'm looking at going AV 13 spam with no scarabs myself... my long range anti tank is going to be Triarch Stalkers and deep striking Doom Scythes. Along with Imotekh's random thunderbolts... :cuss

 

Assuming I bother to build a Necron force. I'm quite content with my Wolves and IG...

[Captain Idaho]

Oh, can Doom Scythes deep strike? I sure hope so (Codex is at home) as that makes them very useful for getting off a good shot before being targetted.

[Prot]

Oh, can Doom Scythes deep strike? I sure hope so (Codex is at home) as that makes them very useful for getting off a good shot before being targetted.

 

Not that I'm aware of. Plus their range is 12". This makes dropping kind of risky.

 

I do think Scarabs are extremely useful. In some armies there will be many. Combined with night fight, they might be harder to pick off. They can't Turbo anymore, but it's important to note that they are beasts (for assault, you don't want to caught off guard) and they are SWARMS. So templates will give them some serious issues.