I found Him!

[G3rman]

Well, as for the Watchers, I'm sure that at some point the DA tried to get rid of them but soon realized they were invulnerable to any human weaponry. It would be a waste of their time to figure out a way to kill a xenos that wasn't even bothering them, especially when they had bigger problems to take care of.

[Brother_Darius]

Well didn't they hint in the HH books that the Watchers were actually guarding over the Demon that was a part of the Caliban's core? Who's to say that the demon was ever removed? Perhaps they continue to watch it still?

[Zincite]

Wait...why would we not go into our own Fortress??

 

it seems really weird we have a floating home...and we choose to live outside it??

Tut, tut... Younglings today...

 

The Fortress above is hallowed and sacred ground. No Dark Angel would dare to tread upon it, until the Lion walks amongst them again. The First Legion resides underneath, in the vast network of hollowed out caves and tunnels. Check page ten of your Codex, then seek out penance for not knowing the legends.

 

And any half-brained author who starts to contradict that (I'm looking at you, Matthew) will get my steel-painted Power Armoured boot up his rear.

 

The Lion definately sleeps in the rock, that is no rumour it just has not been confirmed after the 2nd edition codex Angels of Death (Which we shared with the blood angels) so thats why many newer players (Read, those not having grey hairs in their beards) have not heard about it.

Now that's odd. I was sure that was in the current codex.... Maybe I'm getting old. *Checks beard for grey hairs*

[Brother Immolator]

Wait...why would we not go into our own Fortress??

 

it seems really weird we have a floating home...and we choose to live outside it??

Tut, tut... Younglings today...

 

The Fortress above is hallowed and sacred ground. No Dark Angel would dare to tread upon it, until the Lion walks amongst them again. The First Legion resides underneath, in the vast network of hollowed out caves and tunnels. Check page ten of your Codex, then seek out penance for not knowing the legends.

 

And any half-brained author who starts to contradict that (I'm looking at you, Matthew) will get my steel-painted Power Armoured boot up his rear.

 

The Lion definately sleeps in the rock, that is no rumour it just has not been confirmed after the 2nd edition codex Angels of Death (Which we shared with the blood angels) so thats why many newer players (Read, those not having grey hairs in their beards) have not heard about it.

Now that's odd. I was sure that was in the current codex.... Maybe I'm getting old. *Checks beard for grey hairs*

 

It is as you say in all respects.You dont have that many grey hairs in that beard ;)

And its definitely in the new codex too.The Lion has a sleep of epic proportions.I envy him!

 

There is no final definition of the watchers though.Some say that they are aliens,others say that they are psychic manifestations of the DA collective guilt,there is a theory that they are extensions of the emperors will and even vat grown servitor like creatures.Who the hell knows?

What buggers me about is this:If they are so powerful as it appears(after all even if a titan blasts the things they just refuse to die)why on earth does one act as az's b ;) and carry his helmet around?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Wait...why would we not go into our own Fortress??

 

it seems really weird we have a floating home...and we choose to live outside it??

Tut, tut... Younglings today...

 

The Fortress above is hallowed and sacred ground. No Dark Angel would dare to tread upon it, until the Lion walks amongst them again. The First Legion resides underneath, in the vast network of hollowed out caves and tunnels. Check page ten of your Codex, then seek out penance for not knowing the legends.

 

And any half-brained author who starts to contradict that (I'm looking at you, Matthew) will get my steel-painted Power Armoured boot up his rear.

 

Ahh, I see.

 

Consider myself reporting to the Reclusiam for a night or two of repentance and beseeching the forgiveness of the Lion and the most Glorious Emperor

[Captain Semper]

Regarding the Lion's resting place, Krewl is right. Current Codex (4th Ed.) does not mention it. Also 3rd Ed. Codex does not mention it. As far as Codices go only the 2nd Ed. Codex: Angels of Death mentions it. And it is quite clear - leaves no room for interpertation.

