Tengo Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I somewhat agree with you on your concept for the Watchers being somewhat responsible for his survival, but I think he still did a lot on his own. He was a Primarch after all. Yeah, I mean it's like a Tarzan (or 'the Jungle book' if you'd rather) situation, I reckon the watchers protected him directly while he was still a very young and utterly defenseless child, for the very first few years of his life, all the time being taught to survive the deadly wilderness, so by the time he was no longer an infant, he was able to use his own cunning, guile and instinct to adapt to the dangers surrounding him, which is probably why he is one of the greatest tactical minds the imperium has ever seen :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2927384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 I also wonder just how much they may have taught him directly. Some of his cunning and guile, as well as sticking to the shadows, may be indicative of early years of running scared, but it could also be due to some instruction at the Watchers' hands. Makes me wonder just how much the little Lion may have actually known about the nature of Caliban. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2927401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Stacius Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I think that the Watchers are guiding the DA to a glorius future, where we are lauded as saviours of the whole universe. :) As concerning the Lion, yes he should be sleeping in the center of the Rock. But, the great chaos god wardo, may have teleported him anywhere! Probably Mars. The giant man could be a thunder warrior, as they are supposed to be huge! If I had to gambel though, I would go for Corax myself. Ferrus is dead for sure, Vulkan got hit by a missle. Lol could always be Russ, who got lost on his way to the Eye Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 ~shrug~ I have all the DA codices...and what's presented as fact in source one is often contradicted in another. It's been a long time since DA fluff has been adamant that the lion is resting deep within the rock. And it's not like any of the unforgiven, living or dead, actually saw him there... so his presence there cannot be more than a guess. While only the SGM's sword grants entry to Luthor's cell, it's pretty obvious that others know he's in there (though maybe not necessarily where the cell is located). As for a watcher carrying the lion helm, perhaps the relic isn't DA property...perhaps it's on indefinite loan from the watchers, and they're, ahem, watching it. Or maybe the miraculous effects ascribed to the helm are actually provided by the watchers' psychic powers... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 As for a watcher carrying the lion helm, perhaps the relic isn't DA property...perhaps it's on indefinite loan from the watchers, and they're, ahem, watching it. Or maybe the miraculous effects ascribed to the helm are actually provided by the watchers' psychic powers... Aint it supposed to be the Lions helmet? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 ~shrug~ I have all the DA codices...and what's presented as fact in source one is often contradicted in another. It's been a long time since DA fluff has been adamant that the lion is resting deep within the rock. And it's not like any of the unforgiven, living or dead, actually saw him there... so his presence there cannot be more than a guess. Here's the thing. GW is not playing fair. In the old days (C:AoD) it was a more clear distinction between in-Universe and out-of-Universe knowledge. The resting place of the Lion was a clear out-of Universe piece of information since he is kept in a chamber with no entrance... In this respect it is an absolute given - and is presented as such - the text doesn't leave room for interpertation. It is not a matter of an in-Universe character perspective. We, the "out-of-Universe" readers get this information regardless of the theories that might be brought forward by the in-Universe characters. However in recent fluff the in/out-of-Universe boundaries have been blurred. So when an inconsistency exists between two Codices regarding the same story or event, then the answer usually is: well this is the X faction perspective not the Y. But wait a minute! Wasn't the "Lion & the Wolf" an "objective" out-of-Universe story? Now we get the SW version and the DA version. What did really happen? No answer... It's a matter of perspective now. Thankfully this has not happened with the Lion's resting place... yet. So although old fluff, it still stands in my view as it has not been contradicted so far. While only the SGM's sword grants entry to Luthor's cell, it's pretty obvious that others know he's in there (though maybe not necessarily where the cell is located). In the current Codex it is clear that only the SGM knows of the existance of Luther. Not that he is the only one that has access, the only one that knows. This also leaves little room for interpertation and it is presented as a fact; not an in-Universe perception. Of course it creates questions, (like the transfer of knowledge) but one has to fill in the blanks as best as he can without trying to move the "immovable" objects if you get my meaning. ^_^ Oh and the Lion Helm was indeed worn by the Lion - but who made it? Who gave it its protecting powers? Could be the Watchers for all we know - after all they carry it :). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 If you want to believe that Zeke doesn't know, have at it! ;) I'm sure he'd prefer things that way anyway... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 That is indeed a problem!!! One has to invent a reason as to why Zeke doesn't know... Watchers come to mind. As I mentioned in an earlier post they must out-psi Ezeliel. But you are right. The "only the SGM knows" is kind of problematic. But it there so we have to live with it... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 My money's on plot hole caused by lack of codex editing. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost_angel Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 The issue's fudged a bit due to the entry in C:DA but I don't think Azrael is the only member of the inner circle who is aware of Luthor's captivity: In Angels of Darkness, Sapphon reveals Luthor's existence to Astelan during the conclusion of the interrogation. While the novel is older material I'm inclined to think that those uppermost in the inner circle are well aware of his imprisonment. Just my two cents R Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tengo Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 If only the writers of the fluff payed as much attention as those reading it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 lost_angel, It's just not that individual that knows. Besides him and Azrael, there are at least two other Dark Angels... ’He did not,’ Sapphon told [Astelan]. ’He is ours, held in the deepest cell of this rock. As his cries for forgiveness echo in your ears, you will learn to beg for mercy as well.’ ’I do not understand,’ Astelan pleaded. ’You are fond of the sayings of the Imperium,’ Sapphon replied with a gesture to the Space Marines holding his prisoner. Both of those individuals are also described as dark-robed and wearing skull-masks as well. What we should be asking is who doesn't know this ultimate secret that supposedly only Azrael possesses?!? ^_^ Cheers, P. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Of course more than just Azrael knows of Luthor. The Luther fluff specifically states that he talks to the DA. Who's going to listen to him though? Interrogator Chaplains, whose sole purpose for existing as a sub-class of Chaplain is to hunt the Fallen? How about the high ranking librarians that are always present to affirm the veracity of the Fallens' comments when they are being interrogated? So, not even one of them will be present when Luther is being chatted up- they just take him at his word? All of the Grand Masters know about Luther, excepting perhaps Belial, as it is not relevant to his position that he know(he still might know though). Some higher ranking Interrogator-Chaplains and Epistolary Librarians might also know, seeing as they could be called upon to deal with Luther when Sapphon/Ezekiel are off doing something else. Then there is the Master of the Forge who has to maintain the vaults within The Rock, which does include the area Luther is in. However, due to the mistrust of the Mechanicus connection, the Master of the Forge will probably only know that there is somebody of great importance to the Chapter being kept deep within The Rock, but not necessarily know who it is. As to The Lion being in The Rock, it isn't a guess; it is a fact. Only the Emperor knows of it though. That is very clearly stated in Codex: Angels of Death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Well current Codex says that not only that the SGM is the only one with knowledge and access but also the only one that interrogates Luther. And before him the other SGMs... So no matter what earlier fluff said this is explicitly the case in the current incarnation of DAs. And frankly I don't think it is conflicting with previous Codices. Will it change in a future Codex? maybe - and if that happens we should go by that and see what else is added or subtracted from the fluff. But as the case is now, Azrael (and other SGMs before him) are the only ones that know, have access to and occationally interrogate Luther. It's there in black and white. So we can fill in he blanks anyway we like but going against explicit lore is not the way to do it in my view. And although I value BL books as equally valid source of background material (especially the more recent publications where BL seems more consious about it) one has to consider the age of said book. Things have happened since and the fluff is advancing, clarified or changed. A one-liner in a BL book that was not even the core of its plot can hardly be at par with the most recent description of Azrael in the current Codex. Now if a BL book that came out post the Codex raised the same issue it would bear more significance and one would have to choose which fluff is more valid. But this is not the case. SGMs are not called Keeper's of the Truth for nothing... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I guess we can say that The Watchers help Azrael with Luther then, and perhaps that they cloud the minds of those who then unknowingly help maintain the area of The Rock where Luther is kept. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I guess we can say that The Watchers help Azrael with Luther then, and perhaps that they cloud the minds of those who then unknowingly help maintain the area of The Rock where Luther is kept. Yes, well truth is the Watchers definetelty need more examination by GW. I'm hopeful that the new Codex (whenever it will be out) will shed more light. But yes, we are fortunate enough to have them as a plot catalyst when things do not add up. Other Chapters are not so lucky :)! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2928896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Saphon might know,now that i come to think about it there is no mention of him in the codex and he is the master of the reclusiam right? Perhaps they avoided him with thoughts of the next codex introducing him and hence the knowledge?Heres to hoping! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2929310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 The handling of special characters in the current 4E codex is just plain bad anyways. The background is little better, as it tosses out every scrap of information written acknowledging that more than just Azrael knows about Luther. Either the Watchers act as Azrael's psychic truthsayers, or Azrael is an idiot who trusts what Luther says instead of bringing in Ezekiel for the powerful mind-probing powers he is especially known for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2929760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 The handling of special characters in the current 4E codex is just plain bad anyways. The background is little better, as it tosses out every scrap of information written acknowledging that more than just Azrael knows about Luther. Either the Watchers act as Azrael's psychic truthsayers, or Azrael is an idiot who trusts what Luther says instead of bringing in Ezekiel for the powerful mind-probing powers he is especially known for. The Watchers are a very unexplored part of the DA mythos. We know they are anti-Chaos and super psychic and we also know they are not warriors. So how excatly do they aid the DAs? What is their function apart from carrying the SGMs battle gear? Really why are they there? I think their main function could be to guard the biggest secrets and ensure the transfer of knowledge to those that are deemed worthy without the need of a DA chain of command interfering - thus potentially jeopardizing the secret itself. They could also be tending the needs of Luther and maintain his environment and also aid the SGM with the interrrogation process protecting him from misinterpertations of Luther's words. They'll probably also protect the secret of the existance of Luther. This is a very safe way to go because noone looks stupid. The SGM get psychic aid in the interrogation, Zeke has a perfectly good reason for not knowing as his psychic ability is outclassed by the Watchers (no problems there) and no need to bring in Sapphon because, well, he is not needed. I very much like the fact that the cicles within circles theme never ends. That there are things unknown to the Inner Circle but known to the SGM alone! I even like the fact that the SGM is oblivious to the Lion's resting place so there are secrets that even the SGM is oblivious to. I love the paranoia of this whole deal. But that's just me. :rolleyes: EDIT: It could also be possible that the Watchers influence the choice of the SGM as regards his replacement - thus ensuring the most "capable" DA takes the office every time. They could alos be responsible to presenting the deseased SGMs choice to the Chapter officials (actually how exactly is the former SGMs choice presented has not been officially disclosed - especially as it is possible to have a "sudden death" incidence in combat). So a number of holes in the background can be filled without breaking exisitng fuff. It works, it's in-character and it is fluffy... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2929801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I very much like the fact that the cicles within circles theme never ends. That there are things unknown to the Inner Circle but known to the SGM alone! I even like the fact that the SGM is oblivious to the Lion's resting place so there are secrets that even the SGM is oblivious to. I love the paranoia of this whole deal. But that's just me. :D A hand stretches out of the shadows resting atop the shoulder of Captain Semper:Fear not brother,you are not alone.We are paranoid lovers too. Robes and hoods for everyone! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2929864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 They could also be tending the needs of Luther and maintain his environment and also aid the SGM with the interrrogation process protecting him from misinterpertations of Luther's words. They'll probably also protect the secret of the existance of Luther. Problem is...if the watchers were actively aiding in his interrogation, it would be over in days or weeks...unless they're merely protecting the interrogator against error, rather than actively aiding in the extraction of truth. Why??? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2930038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 They could also be tending the needs of Luther and maintain his environment and also aid the SGM with the interrrogation process protecting him from misinterpertations of Luther's words. They'll probably also protect the secret of the existance of Luther. Problem is...if the watchers were actively aiding in his interrogation, it would be over in days or weeks...unless they're merely protecting the interrogator against error, rather than actively aiding in the extraction of truth. Why??? Good point. But what is the knowledge that Luther possess that the SGM doesn't know? I mean the SGM knows already a great deal. What he doesn't know and Luther might be able to help (at least partially) is what happened to the Lion. This is a secret that the Watchers do know and have not felt they should share so far. So "helping" the SGM with the interrogation could actually mean protecting the secrets!!! More paranoia anybody? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2930093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Due to his connection with the warp the DA or rather the SGM uses him as an oracle. Also he tries to make him repent.If the arch heretic repents it would be a major step to cleanse our shame. EDIT:He also claims that the Lion will return soon and in fact that he is near,so it would be good to know his location if he confers it no? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241353-i-found-him/page/3/#findComment-2930137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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