Regular Assault Marines or Vanguard Veteran Squad

[bmcsw007]

I was thinking on how to paint my primed Assault Marines today and relized I have the parts to convert them to a Vanguard Veteran Squad. I did this same conversion with some extra Space Marines, making them my Sternguard. I am wondering if this would be tactically benificial. I only have five Assault Marines, so the Vanguard Squad would be my only fast attack option. Pros and Cons?

[DarkGuard]

5 man Assault squads are hardly worth it, so I'd be inclined to turn 5 Assault Marines into Vanguard. Give the Sergeant either a relic blade or a power fist/thunder hammer, one guy a single lightning claw, a third guy either a lightning claw if the Sergeant took a PF/TH or a PF/TH if he took the relic blade, and then a storm shield, maybe two for the last two guys. Couple of bullet shields with at least one able to soak up power weapons and low AP shots and a few guys capable of dishing out the dirt in combat. Either give them jump packs or stick them in a Razorback, either way a decent ret for a character.

 

Not the most competitive choice, but if you work at it they may do well, and should be fun to play with.

[Purge]

I have both an old metal assault squad with jump packs of 5 that comes out to almost 300pts with fists, power weapons and plasma pistols compared to a 5 man assault squad with jump packs one fist at about 125 pts. They are equally effective if used properly. Being only 5 man squad they are a counter attack option when a tac squad gets bogged down or your heavy weapons are assulted. The extra points for a vanguard squad with jump packs isn't worth thier cost due to only having one wound each. Having a fully loaded squad rarly will make back the extra points. They are scarry but tend to get avoided and then shot up. the standard 5 man squad is ignored for the most part and tends to push a faltering flank back in the direction you want to go. The vanguard squad is very effective to the point that they wipe out almost everything in thier assult phase leaving them open to get shot.

 

Now what do I actually use? Both! I just like the assult squads. B)

[bmcsw007]

A little frustrating no one has pros or cons. Does anyone actually use Assault Marines?

[Something Wycked]

Assault Squad-

Pros: Cheap, mobile, slightly flexible wargear

Cons: Only 5 models, very easy to kill off, not very potent in assault at all

 

Vangaurd-

Pros: Mobile, highly flexible wargear, fairly potent in assault if equipped correctly

Cons: Moderately to highly expensive, only 5 models, very easy to fairly easy to kill off

 

I used to use Assault Marines. They disappointed me every time I used them. I used to use Vanguard and experienced the same result.

 

Now I use GK Interceptors specifically because of the deficiencies of Assault Marines.

[bmcsw007]

I've also been disappoingted everytime I use my assault squad. That is why I was thinking of converting them to Veterans. I could also convert them to five more Sternguard vets or Legion of the Damned...

[Something Wycked]

Vanguard do the same job slightly better for a lot more in cost. If they were my models, they'd become Sternguard because I'm a very shooting-oriented player.

 

That said, there are some Vanguard pros around here (like DarkGuard who posted above) who can make excellent use of a small unit of correctly-equipped Vanguard. You may want to try a game or three where you proxy their gear for a loadout like the one DG suggests and see if they do any better for you.

[Schultzhoffen]

Assault Marines:

 

Pros: Cheap, useful counter attack v GEQ, 12"move

Cons: Poor v MEQs, die as easily as Tacs.

 

Vanguard:

 

Pros: Can be moderately good in CC (depending on weapons).

Cons: Overpriced, die like flies to high Ap shooting. Can become a fragile points' sink very quickly.

 

Marines are not really a CC army, they are a balanced, shooty army with CC elements. Best CC options are the obvious Assault Terminators in a LRC (yawn) or CC scouts - cheap, cheeful and pack as much punch as assault marines. Can be used as infantry or with LSStorm.

 

Plus, Scouts are scoring.

 

Your army needs to be built around a Vanguard squad if you want them to really achieve anything, ie 10 Tooled up VG in a LRaider, etc (but this is horribly expensive).

 

If you want some counter attack to protect tanks, devs, etc, 5-7 Assault Marines in back play are fine, just don't expect miracles from them.

[thade]

OKAY. Okay. I'm here! Sorry. <3

 

Hi, my name's Thade. And I love Vanguard.

 

That said, I do use five man assault squads; I never use a Vanguard smaller than six as that's the minimum I can get my standard configuration into.