[Droma]

I'm not sure about 3rd ed codex because I haven't read it but I know the 4th ed codex hints the lion is within the rock. It's in the Azreal section talking about Luther and how the lion will return soon and he's already near.

[Brother Immolator]

I'm not sure about 3rd ed codex because I haven't read it but I know the 4th ed codex hints the lion is within the rock. It's in the Azreal section talking about Luther and how the lion will return soon and he's already near.

 

In fact Semper is correct.The new dex doesnt explicitly say that he is within the rock,but that when the DA found Luther he said that the Lion was carried away(presumably by the watchers,presumably in the secret chambers of the rock).

And indeed he now days screams that the days were the Lion will come back are near.

 

So i guess that carried him away bit combined with memories from the old dex made us believe it was in the current.

 

Moreover i dont believe that this was retconed though(I.E. the Lion is still in the rock)but the description changed as to give an air of mystery as to where the Lion is.

I believe he still snores heavily in the bowels of our home.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

If there's one thing i learned reading any new codex written by Ward, is that he cares nothing for previous fluff and has taken upon himself to rewrite it for his own pleasure.

Now i'm sure he won't reveal who the SM is in power armour, any less than GW admitting what happened to the Lost 2 Legions.

It just irks me to know that he gets freehand to rewrite what ever he likes.

If it is found to be the Lion, i would sorely be angered that he would do that, and GW for letting him. Just like right now i'm non to happy that the Necron your talking about also apparently has the skull of Sebastion Thor now.

Though he clearly was buried on Terra at the age of 112 and they built a wing onto the palace the size of a small country that gets visited by over 2 million a year and would be gaurded around the clock.

Thank you Matt "we hate you" Ward.\

 

For me i think it could just be a Captian, doesnt have to be a Primarch, we could be looking at Pre-Heresy armour is all.

[Bryan Blaire]

There is no final definition of the watchers though.Some say that they are aliens,others say that they are psychic manifestations of the DA collective guilt,there is a theory that they are extensions of the emperors will and even vat grown servitor like creatures.Who the hell knows?

What buggers me about is this:If they are so powerful as it appears(after all even if a titan blasts the things they just refuse to die)why on earth does one act as az's b :P and carry his helmet around?

 

No, there is quite a bit of definition. Zahariel has a direct conversation with several of the Watchers in the Dark starting on page 140 of Descent of Angels while he was still a member of the Order (i.e. before the Dark Angels Legion had broken to give rise to "collective guilt). On page 142, one of the Watchers tells Zahariel "we are of a species unknown to the majority of your race." So that rules out vat grown servitors, as servitors are always a species known (all human or ab-human, so far as I've ever seen) and by virtue of their speaking at all, much less telepathically (page 141, "The voice echoed within his skull"). They describe themselves as "members of, a brotherhood, much like yourself... a cabal dedicated to thwarting the most ancient evil." They also tell Zahariel "You cannot harm us with weapons of this realm..." which implies immunity to things from the physical world, but possibly that they can be harmed by things like the Warp or something from yet another realm.

 

So we know that they are definitely a people of some kind (they are a species) and not human, so therefore Xenos. Apparently they are either not of the "normal" realm or powerful enough to be protected from anything in the "normal" realm. They are dedicated to fighting "the most ancient evil" which in this case is most likely Chaos (as they go on and on about Zahariel already carrying the taint within him, hinting at his Warp contact) and they imply that at least someone human knows who and what they are. So we can cross off manifestations of the Dark Angels' guilt or servitors, and I think it is unlikely that the Emperor, as powerful as he is, had the ability to completely fashion a new species at some point (he goes far, but in the end, the Space Marines are modifications of humanity, not a whole new species), so they probably aren't extensions of the Emperor's will. They probably are aware of the Emperor and his machinations, and the Emperor is likely aware of them.

 

IIRC, the "Cabal" was also mentioned in the Legion HH book. My guess is that this is probably one and the same as the description the Watcher gives. Given that the Legion novel has an Eldar working in the Cabal makes me wonder whether the Watchers in the Dark are in some way associated with the "Old Ones" whom the Eldar once allied with/served.