 

Five Man Assault Team

 

It's enough to get a flamer, and I do sometimes run them at five with a flamer, power fist, and a jump packs. They're highly mobile and easy to hide behind other APCs and terrain, and they're my calvary: if a tac squad is about to get into (or is already in) an assault, the Assault Squad zips in to counter-charge. I never send them in alone. Their purpose is to supplement assaults or to offer pinch-hitter support fire. They're cheap, but - at five men - they can't sustain losses, so they are NOT a rush-in-ahead-of-everybody-and-attack-team. But then, few units are.

 

Five Man Vanguard

 

When I field Vanguard, I field them sans JPs and I stick them in a transport (a LR if I mean business, or a Rhino if they're strictly support skirmishes for my tacticals). Even when I "mean business" I still move them in with a tac team or two. At five, I'd give one a power fist, one or two single lightning claws, and at least one storm shield on a guy with NO OTHER UPGRADES (to soak the stray power fist/weapon wound you're bound to take). At five men, they - like the Assault team - are not really built for holding a unit on their own. They're far better leveraged charging in alongside a tac squad...or into an assault where one of your units is locked in and you want to break them free.

 

Five Man Flying Vanguard

 

Same as above (support, not a literal "vanguard", i.e. they don't go up in deep and alone) but you now have jump pack mobility (they become calvary) and you get Heroic Intervention. There are two ways to use Heroic Intevention.

 

There's the noob way: Deep Strike them in behind your opponent's lines and (try to) eat a unit. They may succeed in doing so, with style. They will then become the focus target and will get annihilated by focus-fire.

 

There's what I consider the better way: they come in behind or very near your lines; if they then get to assault something, double-bonus. DS is a great way to dynamically deploy them and thus support one of your flanks that you may not know early-game will need support. HI means that - when they come in - they have a small (but significant) chance of being able to slam right into melee. All sorts of good can come from that: they may kill the target, save your tac squad, or even remain locked so they don't get shot at while being slightly out of position.

 

Never feel you need to DS/HI your Vanguard. You decide they're DSing if/when you put them in Reserves, and you decide on HI when they deploy via DS. The rules allow you to be dynamic, so keep that in mind. If they don't HI, they can shoot or run when they land. That might get them into cover or otherwise keep them from getting focus-fired if you're short on places to drop them. :( Finally, when you DS, if one of the models is going to land on terrain and have to take a Dangerous Terrain test, remember that the marine with the Storm Shield gets an invuln save should he fail that test. (Not always a risk I'd take - you have at least one marine sans upgrades - but something to consider.)

 

I hope this is helpful.

[thade]

I've also been disappoingted everytime I use my assault squad. That is why I was thinking of converting them to Veterans. I could also convert them to five more Sternguard vets or Legion of the Damned...

So, when I first started using Assault Squads I was also disappointed. I submit this is because I was using them incorrectly.

 

Assault Squads are not intended to charge on ahead and alone, especially in the vanilla codex. They are intended to serve as a "counter-charge calvary". Hop them around behind your lines then jump them in when one of your tac squads gets into hot water. Play a game of patience with them, not a game of aggression.

 

Vanguard are just like this and more expensive when they die. Be conservative with how much gear you put on them and patient and careful with how you apply them on the table.

 

If you really, really, really want your assault squads to get in and go crazy, accept one of two things: 1. The squad will die fast and furious. 2. You should probably go Blood Angels and field a few Sanguine Priests; the FNP is a massive benefit.

[DarkGuard]

A little frustrating no one has pros or cons. Does anyone actually use Assault Marines?

 

I used Assault Marines, then dropped them for lack of damage in favour of Sternguard. Now I run both Sternguard and Honour Guard. I like Assault squads, and would consider using a small 5 man Assault squad, which follows a similar line of thought as my Command squad, just with jump packs.

 

Pros and Cons?

 

Assault Marines are mobile, they can get around without needing to buy mobility. They are cheapish, they come with a decent amount of attacks in combat on the charge. Cons, they lack mass power weapons, and only have two choices of special weapon, plasma pistols or flamers, melta would be awesome. Can't charge after deep striking which makes people run them, where they're vulnerable to anti-infantry firepower.

 

Vanguard are cheaper than Sternguard, and have a whole host of wargear options. But you have to but them mobility, and if you go overboard on wargear they can get very expensive. Otherwise, properly equipped they cut through most units, though many people will argue that Hammernators and Honour Guard would be a better use of points.

[Xaraon]

I have had a 5 man assault squad and a 10 man Assault Squad and having a full ten man squad is quite useful, even more so with a Chaplain.

 

Pros: They can last longer in combat and deal more damage in it as well. Now you get either 2 flamers or 2 plasma pistols. More bodies so your fist, if you take one, gets a swing at a IC for a knockout.

 

Cons: More points. People have already covered everything else.

 

I have not used Vanguard Squads yet, so take this with much salt.

 

Pros: Can hurt your opponet lots if you can get a drop pod with locator beacon down (with sternguard combat squaded) to attack weak units, tanks with melta, infantry with flamers, heavy infantry with plasma, then deep strike later without scattering to perform HI or run to cover.

 

Cons:They can hurt you as much as your opponent. Expensive. What previous posts pointed out.

[Pigchampion]

I'm actually planning to use a kitted-out Vanguard squad of five with a relic blade, two single lighting-claws and two thunder hammers. Every guy also gets a stormshield. :lol: Of course it will be a casual list for laughs and giggles, but it's also fun from a modeling perspective. Something like this:

 

HQ:

Chaplain, jump pack 115 pts

 

TROOPS:

Tactical (10, Missile-launcher, meltagun) + Rhino 210 pts

Tactical (10, Missile-launcher, meltagun) + Rhino 210 pts

Tactical (5) + LasPlas Razorback 165

Tactical (5) + LasPlas Razorback 165

 

ELITE:

Dreadnought, plasma cannon, drop pod, locator beacon 160 pts

Rifleman 125 pts

 

FAST ATTACK:

Vanguard veteran squad 125:

+ Jump packs

+ Sgt. w/ relic blade, storm shield

+ Veteran w/ lightning claw, storm shield

+ Veteran w/ lightning claw, storm shield

+ Veteran w/ thunder hammer, storm shield

+ Veteran w/ thunder hammer, storm shield

= 355

 

Land Speeder HF/MM (2) 140 pts

Land Speeder Typhoon (2) 180

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

DakkaPred 85

DakkaPred 85

 

TOTAL: 2000

 

A doze of crazy is sometimes needed.

[thade]

A doze of crazy is sometimes needed.

This certainly cannot be disputed. However, may I humbly recommend dropping one of the thunder hammers, adding two more veterans, and putting storm shields only on guys without upgrades. Also, drop the Jump Packs and give them a Land Raider.

 

That is so close to my old vanilla configuration that it makes me happy.

[Something Wycked]

I knew you'd get here at some point thade :D

 

You're right that I probably used them wrong, but I expected something named an "Assault Marine" to be able to... well... Assault. Unfortunately, they're just Tacticals with a Jump Pack and BP+CCW. I'd probably be happier with them if they had Bolters instead. You know, sort of like Interceptors :D

 

At one point, I used a 10 man Vanguard squad with dual Lightning Claws on the Sergeant, and they used HI and got the charge on a Black Templar 20 man blob (I love Locator Beacons)- the only special assault gear in the BT unit was a single fist. The Vanguards gave as good as they got- which is to say, over the course of about 5 assault phases, the 10 of them managed to kill 10 Black Templars before being wiped out. Terrible. -_-

 

Granted, my dice didn't favor me at all in that fight but they never favor me in assaults. Which might explain partly why I'm so enamored with shooting :)

[thade]

Hey, man. ;) Vanguard is startin to get its bad rep back around here for some reason; I can't let that happen!

 

You're right that I probably used them wrong, but I expected something named an "Assault Marine" to be able to... well... Assault. Unfortunately, they're just Tacticals with a Jump Pack and BP+CCW.

This is on the money, man. Assault Marines and Vanguard Marines are very poorly named. B) They both excel as light cavalry: they are fast, reasonably capable in melee, and have solid shooting they can leverage over an impressive radius. I don't call them "Assault Marines", actually; I call them "Jump Teams".

 

Two tac squads can both be supported by a single jump team. The jump team need not charge at all for an entire game; it simply uses its mobility to drop its templates and bolt pistol shots onto any unit a single salvo of rapid fire won't shrink enough. The added bonus here is they can also use their mobility to intercept or counter-charge (to rescue a tac squad).