 

Now, why is a Watcher acting as a footman to the Supreme Grand Master, that does require a little more speculation. Maybe they are still trying to guide the Dark Angels toward the fight against Chaos. It's possible that they act as the final Circle in the Dark Angels, one that only the SGM resides in, but still encompasses more individuals than is commonly known. Perhaps they can tap into more information than we think and this gets fed to the SGM, and they are simply helping along the way toward the SGMs guiding the Dark Angels to this mysterious agenda they have without being blatant about it. It's also possible that they are watching the entire Dark Angels chapter still (or possibly even the Unforgiven as a whole) for signs that they are still tainted by Caliban.

[Captain Semper]

Now, why is a Watcher acting as a footman to the Supreme Grand Master, that does require a little more speculation. Maybe they are still trying to guide the Dark Angels toward the fight against Chaos. It's possible that they act as the final Circle in the Dark Angels, one that only the SGM resides in, but still encompasses more individuals than is commonly known. Perhaps they can tap into more information than we think and this gets fed to the SGM, and they are simply helping along the way toward the SGMs guiding the Dark Angels to this mysterious agenda they have without being blatant about it. It's also possible that they are watching the entire Dark Angels chapter still (or possibly even the Unforgiven as a whole) for signs that they are still tainted by Caliban.

 

This is actually pretty cool! The Inner-Inner Circle, instead of being a Circle of one (i.e. the SGM) it is a circle of many (incl. the Watchers)! I really want to see the Watchers' background further developed in our next Codex and their actual purpose and role in the Hunt for the Fallen! That said, I'm don't particularly want them on the table top - especially as subordinates to the DAs ;)

[Brother Immolator]

There is no final definition of the watchers though.Some say that they are aliens,others say that they are psychic manifestations of the DA collective guilt,there is a theory that they are extensions of the emperors will and even vat grown servitor like creatures.Who the hell knows?

What buggers me about is this:If they are so powerful as it appears(after all even if a titan blasts the things they just refuse to die)why on earth does one act as az's b :) and carry his helmet around?

 

No, there is quite a bit of definition. Zahariel has a direct conversation with several of the Watchers in the Dark starting on page 140 of Descent of Angels

 

Well i dont have the book,what i wrote above is in a grey box in our codex.So...we have two sources.Or more accurately one source(the HH novel)and one perspective(the codex).

 

This is actually pretty cool! The Inner-Inner Circle, instead of being a Circle of one (i.e. the SGM) it is a circle of many (incl. the Watchers)! I really want to see the Watchers' background further developed in our next Codex and their actual purpose and role in the Hunt for the Fallen! That said, I'm don't particularly want them on the table top - especially as subordinates to the DAs :)

 

 

Yep,me too.But i think one little robed guy is enough as it is.We dont need midgets running along our lines.Though it would be cool if the masters(and only them),had a familiar like ruling to give them one midget to carry a special wargear item.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

We dont need midgets running along our lines.

What's wrong with a unit of nigh-immortal psychic midgets? It'd be cute.. and powerful, hopefully. :)

[Leonaides]

Just a simple point - the final inner circle cannot be a cirlce of 1. Or how would a new SGM learn all the things the previous one knew? Such a secretive bunch like the DA are hardly likely to leave mere written archives for the next person to find when they're dead - While the SGM has the Sword that unlocks Luthors cell, who leads him to it - the High Chaplain maybe? And presumably the Chief Librarian has to check htat the SGM hasnt become tainted by Luthors heretical rantings?

[Captain Semper]

Just a simple point - the final inner circle cannot be a cirlce of 1. Or how would a new SGM learn all the things the previous one knew? Such a secretive bunch like the DA are hardly likely to leave mere written archives for the next person to find when they're dead - While the SGM has the Sword that unlocks Luthors cell, who leads him to it - the High Chaplain maybe? And presumably the Chief Librarian has to check htat the SGM hasnt become tainted by Luthors heretical rantings?

 

Well, it is a Circle of One in the sense that there is knowledge that only the SGM is privy to. It says so explicitly in the Codex (last paragraph of the first column on p.46). So this is not debatable. The SGM is the "Inner-Inner Circle" which only comprises of himself. The debate is (as you correctly put it) how does the transfer of knowledge takes place? How the new SGM learns the secret? To that there is no clear answer but I think this is where the Watchers come into play. No other DA knows. So the the Watchers are the only possible alternative. They are responsible to "educate" the new SPG in my view.

[Bryan Blaire]

Just a simple point - the final inner circle cannot be a cirlce of 1. Or how would a new SGM learn all the things the previous one knew? Such a secretive bunch like the DA are hardly likely to leave mere written archives for the next person to find when they're dead - While the SGM has the Sword that unlocks Luthors cell, who leads him to it - the High Chaplain maybe? And presumably the Chief Librarian has to check htat the SGM hasnt become tainted by Luthors heretical rantings?

While I'd like to agree that the "final circle" is larger than one Marine: page 46, C:DA 4Ed: "As Supreme Grand Master, Azrael alone is privy to the greatest secret of all. At the very heart of the Rock is a cell...inside a stasis field, languishes the broken Man who was once Luther." Now, this may just be a single perspective, written by someone that doesn't know the whole truth (as how would someone other than the SGM know about Luther if only the SGM knows about Luther), it's likely that Jervis Johnson and Andy Hoare wrote that for a reason. However, it isn't that large a stretch to think that the Watchers in the Dark do the things that you described: they tell the SGM the secrets, they lead him to the cell, they check for tainting, probably from various sources.

 

What I'd like to find out is the Watchers' thoughts on the Dark Angels having a Librarium. ;)

 

Edit: LOL, ninja'd by Captain Semper!

[Leonaides]

Is it not possible that (for example) the high chaplain might know the locaiton of the cell, and that the SGM's sword needs to be inserted to open it, but not what/who is in the cell? only the SGM ever talks to Luthor, so he'd still be the only one with that knowledge...

[Captain Semper]

@ Bryan Blair: This is creepy! Same exact thoughts!!!

 

@ Leonaides: This is very possible. They could know there is a door but not what is hidden behind it. Since the SGM walks to that door, I guess others could walk to that door too. Opening it is another question.

 

Also the appropriate title is not High Chaplain (that's a BA title) it is rather Grand Master of Chaplains, Finder of Secrets. Impressive huh? :lol:

[Azoriel]

@ Leonaides: This is very possible. They could know there is a door but not what is hidden behind it. Since the SGM walks to that door, I guess others could walk to that door too. Opening it is another question.

 

In Angels of Darkness,

Sapphon not only knows about Luther, but also sees fit to inform Astellan

. As such, the "we've-got-Luther" circle is most certainly at least three (and is most probably much larger than that).

[Cactus]

@ Leonaides: This is very possible. They could know there is a door but not what is hidden behind it. Since the SGM walks to that door, I guess others could walk to that door too. Opening it is another question.

I expect they ask the Chief Librarian, Keeper of the Keys.

[LidlessPraetor]

P. 21 Codex Dark Angels 2ed.:

 

"I stand before you, the Holder of the Keys. A great many of the mysteries of our Order are known to me. Our secrets are laid bare before my eyes. It is I and I alone who can grant passage to our most inner circle..."

 

Of Course Ezekiel knows. You can't hide much from a psyker, let alone, one of the most powerful of any chapter. One that can make a Necron Lord, Inquisitor, or even a Hive Tyrant, feel guilt and turn away from a battlefield... =) Always my favorite Dark Angel Character

[Captain Semper]

@ Leonaides: This is very possible. They could know there is a door but not what is hidden behind it. Since the SGM walks to that door, I guess others could walk to that door too. Opening it is another question.