 

I try very, very hard to never charge an assault squad into an assault alone; an assault team + a tactical squad VS a single tactical squad = I'm going to win in a reasonable time span. A single assault squad VS a tac squad will probably win, but it'll take time. (Tac Squad vs Tac Squad, I think we've all been there. They kind of chat and share smokes while the power fists knock out a marine on each side per turn.)

 

Vanguard can take a few power weapons along for the ride, so they actually will on their own (with little outside support) kill an enemy ranged unit in reasonable time; naturally I support them with another unit charging in if I can: the more, the merrier. My Vanguards (as people know by now, I bet) seldom have jump packs...but there will often be even just a five man jump team (my lil skirmishers) that I will charge in alongside the Vanguard. Everyone of my close-range engagement units (tacticals, assault, stern, vanguard) have a power fist in the unit. Power Fists win combats; the more I put in that combat, the more likely I'll sweep and be out in one phase. If I want them to stay locked for some reason, I won't charge with anything more than I have to...but if I can help it, the Land Raider interposes itself between the assault target and their support (other enemy units), so them Sweeping through quickly is often not so bad.

[OptiMAT]

I had the same discussion with myself after purchasing a bunch of troops and moving into my first fast attack units.

 

I went with Vanguard with Thunder Hammers. No the most tactically diverse unit but with a Chaplain leading them to call them the Army's Hammer would be an understatement. They are a little hit and miss... some games I have them roll from target to target on a never-ending spree of squished skulls and minimal loses, other games they only just about make their cost. Which you can just put down to dice but with 5 Thunder Hammers in a squad in probably a little more than that. A regular Assault squad is the safer bet I imagine, lower costs, not too much loss of stat and the weapon options are only slightly worse considering their purpose.

 

It's just cool to field Vanguards, and that's why I took them. As others have said, they're great for tipping the balance of an assault in your favour but as stand-alone units for CQC to only be able to afford 5 in most games they're a little short of the specialisation required to take on tougher opponents.

 

That probably doesn't help much but just a thought to consider. Unless your army really calls for the expensive (but powerful) weapon options available to the whole squad of marines (bearing in mind a std. Assault Squad Sarge can take most of them) then you're probably better off with a standard Assault Squad.

[thade]

I kind of want to field a "hammer-vanguard" (I have the bits to do so) but I can't bring myself to. Vanguard with all hammers suffer from going last in combat and they have only power armor to protect them...one nice thing about Lit Claws is that I can swarm them with I4 (or better with the BA dex) armor-ignoring wounds and potentially drop their power fist out of the equation.

 

If you go so far as to throw storm shields on them - even withholding jump packs - they are more expensive than hammernators. This is because you are paying for their versatility: they can ride in Rhinos, they have frag grenades, and they can sweep; moreover, they have the options to take multiple kinds of weapons, configuring themselves in ways the Assault Terminators cannot. You pay for that...so you really should take advantage of it.

 

Mind you, a unit of Vanguard with only thunder hammers is thematically pretty awesome, so I think they merit fielding on that basis alone. :cuss And they may surprise you; while their applications are more limited than a general vanguard, they hit hard. My usual vanguard has enough bodies, FNP, storm shields, and I5 attacks to safely engage two enemy tac squads on their own; a unit of five TH vanguard I'd never send against anything alone and (despite their weapon of choice) I'd use them as a scalpel: very picky counter-charging of choice enemy units. I might actually field them as a five man, 3-4 hammers, maybe a storm shield, and jump packs, just to ensure I can put them where I want them.

 

The double-bonus here is that this thunder hammer unit has another use...super risky but really what people like Vanguard for: HI vehicle hunting. Let your opponent deploy first and - if they have some annoying looooong range shelling artillery, you can HI with these vanguard and pop that sucker, hiding them behind its wreckage (depending on whether your opponent deployed and/or withheld reserves to account for your doing this). A pocket case, but a use case nonetheless.

 

ADDENDUM: Actually, the more I think about it, in an effort to scrounge for points I would probably use this configuration:

• Thunder Hammer
  
• Power Fist
  
• Power Fist
  
• Power Fist OR vanilla; possibly melta bombs.
  
• Storm Shield; possibly melta bombs.
  
• All with jump packs.
  