I expect they ask the Chief Librarian, Keeper of the Keys.

 

This is a key the Chief certainly doesn't have! ;)

 

EDIT:

 

@ LidlessPraetor: Sorry but the passage you quote from the Codex AoD does not claim knowledge of Luthor. There are quite a few other secrets that need to be kept :P . It's one thing to hold the ability to grand passage to the Inner Circle (i.e. choose who's to be admitted and who's not quite Inner Circle stuff) and another to have access to the secret that only the SGM has. Besides he says "a great many" which means "not all". Now how is this secret shielded from a psyker? Well Watchers come to mind... again! Even more potent psychic beings than any human/SM Librarian could ever hope to be. So they out-psy Ezekiel. That's just my theory though... The only hard fact is that according to current Codex ONLY the SGM knows. So we have to explain everything with this "fact" in mind. But it's not such a stretch. Even in the C:AoD it is explicit that only the Sword of Secrets grands access to Luther. Which is a badge of office of the SGM. Now one could argue that although only the SGM has access to Luther his existance is known by other members of the Inner Circle (which would tie with Azoriel's comment). But since we have explicit evidence to the contrary, why go into the trouble?

 

@ Azoriel: Good find! I'll have to look at it again - my memory is failing me :)! But if there is conflicting info (which happens quite often) I tend to go with the latest one.

[Son of Rawl]

Maybe the Watchers guide him too the cell...anyone think of that

[Tengo]

I think that the Watchers in the dark were responsible for the survival of the infant lion during his first years in the deadly wilderness of Caliban. Perhaps, with their physic abilities they could sense an unbelievable magnitude of power in the very young primarch, and speculating perhaps that he seemed to be the only pure and innocent thing they may have ever encountered (The innocence of children negates the evils of man, or perhaps because he was just the only being they've ever encountered completely free of the Caliban taint) they could have vowed to watch over and care for him, until he grew strong and capable, able to cleanse Caliban of it's dangers, and in return for their protection in his early years, offer the watchers security on their own homeworld.

Driven by their loyalty to the lion, they do not bother his legion, but they are loyal only to the lion, not the emperor, and serve only Primarch, and not the Dark Angels.

 

That's my take on the little fellas anyway.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think that the Watchers in the dark were responsible for the survival of the infant lion during his first years in the deadly wilderness of Caliban. Perhaps, with their physic abilities they could sense an unbelievable magnitude of power in the very young primarch, and speculating perhaps that he seemed to be the only pure and innocent thing they may have ever encountered (The innocence of children negates the evils of man, or perhaps because he was just the only being they've ever encountered completely free of the Caliban taint) they could have vowed to watch over and care for him, until he grew strong and capable, able to cleanse Caliban of it's dangers, and in return for their protection in his early years, offer the watchers security on their own homeworld.

Driven by their loyalty to the lion, they do not bother his legion, but they are loyal only to the lion, not the emperor, and serve only Primarch, and not the Dark Angels.

 

That's my take on the little fellas anyway.

I somewhat agree with you on your concept for the Watchers being somewhat responsible for his survival, but I think he still did a lot on his own. He was a Primarch after all.

 

As far as the Watchers and their interaction with the Unforgiven/Dark Angels, they definitely interact with them. Per the 4Ed DA Codex, page 11 "Only the most trusted of Brethren are considered for membership of the Inner Circle. These are observed from afar, sometimes finding themselves inexplicably shadowed for many years by the diminutive and mysterious Watchers in the Dark."

 

Honestly, I think that there is a lot more going on in the background with the Watchers and the Inner Circle than has yet been written about in any of our books, Codexes or otherwise. I hope that this gets advanced, and we get some info on why these particular (supposedly) Xenos are respected enough by the Dark Angels to apparently be relied upon to watch over and possibly even help screen potential members of the highest echelons of our Chapter when it has been indicated that the Dark Angels won't even take the field alongside ab-humans such as Ratlings.