This unit is running pricey and they need jump packs, I think, in order to ensure they can be where you need them to be and to help them escape at need. With five, they won't be able to whether really any shooting (even one or two losses severely restricts their applications) but without the JPs they'd basically be slogging bullet magnets...which, honestly, is something that Hammernators are far more effective at being. I am very curious to try this now, though.

[OptiMAT]

Can't deny, those are all perfectly valid and perfect counter arguments, but I didn't pick them that way to be tactically sound so it's all good in the hood. :)

 

So much fun to field, even if they do end up as a bullet magnet. This will probably always be the case with vanguard though, as any power-weapon heavy CQC vanguard setup could arguably be done better using terminator assault squads. All I like about the Vangaurd is the ability to strengthen an assault quickly where terminators would be walking.

 

Made me seriously consider a termie assault squad as a back up to deploy though when you've broken it down like that.

[Marine Errant]

Hi all ;-)

I must admit to having never used VV in a game but I am in the process of building 2 five man squads of them (not quite decided how to arm them as of yet but can use more or less anything - you would not believe the size of my bits box after collecting marines for 24 years......) but ALWAYS use a ten man assault squad with power fist and 2 flamers, accompanied by a chaplain. I have lost count of the number of times these guys have won games for me!!!!!

I must admit that my dice rolling with them usually tends towards the good but the rerolls provided by the chaplain make them capable of taking on most MEQs on their own, or at least in my experience. I tend to use them as a mobile threat, and quite often spend 2 or even 3 turns moving them into prime position. They usually take out 2 units per game, but have taken more than that before. The mobile threat they provide can be quite useful but I find that people often underestimate them and ignore them for other targets, much to their dismay once they get into combat :)

True, they are of limited use against TEQs and the like but they rarely let me down and they don't cost that many points, even taking the chappie into account.

[thade]

If you find your assault squad is winning games for you, you'll likely enjoy the Vanguard. :)

[Marine Errant]

If you find your assault squad is winning games for you, you'll likely enjoy the Vanguard. :)

 

I sincerely hope so for the points cost ;)

[thade]

If you find your assault squad is winning games for you, you'll likely enjoy the Vanguard. :mellow:

 

I sincerely hope so for the points cost ^_^

Alright, here's my VV building pattern:

• No model gets more than one upgrade, no matter what the upgrade is.
  
• Each model that has an offensive upgrade, take either a model with no upgrades or a model with only a Storm Shield.
  
• Take at least one S8 weapon (power fist or thunder hammer).
  
• Take single lightning claws - not pairs. Do not take power weapons (unless you own no lightning claws).
  
• Take at least one model with a storm shield.
  

Based on that, here's an example vanguard I take: PF, 2-3 vets with single lit claws, 1-2 vets with storm shields, fill out to 7 or 8 vets using vanilla marines. The vanilla marines (and marines with storm shields) are there to soak wounds so the guys with upgrades can endure. Note that when I take this unit, I do not take jump packs: I give them either a Rhino or a Land Raider. I also pair them with an IC (and, as I use the BA dex, they get an apothecary).

 

I do not believe a Razorback is a good transport for most Vanguard configurations, as I think the transport is too small to fit a reasonably sized vanguard unit.

 

Here's another: 10 Vanguard vets with jump packs, one power fist. These guys hit like a squad of orks with 36 attacks on the charge and a power fist (because I always bring a power fist to a fist fight). Worthwhile to throw a storm shield or two in there, so you have some guys that can possibly shut down return power weapon/fist attacks from the units they try to maul.

[Bannus]

• Take single lightning claws - not pairs. Do not take power weapons (unless you own no lightning claws).
  

I'm not sure I can agree with this. While a single lightning clasw has its merits, don't discount the extra attack that the power weapon provides when paired with a pistol. This is especially true when facing opponents with comparable or better WS. Sometimes it is more advantageous to have more opportunities to hit than the ability to reroll wounds.

[thade]

Bannus, I pretty firmly believe that a single wound model with no invuln save is a very poor place to spend 30+ points. The only place I take double-lit claws are on Captains (and, potentially, terminator squads). Power Armor just isn't sufficient to cover that model. For those 15 points, you get only one more attack...or you get another marine that comes with more attacks and the ability to take a hit for a guy that does have a lightning claw.

 

I always found my Vanguard with dual-weapon loadouts were expensive and never made their points back...and really, that's much of the source of hate around Vanguard. I really recommend going light on upgrades so you don't feel it so much when you invariably lose one.